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| Frieza vs Pui Pui | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 27 2014, 01:43 AM (4,716 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Aug 28 2014, 09:13 PM Post #91 |
 
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Kaioshin might've thought Gohan had another level of Super Saiyan to unveil. |
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| superperfectnerd | Aug 28 2014, 09:13 PM Post #92 |
 
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Pui Pui was simply desperate and he assumed Vegeta had never fought in gravity above 1G. He was reaching and hoping Vegeta's inexperience would give him the edge. The idea of a millennia old God with all that acquired wisdom forgetting that Gohan was really strong is stupid. The obvious truth is that Toriyama wanted to create dramatic moments at different points in the saga and in't bother to make it completely coherent. Now we are trying to make sense of it. There has to be a way. I don't want Pui Pui stronger than Freeza but for him to intimidate the Kai he must have been. If he was misinformed or being overly cautious and it turned out Pui Pui was nothing, then Vegeta wouldn't have had to impress kaioshin in order to defeat Pui Pui and the Kai would have just gone "oh he wasn't that strong after all...oh well" rather than "these saiyans are mother flippin' freaks!". |
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| Mihawk | Aug 28 2014, 09:14 PM Post #93 |
 
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Ermmm.. No? You've just been following it to reach your conclusions.
He has some idea at least, claiming that he's the strongest of the lower world. At the lowest scale there is evidence he knows his power (while none existing the other way [being surprised at his power/etc]). Although I guess the fact that he's being somewhat specific on Yakon and Dabura, he really in fact didn't know Peepee's power.
Well you see it's been done before - many, many times. No one drew conclusions based on when Freeza thought he could beat Goku at 100%, no one drew conclusions when Cell thought he'd beat Gohan. You don't need to give it the label "lost his mind" either... Just acting in desperation as was Freeza will close any of the gaping holes needed. Also the chances of some fodder like Peepee getting a whole buildup before he acts in desperation is on the unlikely side. Side villains naturally will get everything rounded down. Edited by Mihawk, Aug 28 2014, 09:17 PM.
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| + Kyouks | Aug 28 2014, 09:23 PM Post #94 |
 
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Lemme rephrase: why would you not follow it? It's not like it's up for interpretation.... Never mind the reliable part, literally (read: figuratively) every character is unreliable at certain points during the mang0, but you agree that he can sense, right? I can question everything the Pui > Freeza side has to say all over again depending on your answer. Was he specific about Yakon? Don't remember that, just knew who he was. “You mustn’t underestimate your opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes them his allies!” Same thing. lol did you misread? I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was saying that that's the conclusion you get from the usual "10g means Pui = garbage" argument, which is why I would never use said argument to say Pui < Freeza. |
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| Mihawk | Aug 28 2014, 09:42 PM Post #95 |
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Personally I'm of the opinion he's never been reliable as a sensor, but he can sense to some extent (similar to Babidi/Dabura, except he sucks compared to them). He doesn't necessarily have to be as good as the Z fighters as I haven't read the evidence for it. TBH I didn't even read your evidence calming we he was a dependable sensor just that I wanted to make headway so we don't get stuck.
Idk but I've seen folks that believe Freezer > Base Saiyans claim Kaio knew his power.
I was disagreeing that it's flimsy viewpoint coming from the argument of recurring themes. If it happened consistently to characters before, it'll serve as evidence (not proof) that it should happen again. |
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| Hurry My Curry | Aug 28 2014, 10:23 PM Post #96 |
Master Troll
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I think the best way to look at it is that kaioshin can't sense the majin's, he goes off reputation for Pui-Pui. The reason he is shocked about base vegeta is becaude he expected the saiyans to surpass him in ssjin, but base Vegeta is even greater than that. Base Vegeta > SSjins (expected) > Kaioshin. Stick Pui Pui wherever you see fit. |
| Miles for mod | |
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| Mihawk | Aug 28 2014, 10:29 PM Post #97 |
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Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4 Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?” Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ” Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…” He understands the SSJ power boost concept much later tho. Qyo said he interpreted that is specifically in a pinch, but that doesn't really add up with Gahan going SSJ2 just for fun in the tournament. |
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Aug 28 2014, 10:30 PM Post #98 |
 
