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Goku versus Superman - There can never be a winner.
Topic Started: Jul 25 2014, 12:12 PM (1,822 Views)
superperfectnerd
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Now, before I begin trying to explain what I understand about both franchises, I will admit, whilst I adore both characters, there are undoubtedly more holes in my Superman knowledge. This doesn't really matter however as my purpose here is to explain why you can't compare feats and achievements from the DC verse and the DBZ verse.

First of all when it comes to comparing everything that is considered 'canon', Superman straight away has the advantage, he has been fighting the good fight for 75 years, he is the original super hero and is a world wide icon. He also has the privilege of having multiple incarnations and a plethora of different writers with a plethora of different interpretations of his power. Anything considered 'canon' for Goku however all stems from one mind and progresses in a linear fashion from start to finish. Superman fans have the advantage of drawing from all of Superman's greatest feats in 75 years, whilst anything considered a weak showing can be put down to 'bad writing'.

Another advantage in Superman's corner comes in the structure of comics themselves, they are different from the manga which Goku heralds from. Comics always conveniently explain exactly what is happening in a lot of scenes, "Superman is travelling this fast...he's lifting this much...he just punched Darkseid in the face with this exact amount of force..." No version of Dragonball does this to such an extent, so numbers and abilities are left to speculation by comparing Goku's earlier feats and estimating what he should be capable of later on, which is sketchy at best.

Another common problem comes when people argue that Superman has sneezed away solar systems and moved planets and punched reality in the face and it's suggested that Goku has never done these things, so therefore he can't do them. Superman has had 75 years of story and feats, Goku with his one linear story line has never had reason to destroy a planet, why would he?

What also seems to be completely misunderstood is the destructive power of ki, now people are always trying to work out numbers, (Superman has survived such and such megatons of blast force whereas Goku has only survived this much) that kind of thinking can not be applied to ki, it's like magic, a force made of will and a person's character, it can't be quantified. In Dragonball it's not about the size of the explosion, but the intensity of the blast. For example, we know that Master Roshi can destroy the Earth's moon with a power level of 139, however, if he had used that attack on Raditz, the saiyan would be left completely unscathed standing in a moon sized crater. Piccolo's Makankōsappō (special beam canon) only destroyed the side of a mountain, but it cut through Raditz like butter, because it had a higher level of power. Frieza's attack didn't destroy Namek straight away because he held back his blast in order to not get caught up in the explosion of his ki, NOT the explosion of the planet which he proved he could handle even when exhausted, cut in half and partially melted by Goku's blast. He also needed to be quick to avoid Goku stopping the attack. That whole 'can Kid Buu destroy a galaxy or can Cell destroy a solar system' debate, doesn't matter, because it's not about the size of the explosion. Superman is certainly smaller than both. Ki is not heat or concussive force it is just...well...ki!

Now for speed, yes we know Superman is fast, really fast, but we can't definitively know if Goku can keep up or not. Before the whole "Superman traveled from here to here this fast and Goku only travelled from here to here this fast" is mentioned, I strongly believe that flight speed does not play a major role in fight speed. We can even apply it to real life. Usain Bolt is the fastest sprinter in the world, but is he as fast at fighting as Bruce Lee? Or Muhammad Ali? I doubt it. Plus, people use the anime to judge how fast Goku is fighting, the anime is supposed to entertain, they have to show the fight to us and the characters have to converse, that doesn't mean those fighters are moving as slowly, talking as slowly or charging their attacks for as long as they seem to be in the show, but it would be boring if Goku said "kamehameha", had a difficult fight with Cell, realised he couldn't win and then gave up all in the blink of an eye! In Dragonball krillin and Master Roshi fought, played Rock Paper scissors and engaged in germ warfare, all too fast for Yamcha a SUPER human to keep up with. That's with a power level of less than 100, when goku fought Frieza he was at 150000000 and everything after that is speculation. When Goku fought Cell, only Gohan could keep up. The point is, the later fights don't LOOK any faster than early Dragonball, but we know that they of course are much faster, but we need to see them to enjoy the show. I know Superman has awesome reaction and combat speed too, but my point is they can't be easily compared. We do know however that Master Roshi with a power level of 139 could catch bullets from a machine gun at point blank range.

