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[Fall 2014 Budokai] Gohan against Dabura: Supa Pimp Fighta Unos or Electric Lt. Surge Ver. 2!; Brofist vs SSJ3Vegeta
Topic Started: Oct 14 2014, 08:34 PM (2,271 Views)
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Ssj3 Vegeta
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Ok I'll start off with I think Gohan was a normal Ssj until you see him do a power burst I think that's the point where he went ssj 2 also I think the reason there weren't any sparks is because akira toriyama sometimes forgets them.
once upon a time there lived a man, this man had all the awensers to every question man made, however he could not speak, when he awoke one morning he found two men discussing a topic he was all too familiar with so as usual he tried to explain the awenser to them, but they just ignored him and carried on at that momment a box came along and told the man:
"If you really want people to hear your ideas even if you are right to cant just tell them they must serch for it, if you like you can live inside me and people can come and ask me there questions and i shall respond with your awensers"
The man nodded and lived inside the box,people constantly consult the box for awensers but sometimes dont believe it,You know what the mans name was:
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The first problem is that I think you are using the anime as evidence. In the anime, Toei is very inconsistent with the way it animates its forms. For example in Movie 10 Gohan doesn't have any sparks on him. Yet we know from production material that he is an SSJ2. They not only base his design off of the SSj2 at the Budokai but they also give several artwork pieces that differentiate between SSJ and SSJ2 Gohan.

Whether you think Gohan was an SSj2 or not against Dabura in the anime is up to you.
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In the manga, its very clear he's a Super Saiyan. Akira Toriyama was very consistent with the way he did the forms. The SSJ2 has always had lighting around the form at some point and its become the trademark definition of the form. Not only that but we see that same lightning with Gohan during the budokai and with Goku and Vegeta. In short, both before and after the fight with Dabura we see that lightning. We see it with Goku when he shows it against Fat Boo. We see it when Vegeta fights Kid Boo.

The only time that lightning was never apparent is either in a quick burst of power (Such as Goku's battle against Yakon which was only a panel) or when charging up some forms of ki, such as the battle between SSj2 Kid Gohan and Zenkai Perfect Cell. I mean you would be hard pressed to find an image of an SSj2 in the manga that appeared in multiple panels that didn't have at least one spark around them.

Another thing to note and something that you wouldn't see in the anime is the aura design. It's often overlooked but Toriyama often does specific aura designs for his forms. The SSJ form has a much more calm aura around it, almost wavy to a degree. The SSj2 aura however is incredibly thick and spiky. You'll notice that in the manga Gohan against Dabura doesn't have that spiky aura. His aura is a lot more flame like.

Although highly contradicting as we saw Gohan transform at the Budokai. The battle against Dabura seems to suggest that Gohan can't reach into his SSj2 form at the time. He needs that anger and for whatever reason Gohan was never able to attain that level of anger he did against Cell.
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Ssj3 Vegeta
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We'll in relation to what your saying about the sparks didn't dabura when he charged up to full power have sparks around him.
Also how about we look at it this way daburas was around the same pewer level as SPC right and it took enraged ssj2 teen gohan + goku and abit of help from vegeta to kill him.
So gohan slacked and as stated is weaker than teen gohan who beat cell at ssj2 so this means
Gohan would have to be at least ssj2 to go up agenst full power dabura who is equal to sp cell
Who was at the time stronger than his ssj2 teen gohan form witch was stronger than his adult body.

In other words:

Full-power dabura = Sp cell = ssj2 teen gohan > ssj2 gohan

He would at least have to be ssj2 to rival his power.
once upon a time there lived a man, this man had all the awensers to every question man made, however he could not speak, when he awoke one morning he found two men discussing a topic he was all too familiar with so as usual he tried to explain the awenser to them, but they just ignored him and carried on at that momment a box came along and told the man:
"If you really want people to hear your ideas even if you are right to cant just tell them they must serch for it, if you like you can live inside me and people can come and ask me there questions and i shall respond with your awensers"
The man nodded and lived inside the box,people constantly consult the box for awensers but sometimes dont believe it,You know what the mans name was:
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Ssj3 Vegeta
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Ssj3 Vegeta
Oct 16 2014, 09:33 PM
We'll in relation to what your saying about the sparks didn't dabura when he charged up to full power have sparks around him.
Also how about we look at it this way daburas was around the same pewer level as SPC right and it took enraged ssj2 teen gohan + goku and abit of help from vegeta to kill him.
So gohan slacked and as stated is weaker than teen gohan who beat cell at ssj2 so this means
Gohan would have to be at least ssj2 to go up agenst full power dabura who is equal to sp cell
Who was at the time stronger than his ssj2 teen gohan form witch was stronger than his adult body.

In other words:

Full-power dabura = Sp cell = ssj2 teen gohan > ssj2 gohan

He would at least have to be ssj2 to rival his power like he did.
once upon a time there lived a man, this man had all the awensers to every question man made, however he could not speak, when he awoke one morning he found two men discussing a topic he was all too familiar with so as usual he tried to explain the awenser to them, but they just ignored him and carried on at that momment a box came along and told the man:
"If you really want people to hear your ideas even if you are right to cant just tell them they must serch for it, if you like you can live inside me and people can come and ask me there questions and i shall respond with your awensers"
The man nodded and lived inside the box,people constantly consult the box for awensers but sometimes dont believe it,You know what the mans name was:
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Dabura never powered up in the manga.

Secondly sparks help to indicate the form of an SSJ being used. The SSJ and the SSJ2 form share many similar properties and don't have major difference in the way base form or SSJ3 has. SSj2 has specific characteristics that I've pointed out last post. If a character does not have that attributes they are not SSJ2. Having sparks doesn't mean your an SSJ2. In the same that Nappa having sparks doesn't make him an SSj2. There's obviously more attributes to the SSj2 than just sparks. It's just that sparks are the most common and well defined feature of an SSJ2.

Dabura is never stated to as strong or more powerful than SPC. He is merely stated to be around as powerful as Cell in general and later on Goku remarks that after seeing Dabura's magic, Daubra might be stronger than he let on. That doesn't stop Dabura from struggling with Gohan and even unable to overpower him with his sword. A Gohan whom as I stated above is clearly showing SSJ qualities in the manga be it from his lack of electricity to his more flame like aura compared to the jagged aura and lighting based SSJ2 that we've seen.

A form denoted both before this fight and after this fight.

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We'll look at these questions I give you:
How come Gohan ,who is fighting some what on par with dabura, hold back a ssj2 form if he could just transform and destroy dabura easier with the power boost?
And if he did hold it back the form wouldn't goku or vegeta comment on him not going full power yet?
Or how come vegeta gets frustrated with gohan about struggling with dabura if he isn't even using ssj2?
And finally after the battle when vegeta gets angry with gohan for letting dabura go and being sloppy in the fight why didn't he tell him he could have just gone Ssj2 and finished him if he wasn't using it?

It's just odd that no one said anything to gohan in or after the fight about not going ssj2 if he wasn't using it that form already.
once upon a time there lived a man, this man had all the awensers to every question man made, however he could not speak, when he awoke one morning he found two men discussing a topic he was all too familiar with so as usual he tried to explain the awenser to them, but they just ignored him and carried on at that momment a box came along and told the man:
"If you really want people to hear your ideas even if you are right to cant just tell them they must serch for it, if you like you can live inside me and people can come and ask me there questions and i shall respond with your awensers"
The man nodded and lived inside the box,people constantly consult the box for awensers but sometimes dont believe it,You know what the mans name was:
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The manga implies that Gohan can't reach into his SSJ2 powers because of his lack of rage. While you can call inconsistency on this what we physically see is what you get. Vegeta also makes several points on the matter. In how Gohan was far far stronger than he was when he fought Cell.

Quote:
 
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”


Nobody's going to deny that Gohan not using SSJ2 is rather contradiction but nothing in the manga suggests him using it. Gohan shares absolutely none of the SSj2 characteristics.