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Did Gohan go SSj2 in a pinch at the tournament? |
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| Hurry My Curry | Aug 28 2014, 10:35 PM Post #99 |
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Master Troll
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Idk it sounds to me like Kaioshin is talking exactly about SSj2. Which is fishy because gohan has done it. Maybe he is surprised that they can all do it. He just saw goku do it, Vegeta doesn't seem surprised so Kaioshin can assume Vegeta can do it also. He knew about ssjin from the budokai. But perhaps not SSj2. |
| Miles for mod | |
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| + Kyouks | Aug 28 2014, 10:37 PM Post #100 |
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He sucks even worse than Dabura and Babidi? How can that be, when it was his recollection of Gohan's power that began to clear his doubts as to whether or not Dabura could be taken out by the Super Saiyans? Moreover, you're using that argument to explain how he's shocked at Base Vegeta when he'd already seen SSJ2 Gohan, I take it (seems to be the only option since you've not accepted any of my points on the matter)? Again, that does not fit with how his recollection of Gohan's power was what began to clear his massive doubts regarding Saiyans vs Dabura. Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5 Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…” In Kaioshin's mind: Gohan > Vegeta > Gohan? No, no, you still misread. It's flimsy for the people arguing that Pui Pui is inferior to Freeza because 10g is Saiyan saga tier stuff. They say "10g < Saiyan saga because Saiyan saga people have already gotten the hang of that," but that argument is flimsy because with that line of thinking, stronger = more accustomed to high gravity, which would mean Pui > Vegeta since 10g is supposed to be game over for Vegeta, but we know that that's false, so the dude who made the argument in order to prove "Pui < Freeza" only managed to prove that Pui got desperate, which is why I argue Pui < Freeza in a different manner, get it? --- Okay, here's my take on Kaioshin on the ship sequence, because I'm getting bored of this. This is gonna be BR-style. I am not to blame: Kaioshin senses SSJ2 Gohan. He gives us a statement on his power. This can't be denied. Later on, when Goku and Vegeta are telling him that Dabura isn't as great as he thinks, he wonders how great Super Saiyan can really be...before he brings up Gohan, and says "oh yeah, well Gohan was actually pretty strong, now that I think about it..." so he more than likely sensed Gohan properly. When he explains Babidi and Boo to the Saiyans, he states that he found out about Babidi only recently. When he reaches the ship, he's surprised that Dabura is at Babidi's side, when he's been enslaved for at least 300 years. He doesn't seem to know much. Anyway, they descend into the ship and Pui Pui appears. Kaioshin says "be careful, he is supposed to be strong." Or, "don't underestimate him." Or, "be cautious, we don't know what we're up against." All are valid interpretations (and reworded versions of each other) of this statement of his: “You mustn’t underestimate your opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes them his allies!” He doesn't sense Pui Pui. a) It is stated that Spopovitch can't be sensed[1], b) Yakon is felt out by air currents, not chi[2], c) Dabura is gauged by movement, not chi[3], d) No statement is ever made regarding Pui's actual power, e) Vegeta is the exception, because he wasn't fully possessed, and because we have statements showing that his chi alone could be sensed out of all the Majins. Vegeta easily bests Pui Pui. Kaioshin is shocked. There are several ways to take this. One, Gohan's power wasn't on his mind (maybe rewording it this way will help you all?), since, when Goku and co. are discussing Dabura's power before Yakon appears, Kaioshin wonders if the Saiyans are really all that great...before saying something along the lines of "Come to think of it, it was hard to restrict Gohan's movements" (actual line is somewhere above). In other words, this information is what validates the doubtful (in his eyes) notion that the Super Saiyans are all that great, great enough to beat the demonic Dabura. Had this been on his mind the whole time, then how could it be the information that starts to clear his doubts? He'd either continue to doubt them, or he'd have never doubted them at all. I'm sorry if you don't see this, somehow. The other route you could take is that Kaioshin is surprised at how Vegeta did what he did in base. Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…” In other words, because Vegeta stepped up to fight in base, Kaioshin assumed that Vegeta would fight only in base, because the possibility of Vegeta, or any of the Saiyans, doing a quick transformation à la Son Goku never crossed his mind until later. And yes, he knew that Vegeta could actually become a Super Saiyan to begin with, because he asks "Is this Super Saiyan thing really this great?" (paraphrasing) after Goku and Vegeta write Dabura off as nothing, so that's not the issue here. As for Gohan transforming at the tournament? That must not be what Goku did, then, unless Kaioshin "forgot" again. Moreover, even if you'd like to disregard the "pinch" argument, this only really applies to why Kaioshin was worried...regarding his shock after the fact, this can be taken to be shock at Vegeta's base, because he knows Vegeta has SSJ, and yet Vegeta actually ended up fighting in base, which doesn't even have to do with the "pinch" thing. Dabura then shows up, and here's the kicker: Kaioshin isn't nearly as opposed to Gohan fighting Dabura alone, despite the fact that Dabura is supposed to be far stronger than Yakon and Pui Pui. The closest you get is him going all "It's Dabura! :O" when Dabura pops out of the door, which is more than likely just surprise that Dabura is here so early, given that even Goku is shown to be surprised. Why isn't Kaioshin as worried? a) Gohan's power is now on his mind, b) He knows that Gohan won't just fight in base form, c) Goku and Vegeta have told him that Dabura most likely isn't much to worry about. The fact that he's no longer as worried about Dabura is important, because it shows us that before, he was simply being overly cautious, and for good reason too – now that many misunderstandings have been cleared up, he's still concerned, but not nearly as much for piddling henchmen like Yakon and Pui Pui. His "forgetfulness" has been cleared up. His idea that the Saiyans can't do what Goku did against Yakon has been dismissed – and Gohan starts off in SSJ to fight Dabura, anyway, last I checked. There's still his general cautiousness over the fact that Babidi gathers strong people, but this has likely been receding over time – first, he recalls Gohan's power, which is what first leads him to consider that SSJ might be pretty great, and secondly, he witnesses Goku's power against Yakon (as well as the fact that Goku could do what he did in a pinch), all of which would give Goku and Vegeta some credibility for the way they write Dabura off (though I'm not arguing that he's not concerned at all, since I don't believe he knows Dabura's power[4]). Do you see how the pieces come together like this? If you'd like to argue "no that's all wrong and too weird, not buying it" still, then here's a suggestion for what you can work with: Vegeta is superior to a power that begins to ease Kaioshin's mind about Dabura, somewhat...the problem is that Kaioshin had just seen Vegeta fight, and is still worried about Dabura. Kaioshin could be a bad sensor, then, but then we again go back to how Gohan's power was what made him think that Super Saiyan could be a game-changer, and if Base Vegeta is superior to whatever the hell Kaioshin sensed before, why isn't his power what starts to reassure Kaioshin about Dabura? I suppose that the longer a chi reading has been implanted into his mind, the more accurate it gets, so he realized that SSJ2 Gohan was the real deal after all, Base Vegeta be damned? Anyone wanna go this route instead? But then he doesn't correct himself on Vegeta (ohoho)...I said I'd give you a suggestion, but the basis for it, which happens to be yours, is starting to crack... [1] Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…” [2] Goku: “You’ve underestimated us too much. Even in pitch darkness, I can easily tell your movements. Through things like the subtle flow of the air…” [3] Vegeta: I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something.” [4] This is because he's still somewhat concerned about Babidi and his men in general even after recalling Gohan's power at the Budokai, but then later on, when Kaioshin and Gohan confront Babidi and Dabura, which occurred after he'd finally seen Dabura fight, he's not nearly as concerned with having Gohan fight Dabura as he was before. Edited by Kyouks, Aug 28 2014, 10:49 PM.
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| Mihawk | Aug 28 2014, 10:40 PM Post #101 |
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Just so you know I'm gonna read that but not reply, l0l. Thanks for typing it out. Definitely reading it. |
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| + Kyouks | Aug 28 2014, 10:45 PM Post #102 |
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Also, here's one more thing for Gohan transforming for fun at the tournament...it takes him a little time and effort to do so. Not much, but it's there. In the middle of a fight, I doubt you could transform that way (unless the villain just stands there.........sh0n3n p0w@), and this is all Kaioshin has to go by prior to ship stuff. Btw, there's some slightly abrasive speaking in there, don't take it personally, bro. I just like doing that sometimes to get my point across; ask 22JQ, he'll tell you. Edit: Added a few things to it. Edited by Kyouks, Aug 28 2014, 10:56 PM.
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| SSJ | Aug 28 2014, 11:31 PM Post #103 |
 
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Qyo likes to play rough. |
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| Mike XL | Aug 29 2014, 12:07 AM Post #104 |
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Raditz could have ended Yamu in a sec. King Piccolo could have too. On the topic, chalk it up to Buu saga inconsistency or whatever, but he was more shocked at suppressed base Vegeta than he was SSJ Gohan at the torny. The Buu saga is a mess. |
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| + Saiyan Paladin | Aug 29 2014, 05:32 AM Post #105 |
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"I'm here to fix the cable." "You can guess where it goes from here." ".....He fixes the cable?" |
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