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[Summer 2014 Budokai] Discussion of Dragon Ball Power Chains; Super Saiyan vs Ketchup Revenge
Topic Started: Jul 31 2014, 08:44 AM (1,263 Views)
Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Round 2, Match 2: Super Saiyan 2 vs Ketchup Revenge

Topic: Discussion of Dragon Ball Power Chains

Rules:

1) Only the thread's participants are allowed to post.
2) Participants will be eliminated if they don't respond within 48 hours.
3) The debate must be concluded within 1 week.
4) Everybody is expected to be civil during the tournament.

For the two matches in progress, an extra 2 days will be given for response time.

Good luck and have fun!
Edited by Emmeth, Jul 31 2014, 06:49 PM.
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Super Saiyan
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Emmeth the rules are slightly altered here, right?
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Emmeth
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SuperSaiyan2
Jul 31 2014, 06:50 PM
Emmeth the rules are slightly altered here, right?
Yes, in both matches. I added another tidbit of information.
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Super Saiyan
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Oh damn, does this need to be up by tomorrow? I'll do my best.

I'll see if I can get it done in time... I'm about 1500 words in as we speak and I'm only around halfway finished, possibly less. And I've been working on this rather vigorously, I haven't been slacking off.
Edited by Super Saiyan, Aug 3 2014, 04:26 AM.
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I’m going to be putting forth my Red Ribbon Army Arc power chain. Essentially I plan to go through each fight in order, and place each fighter accordingly. Also I will use only one “greater than” sign to indicate a gap, I’m not interested in the sizes of the gaps.

Let’s start out at the very beginning of the arc. Goku goes to search for the Dragon Balls and encounters Colonel Silver. After Silver shoots Goku out of the sky with his missile, Silver attempts to take Goku’s radar.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Silver demonstrates super speed in the act of stealing Goku’s radar. Goku even goes as far as to say that he needs to keep his guard up against a guy like Silver. After Goku takes his stuff back, the battle began. Silver threw a punch at Goku but ended up getting kicked in the stomach by Goku. Silver then throws a hard kick at Goku, and Goku is forced to dodge. I would think that if Goku had to dodge Silver, he’s at a level where he is still a semi-threat to Goku. Goku then whipped him with his tail and knocked him out rather casually.

Goku (21st Budokai) > Silver

Next up Goku assaults Muscle Tower. He meets up with Sergeant Metallic who has been undefeated in the tower. The battle starts with Metallic throwing a punch at Goku, but Goku dodges it easily. Goku lands on Metallic’s shoulder and punches him in the head, knocking him over. Metallic gets up and catches Goku by surprise and puts him into a tight grip. Goku gets away and throws a really hard kick at Metallic sending him flying into the wall.

Spoiler: click to toggle


I think it’s important to analyze Goku’s face here. Goku looks absolutely serious when he kicks Metallic, and he literally put all he had into the kick. When Metallic got up you can see the shock on Goku’s face. He expected that kick to put him down for good. Metallic then goes on the offensive and throws a hard punch at Goku sending him into the opposite wall. Metallic is about to finish off Goku, but Goku manages a head to head collision with Metallic sending him back to the ground. Yet again Metallic is unaffected by Goku’s hardest attacks. After Metallic shoots a rocket at Goku, look at Goku’s response.

Spoiler: click to toggle


“It’s the first time I’ve fought someone like him…!”

Goku seems to be implying that Metallic is at the very least a lot stronger than Jackie Chun at the 21st. Goku then fires a Kamehameha and rips off Metallic’s head. To be honest I don’t know if this is a strength feat. Metallic is made of metal, so he is less durable and easier to break. The fact that he was virtually unaffected by the Kamehameha tells me that he was a lot stronger than Goku (post 21st) who likely got a zenkai himself.

