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| Feminism vs. Humanism | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 23 2014, 04:56 PM (2,960 Views) | |
| * Yu Narukami | Sep 23 2014, 10:21 PM Post #31 |
Izanagi!
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Changing the name if the movement > Keeping the name and attempting to 're-educate' In terms of practicality, changing the name is the best option. Why keep principles in a position where they're held back for years when you can present them in a different way and get easier, faster results? |
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| Jet | Sep 23 2014, 10:29 PM Post #32 |
Ruka is a dude
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Giving women the right to vote doesn't mean anything to men? Tad sexist there. Men fight for equal rights too you know. |
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| King Furry | Sep 23 2014, 11:11 PM Post #33 |
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Most feminists are annoying and don't realize that sexism works both ways. |
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| Strawberry | Sep 23 2014, 11:28 PM Post #34 |
Chiaroscuro ♥
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Of course they do. I wasn't generalizing it to all men, but to those who don't see the full spectrum of the issue because they never felt directly victimized by sexism on a wide scale. I'd have to be very stupid to assume only women want gender equality. I'm an animal rights activist and in a shocking twist of events I'm not a squirrel (or am I   ).On a serious note though, I understand I could have elaborated more on that. I didn't mean to say all men don't care about gender equality. But it's true that people tend to care more about issues that feel personal to them. It's been proved that doctors who have been affected by a particular disease or have had their family affected by that same isease are most likely to specifiy in the particular area of medicine that studies said disease -- and this is just a broad example of what I'm trying to say With that said, there are many women who don't understand how gender equality is still incredibly relevant and wish not to identify as feminists while a lot of men classify themselves as feminists publicly (including some of my favorite male celebrities like Johnny Depp and Jim Sturgess). So it's not a simple, unidirectional logic at all. Sorry if that's how it came across in that particular quote of mine. @Drew But presenting the same principles in a different way is precisely what re-educating people on feminism is all about. Making them see how the myths and stereotypes surrounding it are not what defines the movement. Your single, isolated problem with the movement is what you think the name represents. And that perception is clouded by the way society tried to push feminism as a negative, exacerbated and out of control form of expression, simply because it came from women! Because women were taking the power on something and society wasn't ready for it. Feminism IS what originated the active exercise of gender equality in the first place and changing its name is not doing anything to help it, it's simply dismissing it as the important movement it was by saying "here, take the same principles, different name, and let's forget about that mess of lunatic women standing up for their rights". It's ultimately perpetuating the demeaning way people were taught to look at it and not changing it like you think it would. I wish I could more objectively make you see how that negative layer would go hand in hand with trying to create an alternative movement to replace feminism. Unfortunately, I can't. But luckily I believe the media is catching up on this issue and I hope to see it progress the way I hope and think it will. |
  ♪ ♥ ♫ Across The Universe
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| * Yu Narukami | Sep 23 2014, 11:37 PM Post #35 |
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Izanagi!
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I suppose I just don't understand it. How can a simple change of name be so damaging? Even with a changed name, I would remember the struggle of early feminists and what they went through, and so would everyone who cares enough about it to remember. Changing the name wouldn't damage feminism nearly as much as the 'radicals' who've already spread their toxic views all around. How about this proposition; We keep the feminist movement alive, but introduce a new movement that presents the same views. That'd be a good way of seeing how much influence the term actually has on people Edited by Yu Narukami, Sep 23 2014, 11:37 PM.
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| Strawberry | Sep 23 2014, 11:51 PM Post #36 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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Because the name feminism refers specifically to the movement that allowed gender equality to become a tangible goal for society and as much as you may think the name isn't appropriate it IS what it is called and the only reason it's even an issue in the first place is because it has the audacity to refer to the female gender directly, which is ridiculous since, again, most names we have to define our species are masculine and nobody is trying to change them because it's not a problem (just as much as the word feminism isn't a problem, it's what we make of it that has the potential to become the problem). The only thing you're eradicating from feminism by changing the name is the historical expression behind it, which includes the bravery of those who fought to make equality (more) possible, and that answers question number 2. Say what you will about it, there's just no way that replacing the name of a movement like feminism won't have a historical impact closely associated with sexism, which is supposedly what you (and I) don't want. I don't understand the third question whatsoever. This isn't a pity party and I'd never want to turn it into one. I feel this boils down to different perspectives on the anthropological nature of the issue more than anything. @Drew I understand you only have good intentions, but the truth of the matter is that it wasn't the radicals that made the word toxic, it was the fact that a lot of those radicals were women in a sexist world. That's where the real problem lies. Like I said, most political movements have had/still have radicalism and we're not debating whether or not changing their name is pertinent. |
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| * Yu Narukami | Sep 23 2014, 11:57 PM Post #37 |
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Izanagi!