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This here is SSj2 Gohan at the budokai. He has both a distinct intense and spiky aura around him as well as the electricty around him. Every SSJ2 before and after this shares this kind of appearance.

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You can see the same thing here with SSJ2 Goku and likewise you can see his appearance in comparison to SSJ Majin Vegeta down below. There's that significant difference in aura style.

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And then there's Gohan down below there. As you can see he shares the exact same aura and style as SSJ Majin Vegeta but none of the characters of his SSJ2 form as seen above. It's just made clear that Gohan in the end is only fighting in his SSJ form and for whatever reason he never uses his SSJ2 against Dabura. Again which the manga implies is because he lacks rage.
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Father Brofist
Oct 18 2014, 11:33 PM
The manga implies that Gohan can't reach into his SSJ2 powers because of his lack of rage.

But thats incorrect if as you showed in the image that he can without rage because he transformed at will at the budokai to show kibitokai his power and also dabura turned krillen and piccolo to stone, wouldn't that be enough of a reason to use full-power?
once upon a time there lived a man, this man had all the awensers to every question man made, however he could not speak, when he awoke one morning he found two men discussing a topic he was all too familiar with so as usual he tried to explain the awenser to them, but they just ignored him and carried on at that momment a box came along and told the man:
"If you really want people to hear your ideas even if you are right to cant just tell them they must serch for it, if you like you can live inside me and people can come and ask me there questions and i shall respond with your awensers"
The man nodded and lived inside the box,people constantly consult the box for awensers but sometimes dont believe it,You know what the mans name was:
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Quote:
 
Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”



Gohan implies up there that for whatever reason he can't get into the same rage as before. It seems to imply that his SSJ2 power is somehow connected to his rage. It's not like AT forgot because we see the form shortly before and after the battle in the manga. But he seems to have forgotten that he actually used that form in the budokai prior.

But the thing is we're not discussing the contradictions of the manga. We're discussing whether or Gohan used the form or not. And just because its contradiction doesn't mean Gohan used the form. The images I showed you clearly show that difference. You can even see that specific difference between Goku and Vegeta in the other image I sent which clearly differentiates between the SSJ2 (Goku) and the SSJ (Majin Vegeta)

It doesn't matter how contradicting it is. If Gohan doesn't show the characteristics of SSJ2, something which Goku kindly even teaches us later on when he fights Boo. Then there's no reason to think he is an SSJ2. In the same way that, when Fat Boo got taken out of Super Boo, Boo should've reverted to Aku Boo. Instead we get this random Kid Boo. It's a clear contradiction to what should've happened. AKu Boo+Good Boo= Super Boo. Super Boo-Good Boo=Kid Boo lol what?

But we don't claim Kid Boo is Aku Boo, because he has none of the characteristics of Aku Boo.
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But like I said if gohan was only going at ssj and after slacking, being able to fight at equal power
with dabura wouldn't make dabura all that strong in comparison to what he was bigged up to be
If that was the case then he I'd say it would but him a bit above yakon.

But as every one said he is not slightly above yakon he clearly out classes him so for gohan to have a chance he would have to go ssj2.


And to what you said about the sparks and aura ssj2 majin vegeta didn't have sparks in some of the panels against ssj2 goku when he did in others.
Its just a slight in consistencie by AT witch I think happened here aswell with gohan.
once upon a time there lived a man, this man had all the awensers to every question man made, however he could not speak, when he awoke one morning he found two men discussing a topic he was all too familiar with so as usual he tried to explain the awenser to them, but they just ignored him and carried on at that momment a box came along and told the man:
"If you really want people to hear your ideas even if you are right to cant just tell them they must serch for it, if you like you can live inside me and people can come and ask me there questions and i shall respond with your awensers"
The man nodded and lived inside the box,people constantly consult the box for awensers but sometimes dont believe it,You know what the mans name was:
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Dabura was claimed to be at Cell's level of power and then later on Goku makes the remark that after using magic, Dabura might be even stronger. This doesn't change anything from what's said. Considering his actions against Gohan, it just shows that this Dabura is probably at a level that was around the Cell that fought Goku. Or at least weaker than SSJ Kid Gohan and the likes.