Spoiler: click to toggle


After the headless Metallic beats on Goku, Goku says that he will now show him his true power. If we skip to the 22nd Budokai, Goku said he had two levels of power. He had his match level power, and his combat level power. I think Goku was about to show Metallic his combat level of power. Now I can’t be sure as to where combat level Goku would be in relation to Metallic, but I’m going to assume close.

Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Silver

Moving up the Muscle Tower gauntlet, Goku then faced off against Sergeant Murasaki. The entire beginning of the battle was purely a gag. Murasaki and Goku merely were playing hide and seek, and no battle was fought. Then when the battle began, the only feat for Murasaki occurred.

Spoiler: click to toggle


As can be seen, Murasaki was able to somewhat keep up with Goku’s level of speed. That tells me that Murasaki is still a formidable foe, but Goku was just too strong to show that. The rest of the battle is completely one-sided for Goku, which is backed up by the Daizenshuu.

Daizenshuu 2
 
In reality Master Sergeant Murasaki was a set of quintuplets. With four of them being easily taken out by Goku, the last one is taken out by a Janken!


Murasaki attempted to fight Goku head on with his sword, but Goku was able to easily dispatch him with his Nyoi-Bo. Literally nothing that Murasaki did could damage Goku, not even the quintuple attack. I believe it’s pretty clear that Murasaki is weaker than Goku, but he should still be stronger than Silver based on his speed feat.

Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Murasaki > Silver

Next up was the battle against Buyon. It’s tough to place Buyon in terms of strength, but I have a decent idea where he may fit in.

Chapter: 64, P5.3, P6.2
White: “Fuhahahaha! Hey, brat! You’ll be done for once you go up against Buyon here! I hope you get eaten! [ ] Hihihihihi…you’re too naďve, brat. No matter how much of a master you are, or what weapon you use, you’ll never be a match for Buyon!”

Chapter: Chapter 64, P8.4
Context: Goku is shocked at his helplessness against Buyon.
Goku: “Man... My punch did nothing to him...”

Chapter: Chapter 64, P9.4
Context: Still amazed.
Goku: “I can’t believe it... His body’s all flabby... My hits have no effect on him!”



As you can see, every strength related quote about Buyon tells us nothing about his power. An emphasis is put on his amazing durability. General White even claims that if Goku is stronger, he won’t be able to do anything. This proved to be just the case. Goku’s full effort kicks, punches and even Kamehameha’s were useless against the monster. Though there is one feat that can help us see that Goku is superior.

Spoiler: click to toggle


As you can see, Buyon managed to eat Goku. Goku was able to force his way out using brute strength, indicating that he is indeed more powerful than Buyon.

Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Buyon > Murasaki > Silver

Next up is the glorious fight that is Goku vs General White. When Goku arrived on White’s floor, White thought that he could beat an exhausted Goku. That obviously wasn’t that case.

Spoiler: click to toggle


You can see how little it took to get rolling around crying in pain. I think this alone is enough to place him at the bottom of the food chain here.

Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White

And last but not least from Muscle Tower is the placement of Android 8.

Chapter: Chapter 66, P14.2
Context: Goku, still stunned, is amazed at No.8’s strength.
Goku: “You’re terrific when you get mad, Hatchan. Your punch was a lot more incredible than mine. You’re really good when you put your mind to it...”
No.8: “Ha ha... But I hate to fight.”

Goku literally admits inferiority to Android 8, and Murasaki also thinks he would be able to obliterate Goku.

Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White

Once Goku cleared out the tower, he Krillin and Bulma went to search for the Dragon Balls, and met up with the Robot Pirateguard. The beginning of the battle showed Goku punch it to no effect, and the Krillin getting hit pretty hard.

Spoiler: click to toggle


As we can see here, Krillin got hit pretty badly and showed damage.

Chapter: Chapter 75, P.5-4
Context: While both figh the robot, the boys admit it’s a good adversary.
Kuririn: “It's kinda tough...”
Goku: “Yep, not bad!!”


