- Itachi
- Aug 28 2014, 09:42 PM
Personally I'm of the opinion he's never been reliable as a sensor, but he can sense to some extent (similar to Babidi/Dabura, except he sucks compared to them). He doesn't necessarily have to be as good as the Z fighters as I haven't read the evidence for it. TBH I didn't even read your evidence calming we he was a dependable sensor just that I wanted to make headway so we don't get stuck.
He sucks even worse than Dabura and Babidi? How can that be, when it was his recollection of Gohan's power that began to clear his doubts as to whether or not Dabura could be taken out by the Super Saiyans? Moreover, you're using that argument to explain how he's shocked at Base Vegeta when he'd already seen SSJ2 Gohan, I take it (seems to be the only option since you've not accepted any of my points on the matter)? Again, that does not fit with how his recollection of Gohan's power was what began to clear his massive doubts regarding Saiyans vs Dabura.
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”In Kaioshin's mind: Gohan > Vegeta > Gohan?
- Itachi
- Aug 28 2014, 09:42 PM
I was disagreeing that it's flimsy viewpoint coming from the argument of recurring themes. If it happened consistently to characters before, it'll serve as evidence (not proof) that it should happen again.
No, no, you still misread. It's flimsy
for the people arguing that Pui Pui is inferior to Freeza because 10g is Saiyan saga tier stuff. They say "10g < Saiyan saga because Saiyan saga people have already gotten the hang of that," but that argument is flimsy because with that line of thinking, stronger = more accustomed to high gravity, which would mean Pui > Vegeta since 10g is supposed to be game over for Vegeta, but we know that that's false, so the dude who made the argument in order to prove "Pui < Freeza" only managed to prove that Pui got desperate, which is why I argue Pui < Freeza in a different manner, get it?
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Okay, here's my take on Kaioshin on the ship sequence, because I'm getting bored of this. This is gonna be BR-style. I am not to blame:
Kaioshin senses SSJ2 Gohan. He gives us a statement on his power. This can't be denied. Later on, when Goku and Vegeta are telling him that Dabura isn't as great as he thinks, he wonders how great Super Saiyan can really be...before he brings up Gohan, and says "oh yeah, well Gohan was actually pretty strong, now that I think about it..." so he more than likely sensed Gohan properly.
When he explains Babidi and Boo to the Saiyans, he states that he found out about Babidi only recently. When he reaches the ship, he's surprised that Dabura is at Babidi's side, when he's been enslaved for at least 300 years. He doesn't seem to know much. Anyway, they descend into the ship and Pui Pui appears. Kaioshin says "be careful, he is supposed to be strong." Or, "don't underestimate him." Or, "be cautious, we don't know what we're up against." All are valid interpretations (and reworded versions of each other) of this statement of his:
“You mustn’t underestimate your opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes them his allies!”He doesn't sense Pui Pui. a) It is stated that Spopovitch can't be sensed
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”, b) Yakon is felt out by air currents, not chi
Goku: “You’ve underestimated us too much. Even in pitch darkness, I can easily tell your movements. Through things like the subtle flow of the air…”, c) Dabura is gauged by movement, not chi
Vegeta: I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something.”, d) No statement is
ever made regarding Pui's actual power, e) Vegeta is the exception, because he wasn't fully possessed, and because we have statements showing that his chi alone could be sensed out of all the Majins. Vegeta easily bests Pui Pui. Kaioshin is shocked. There are several ways to take this. One, Gohan's power wasn't on his mind (maybe rewording it this way will help you all?), since, when Goku and co. are discussing Dabura's power before Yakon appears, Kaioshin wonders if the Saiyans are really all that great...before saying something along the lines of "Come to think of it, it was hard to restrict Gohan's movements" (actual line is somewhere above). In other words, this information is what validates the doubtful (in his eyes) notion that the Super Saiyans are all that great, great enough to beat the demonic Dabura. Had this been on his mind the whole time, then how could it be the information that starts to clear his doubts? He'd either continue to doubt them, or he'd have never doubted them at all. I'm sorry if you don't see this, somehow.