Goku and Vegeta treat Dabura as nothing special when he kills Kibito. They speak about how 7 years ago, Dabura would've been a furious opponent to face. But they've gotten stronger now and Dabura who would've been a terrifying opponent in the past, isn't nearly as threatening now.
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---

And to what you said about the sparks and aura ssj2 majin vegeta didn't have sparks in some of the panels against ssj2 goku when he did in others.
Its just a slight in consistencie by AT witch I think happened here aswell with gohan.

Quote:
 
And to what you said about the sparks and aura ssj2 majin vegeta didn't have sparks in some of the panels against ssj2 goku when he did in others.
Its just a slight in consistencie by AT witch I think happened here aswell with gohan.


That's the issue people seem to use when debating the SSj2 form. There are panels when lightning isn't shown. The thing is, lightning is always consistent with the form. It's its prominent marker and so you'll see that lightning around the form consistently. It doesn't mean that one panel without lightning means the form doesn't need it. It's just a consistency matter.

There is one time when a character is clearly using an SSJ2 form and no lightning appears at all during their entire transformation. That was Goku against Yakon and that was one single panel up close to his head. Lightning is very clear an aspect of the SSj2 transformation in the manga. Once again Goku shows us this when he fights Fat Boo.

Plus there is again the issue of the aura style. the SSJ2 has a very jagged aura style, Gohan's aura against Dabura does not.
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Father Brofist
Oct 19 2014, 03:23 PM
Dabura was claimed to be at Cell's level of power and then later on Goku makes the remark that after using magic, Dabura might be even stronger. This doesn't change anything from what's said. Considering his actions against Gohan, it just shows that this Dabura is probably at a level that was around the Cell that fought Goku. Or at least weaker than SSJ Kid Gohan and the likes.

Goku and Vegeta treat Dabura as nothing special when he kills Kibito. They speak about how 7 years ago, Dabura would've been a furious opponent to face. But they've gotten stronger now and Dabura who would've been a terrifying opponent in the past, isn't nearly as threatening now.
---
---

And to what you said about the sparks and aura ssj2 majin vegeta didn't have sparks in some of the panels against ssj2 goku when he did in others.
Its just a slight in consistencie by AT witch I think happened here aswell with gohan.

Quote:
 
And to what you said about the sparks and aura ssj2 majin vegeta didn't have sparks in some of the panels against ssj2 goku when he did in others.
Its just a slight in consistencie by AT witch I think happened here aswell with gohan.


That's the issue people seem to use when debating the SSj2 form. There are panels when lightning isn't shown. The thing is, lightning is always consistent with the form. It's its prominent marker and so you'll see that lightning around the form consistently. It doesn't mean that one panel without lightning means the form doesn't need it. It's just a consistency matter.

There is one time when a character is clearly using an SSJ2 form and no lightning appears at all during their entire transformation. That was Goku against Yakon and that was one single panel up close to his head. Lightning is very clear an aspect of the SSj2 transformation in the manga. Once again Goku shows us this when he fights Fat Boo.

Plus there is again the issue of the aura style. the SSJ2 has a very jagged aura style, Gohan's aura against Dabura does not.
Ok aura wise and lightning wise you have me persuaded

But power wise it's compleat lay illogical that gohan could fight on par with dabura in ssj form he woul have to be ssj2 at least also if he can transform without any noticable cons then he would .