Considering they couldn’t sense it’s ki, all they had to go on was how hard it could hit. Krillin commented on its toughness, whereas Goku just thought he was a decent opponent. What I find interesting is that Goku told Krillin to go on without him, implying that Krillin wouldn’t be able to take on the Robot Pirate. I think this is backed up by the fact that it smacked Krillin across the room. After Krillin left, Goku kicked the Robot into the water. Then after a small struggle underwater, Goku escaped from the pirate, and took it out by diving at it from the top of a building. It’s made pretty clear that Goku is superior to the Robot by a good amount, but it’s still a very formidable opponent. I think the following chain can be formed.

Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Pirate Robot >Krillin >~ Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White

Moving on, we find General Blue and Krillin facing off against one another. I think this speaks for itself.

Spoiler: click to toggle


This is the sequence of events in their fight. Krillin is all like “oh I had better get really serious now”. And then Blue literally just throws him to the ground. The facial expressions are also very important. While Blue is beating the tar out of Krillin, it looks as though he’s thoroughly enjoying himself. He wasn’t even taking their fight seriously. Then there is even this quote from Krillin after he got beat up.

Chapter: Chapter 77, P.1.2-3
Context: After Kuririn and Blue fight for awhile.
Kuririn: “Urgh... He’s super strong... What amazing strength!”
Blue: “Ho ho ho! Big mouth but nothing in the arms, huh?!”


Krillin does land a hard kick right after this, but it does nothing but make Blue bleed. Krillin couldn’t inflict anything more than cosmetic damage. Goku then showed up and utterly humiliated Blue.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Chapter: Chapter 77, P.13.2
Context: Goku easily fights against Blue, not trying too hard. Blue admits he never faced such a threat.
Blue: “Gnnn... Oooh!!”
Goku: “Heh heh! No big dealio!”


Blue even admitted that he never faced anyone as good as Goku, showing that he didn’t think much of Krillin. I think Blue is in the range of the Pirate Robot in terms of power. I think the Robot would be able to manhandle Krillin similar to Blue.

Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > General Blue ~ Pirate Robot > Krillin >~ Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White

Next on the list is Arale. Arale literally kicked Blue to the other side of the planet.

Spoiler: click to toggle


To add more evidence on her power, Goku literally claims inferiority.

Chapter: Chapter 83, P.11.1-5
Context: Arale says she sent General Blue very far...
Goku: “You knocked him real far?!”
Senbei: “That's right, we can’t even see him.”
Goku: “That...That's incredible!!”
Arale: “Heh heh heh...The two Gatchans are strong too!”
Goku: “But they’re so tiny...”
Arale: “I also have a friend named Obotchaman and he’s really strong too!”
Goku: “Wow... There are so many people stronger than me in the world... I gotta train even more!”


Arale > Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > General Blue ~ Pirate Robot > Krillin >~ Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White

Moving further into the arc, we come across Bora. Bora is a tough character to place in terms of power. He has two major feats that we can analyze. One, he was able to tank bullets. Two, he threw Goku a good amount up Karin’s tower, demonstrating incredible super strength. This is pure speculation, but I’m thinking he should be more powerful than General Blue. Blue thought breaking a phone booth was some sort of huge feat and I don’t see him being able to throw Goku up Karin’s tower like Bora did.

Arale > Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Bora > General Blue ~ Pirate Robot > Krillin >~ Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White

Tao Pai Pai is the next guy on the list. After murdering Bora, Goku charged at Tao but was dodged. Goku got up and gave a full power Kamehameha to Tao, which only burnt his clothes.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Chapter: Chapter 86, P.13.3-4
Context: After getting hit with Goku's Kamehameha, Tao Pai Pai seems unfazed
Tao Pai Pai: “You brat... You ruined my clothes...”
Goku: “It didn’t affect him at all!!”


As stated by Goku himself, his Kamehameha did nothing but cosmetic damage. Tao is at a level where he is able to completely tank an amped an attack from combat level Goku. I’m not sure exactly how much stronger he should be, but I’m going to tentatively place him above Arale.