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Could you elaborate on that? You wouldn't say that they were justified in saying what they've said, would you? |
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| Jet | Sep 23 2014, 11:59 PM Post #38 |
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Ruka is a dude
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Changing the name wouldn't do anything. The radicals already hide under the guise of equality and that wouldn't change. Unfortunately due to the somewhat one-sided harsh treatment towards women, men today won't be heard quite as easily as women when voicing their own concerns. Even when their own circumstances due to discrimination may be far worse than many women. That's why many men feel excluded from "feminist movements". Issues like a significantly higher suicide rate among men aren't heard as much which is a shame because it's a real problem. I've lost too many mates in the last few years because society wanted them to be someone they weren't. |
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| Strawberry | Sep 24 2014, 12:10 AM Post #39 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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@Drew No, but just like a lot of gay people don't defend having radicals parading around as walking stereotypes of the LGBT community and making them seem unidimensional and caricatured; just like a lot of animal rights supporters don't defend having radicals throwing bloody meat onto fashion models on the runway in between yells of protest as they feel it discredits the cause and doesn't help getting their message across; just like a lot of atheists don't believe in being irreducible and condescending to all forms of religion expression... a lot of feminists also don't associate with the radicals within the movement, but unlike the previous movements and ideologies I mentioned before, nobody is trying to change any of the previous names simply because that's not what's important! @Jet I'm sorry to hear that and I agree that sexism towards men and their role on society is very real and needs to be addressed more. Edited by Strawberry, Sep 24 2014, 12:12 AM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Sep 24 2014, 12:16 AM Post #40 |
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Izanagi!
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Well, all I can say is good luck with the whole re-education process. If you want it to really have an impact, you'll have to find a way to counter the socialization from home and the media. Especially with the internet being so prevalent in recent times. |
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| Jet | Sep 24 2014, 12:22 AM Post #41 |
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Ruka is a dude
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Also Strawberry. People were targeting me and not my girlfriend in Lisbon. Lots of drug offers. 16 in two days in fact. Just sexism. |
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Sep 24 2014, 12:30 AM Post #42 |
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I don't think anyone is arguing that sexism toward men doesn't exist. |
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| Jet | Sep 24 2014, 12:42 AM Post #43 |
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Ruka is a dude
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And? I never said anything to the contrary. |
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| Copy_Ninja | Sep 24 2014, 12:47 AM Post #44 |
Novacane for the pain
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Horrible generalisation that adds nothing to the topic. Feminists aren't just the annoying man-haters that roam the depths of Tumblr. In fact, they are very much a small minority that don't represent the whole. I made a topic about this actually: http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8492809/1/ My internet isn't reliable enough to get through 3 pages quickly so I apologise if I'm just repeating what was already said. I think anyone who uses Humanism in place of Feminism doesn't understand what the two words mean. They aren't even similar or about the same thing. Feminism is about gender issues, humanism is about secularism. That being said, there are people who want "Equalist" in place of feminist. I understand the arguments. Some people think feminism is a little exclusionary by focusing on one gender and now has negative connotations because of the actions of the minority. I don't really agree with them though. The reason for the name is because women are still the focus of the majority of issues. It also has the weight of history behind it. Feminist movements have lead to huge changes in the past. I think the context of the word carrys a lot more weight in that context as opposed to the Tumblr variety some people know it as today. I also disagree with the notion that feminism is generally viewed negatively. It's not. It has a vocal opposition but it's not as widespread as you might think. Being online can have that sort of effect sometimes. The online opposition does not represent society as a whole. |
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| Strawberry | Sep 24 2014, 12:49 AM Post #45 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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I think a huge part of the problem here comes from the false understanding that a feminist man is 1) a feminine man (I know this will sound obsolete to a lot of you and I'm glad it does, but this association is not as ridiculous in practical terms as you would think/hope it was); 2) a man that wants equality despite not having his own issues addressed and seen as being as important as women's; And also the false understanding that a feminist woman is either a radical, bra burning, man hating individual (and all the other stereotypes), or a woman that thinks of her rights as being superior to men's. And the reality is... it's simply NOT any of that. It's men and women alike wanting full gender equality for EVERYBODY. That's the premise behind the movement and that's what we should be focusing our efforts on. Just like "mankind" is not a representation of men only despite having "man" in its name. But once again, people don't have a problem with that type of word because society has always been formatted to accept seeing the world from a male perspective, so anything that is male based has pretty much become second nature to us and we don't doubt it or question it like we do with female words. We accept that a male word can refer to both men and women blindly, but we struggle to accept that a female word can apply to both genders just as naturally. |
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