Also he would have to be a ssj2 or goku would have suggested it when he started to struggle slightly with dabura at full power

And as you stated dabura is at Cells level so if it took teen gohan ssj2 teen gohan to beat cell then adolesnt would have to be at least ssj2 to fight on par with dabura.
once upon a time there lived a man, this man had all the awensers to every question man made, however he could not speak, when he awoke one morning he found two men discussing a topic he was all too familiar with so as usual he tried to explain the awenser to them, but they just ignored him and carried on at that momment a box came along and told the man:
"If you really want people to hear your ideas even if you are right to cant just tell them they must serch for it, if you like you can live inside me and people can come and ask me there questions and i shall respond with your awensers"
The man nodded and lived inside the box,people constantly consult the box for awensers but sometimes dont believe it,You know what the mans name was:
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Like I said, you can call it a contradiction to what we see early but the manga seems to imply that for whatever reason Gohan can't attain his rage to transform into an SSj2. Akira Toriyama seems to have gotten the idea that Gohan needs rage to transform. Some people might claim that he was still angry with the incident at Videl but I find that remarkably untruthful because he's acting pretty calm and jovial afterwards once Videl is healed.

You must also understand that in the manga, the fight with Dabura is very short, less than a chapter long and we only see part of it. The only thing that we know from statements given to us is that apparently Gohan is holding his on but from what we hear he's not entirely losing. Meaning he's not technically winning. At this point Vegeta throws his fit, Dabura sees and we get the whole Majin Vegeta business.
Quote:
 


Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”


Dabura was only stated to be as powerful as Cell, never specific form. 7 years ago the Cell that fought Goku alone would've been a fearsome opponent. The only person who was stronger than him was SSJ Kid Gohan and SSJ2 Kid Gohan. Dabura could easily have fit there and filled the requirements of being a real monster 7 years ago. But that was again 7 years ago, the warriors have gotten stronger.

This statement illustrates that here.


Quote:
 
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”


Now let's put it this way. Super Perfect Cell was a guy who was rivaling SSJ2 Kid Gohan in power and was shown well enough to be a very real threat to him. He blew off over half his ki, shattered his arm and nearly killed him. I won't get into an argument who was stronger in the end, but its clear that Zenkai Cell is a very real threat to Gohan. In the subsequent battle against Majin Boo, Piccolo remarks that Majin Vegeta may be stronger than Kid Gohan. Now we know that he is stronger, its stated earlier, but from Piccolo's perspective he can't tell that difference too much. It shows us that there probably isn't a large gap between Kid Gohan and Majin Vegeta/Goku.

So you have SPC who rivals SSJ2 Kid Gohan who (put a larger gap here I think) somewhat rivals Majin Vegeta.

Pre-Majin Vegeta, the guy even weaker than Majin Vegeta, called Dabura weaksauce and mocked Kibito for being a bumbling fool. Do you think Pre-Majin Vegeta would call Zenkai Perfect Cell or SSj2 Kid Gohan weak? Mind you as far as Kid Gohan is concerned everything out of Pre-Majin Vegeta's mouth about him was how strong he was as a brat.
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Ok so first dabura would have to at least be stronger than perfect-form cell or the battle would be over befor it started as that would put dabura=ASSJ Vegeta wich can't be.

Also ssj2 goku and majin vegeta are very above cell because goku could fight pikkon in ssj form and hold his own but pikkon K.O cell in hell (you could say it was just because cell was off guard but that is still quite a hard thing to do as cell as lighting fast reflexes) and dabura is very feared on hell an in the living world so after that there's say dabura is only equal to SPC a gohan without 7 years training might hold hi own at ssj level because he has matured but if dabura really concentrated and wanted to kill him as he did when he went full power gohan would have to use ssj2 (wich he can become as we saw at the Budokai when he showed kibitokai) hold his own and possibly could kill dabura if he outlasted his peak state and the attacked so if you look at it power wise he would have to be his ssj2 state to have a chance at beating dabura
Full-power.
once upon a time there lived a man, this man had all the awensers to every question man made, however he could not speak, when he awoke one morning he found two men discussing a topic he was all too familiar with so as usual he tried to explain the awenser to them, but they just ignored him and carried on at that momment a box came along and told the man:
"If you really want people to hear your ideas even if you are right to cant just tell them they must serch for it, if you like you can live inside me and people can come and ask me there questions and i shall respond with your awensers"
The man nodded and lived inside the box,people constantly consult the box for awensers but sometimes dont believe it,You know what the mans name was:
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