Tao Pai Pai > Arale > Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Bora > General Blue ~ Pirate Robot > Krillin >~ Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White

After Goku wakes up from his unconscious state, he heads to the top of Karin tower. He attempts to take the Holy Water from Karin but fails miserably.

Spoiler: click to toggle


As you can see, Goku was giving it all he had but couldn’t even touch Karin. By the end of the training when Goku was able to obtain the water, I think he was still a good deal weaker than Karin. Just because Goku caught him does not mean he was stronger. That would be like saying Kaioken Goku would be as strong as Vegeta because he was able to hit him. Not to mention, Karin implies that Goku only surpassed him in the Piccolo Daimao arc.

Goku returned to the lower world to fight Tao Pai Pai. Their second fight was surprisingly close. Goku was able to command the early portion of the fight. Tao was unable to hit him.

Chapter: Chapter 90, P.14.4
Context: Tao Pai Pai says he will fight more seriously, implying he wasn’t even at full power last time. Is it a bluff or is it true?
Tao Pai Pai: “This could be fun! I’ll go at it a little more seriously for once. It'll be good for my health!”


Tao then told Goku that he would fight seriously, and the battle definitely showed that. Goku and Tao exchanged blows looking nearly even. Then Tao used the Dodonpa on Goku, which Goku was able to tank. This shows us that Goku was superior, but I don’t think it was by all that much.

Karin > Goku (Post Karin Training) > Tao Pai Pai > Arale > Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Bora > General Blue ~ Pirate Robot > Krillin >~ Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White

Now last but not least, we have the assault on the Red Ribbon HQ. Let’s get Commander Red out of the way first. I think he is similar to General White in the way that he possesses no strength. He has no feats or statements to back himself up, so we will just put him equal to White.

Karin > Goku (Post Karin Training) > Tao Pai Pai > Arale > Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Bora > General Blue ~ Pirate Robot > Krillin >~ Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White ~ Commander Red
Assistant Black is a little tough to place.

Chapter: Chapter 95, P.11.2
Context: Assistant Black states that he’s on a different level than the others, probably referring to the other high members of the Red Ribbon. But Goku’s so strong now that it's impossible to determine if that’s the truth...
Black: “Heh heh heh... You may be pretty self-confident, but this won’t go [as easily] as it did with the others before me.”


You can interpret this in two different ways. One, he is stronger than everyone in the Red Ribbon Army 9not including Tao Pai Pai). Two, he is only above everyone else from the Red Ribbon HQ. I’m fine with either of those opinions, but I’ll choose option 1 here. Considering Goku’s elbow didn’t even knock out Black, I think he should at least be stronger than General Blue. Blue got humiliated by a “weak” Goku, whereas Black got humiliated by a much stronger Goku.

I’m not going to rate Black’s battle jacket because it is very strange. It deals a couple of good hits to Goku, but it isn’t really able to do much to Goku.

Here is the final chain!! :

Karin > Goku (Post Karin Training) > Tao Pai Pai > Arale > Android 8 > Goku (post 21st combat level) ~ Sergeant Metallic > Goku (21st Budokai) > Bora >~ Assistant Back > General Blue ~ Pirate Robot > Krillin >~ Buyon > Murasaki > Silver > General White ~ Commander Red
Edited by Super Saiyan, Aug 6 2014, 05:57 AM.
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Mihawk
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Ketchup Revenge has dropped out due to serious real world complications. SSJ2 wins by default. Congrats!

Now I don't have to read that monster ahaha.

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I'm just going to put in the the Z section then lol. Forum wide debate!
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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oh snap, i was wondering what happened to this debate, and why itachi hasnt told me to judge it yet but
congratz ssj2 and i would get some serious real life complications too if i had to counter that s***
lol i only joke and hope ketchup is fine

so its, urameshi vs ssj2 how exciting
Edited by Havoc_Wreaker, Aug 9 2014, 07:31 PM.
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