The other route you could take is that Kaioshin is surprised at how Vegeta did what he did in base.
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”In other words, because Vegeta stepped up to fight in base, Kaioshin assumed that Vegeta would fight only in base, because the possibility of Vegeta, or any of the Saiyans, doing a quick transformation à la Son Goku never crossed his mind until later. And yes, he knew that Vegeta could actually become a Super Saiyan to begin with, because he asks "Is this Super Saiyan thing really this great?" (paraphrasing) after Goku and Vegeta write Dabura off as nothing, so that's not the issue here. As for Gohan transforming at the tournament? That must not be what Goku did, then, unless Kaioshin "forgot"
again. Moreover, even if you'd like to disregard the "pinch" argument, this only really applies to why Kaioshin was
worried...regarding his shock after the fact, this can be taken to be shock at Vegeta's base, because he knows Vegeta has SSJ, and yet Vegeta actually ended up fighting in base, which doesn't even have to do with the "pinch" thing.
So at least I address half the argument with this. Again, I'm sorry if you somehow don't see this either.
Dabura then shows up, and here's the kicker: Kaioshin isn't nearly as opposed to Gohan fighting Dabura alone, despite the fact that Dabura is supposed to be far stronger than Yakon and Pui Pui. The closest you get is him going all "It's Dabura! :O" when Dabura pops out of the door, which is more than likely just surprise that Dabura is here so early, given that even Goku is shown to be surprised. Why isn't Kaioshin as worried? a) Gohan's power is now on his mind, b) He knows that Gohan won't just fight in base form, c) Goku and Vegeta have told him that Dabura most likely isn't much to worry about. The fact that he's no longer
as worried about Dabura is important, because it shows us that before, he was simply being overly cautious, and for good reason too – now that many misunderstandings have been cleared up, he's still concerned, but not nearly as much for piddling henchmen like Yakon and Pui Pui. His "forgetfulness" has been cleared up. His idea that the Saiyans can't do what Goku did against Yakon has been dismissed – and Gohan starts off in SSJ to fight Dabura, anyway, last I checked. There's still his general cautiousness over the fact that Babidi gathers strong people, but this has likely been receding over time – first, he recalls Gohan's power, which is what first leads him to consider that SSJ might be pretty great, and secondly, he witnesses Goku's power against Yakon (as well as the fact that Goku could do what he did in a pinch), all of which would give Goku and Vegeta some credibility for the way they write Dabura off (though I'm not arguing that he's not concerned at all, since I don't believe he knows Dabura's power. This is because he's still somewhat concerned about Babidi and his men in general even after recalling Gohan's power at the Budokai, but then later on, when Kaioshin and Gohan confront Babidi and Dabura, which occurred after he'd finally seen Dabura fight, he's not nearly as concerned with having Gohan fight Dabura as he was before.).
Do you see how the pieces come together like this? If you'd like to argue "no that's all wrong and too weird, not buying it" still, then here's a suggestion for what you can work with:
Vegeta is superior to a power that begins to ease Kaioshin's mind about Dabura, somewhat...the problem is that Kaioshin had just seen Vegeta fight, and is still worried about Dabura. Kaioshin could be a bad sensor, then, but then we again go back to how Gohan's power was what made him think that Super Saiyan could be a game-changer, and if Base Vegeta is superior to whatever the hell Kaioshin sensed before, why isn't his power what starts to reassure Kaioshin about Dabura? I suppose that the longer a chi reading has been implanted into his mind, the more accurate it gets, so he realized that SSJ2 Gohan was the real deal after all, Base Vegeta be damned? Anyone wanna go this route instead? But then he doesn't correct himself on Vegeta (ohoho)...I said I'd give you a suggestion, but the basis for it, which happens to be yours, is starting to crack...
4:43 PM Jul 13