As for durability, I know that Superman is an absolute tank, he can unquestionably survive countless megatons of force. But I still have no idea how he would handle ki attacks because, as I said before, ki just doesn't work that way, whether it makes physical sense or not. A frequent argument against Goku's durability is he didn't survive the explosion that destroyed King Kai's planet. Well, it was the ki energy from Cell's exolosion that destroyed him, not the planet blowing up. As for whether or not Goku's punches would hurt Superman, well, power equals mass times speed, so it depends on combat speed again. But when Goku attacked Recoome, it seemed to show that he augments all his striking blows with ki energy anyway, so again, completely unquantifiable.

Superman's lifting strength is unparalleled, there's no doubt about that, I personally believe that if Superman got hold of Goku that would be all she wrote. However, Goku deserves more credit for his strength, that forty tons thing is ridiculous, he lifted a car when he had a power level of 10 and took a bullet to the face. General Tao in Dragonball threw a pillar miles across the planet and killed another super human with his tongue. He lifted and dragged what in reality would be much more than 40 tons multiple times in Dragonball as a child. The Vegeta gravity chamber feat shows that Vegeta (and therefore Goku) can practice combat at super fast speeds under intense gravity and before anyone says well that isn't that impressive it's only 500 times body weight, I don't think gravity works quite that way, remember the Sun only has about 27 times the Earth's gravity. Plus it wouldn't just be their bones and muscles that would suffer, their internal organs would have to work harder too. Human's couldn't survive in two times gravity for long due to the strain on our hearts.

Let me reiterate, I love both franchises and characters, I do not back either one in the fight, because I have no idea who would win and there is no way to figure it out.
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Sjk8
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I completely agree with you in the Dragon Ball part (except regarding Ki: it's not magic, but life energy, everyone has it, but the difference between normal people and a DB fighter is that the latter can control it, expand and suppress it, increase it and use it to extend his physical capabilities).
The general Superman (red and blue clothes, no particular version) is simply from a much different type of work compared to DB: his high-end feats are impressive, but his low-end feats are ridicolous; while in DB a guy with a higher PL would never lose to a weaker guy, in DC things just don't go like that.
Also, Superman flies fast yes, but his combat speed is questionable (before someone argues that he tagged the Flash, which is true, I have to say that the Falsh has often been tagged by normal humans); not to talk about black holes and Superman surviving them, because in DC even civilians survived them.
Finally, Superman (despite actually knowing many types of martial arts) is not such a good fighter.
I can tell you that a general Superman has suffered against opponents who are lol-worthy compared to Goku and he would get his a*** kicked; at the same time, as you said, there are many different versions of Superman, and trust me, no form of Goku would be able to touch the strongest of them.

Anyway, considering the classic form of Superman, you have to remember this: Superman is a hero, while Goku isn't, not because Goku isn't a good guy, but because he is a fighter; while Superman flies around the world saving people from planes crush or sinking boats or explosions, Goku trains all day and doesn't actually care about the rest.
Big differences, but they are both great characters with their differences.
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I didn't even read through your whole post because your first paragraph entirely explains this inability to compare the two.
Superman maybe able to sneeze a solar system out of existence, but (as far as my knowledge goes), he's never seen to be able to tear holes in dimensions like someone on Super Boo's level.
Power in Dragon Ball is also measured by how well you can control it.

The Dragon Universe and DC Universe are too dissimilar to accurately compare both characters. The physics are different and realities are completely different as well.

Both universes have character feats that completely defy the laws of natural physics.
The two realities simply aren't coherent enough to even make an accurate comparison.
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superperfectnerd
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Sjk8
Jul 25 2014, 01:24 PM
I completely agree with you in the Dragon Ball part (except regarding Ki: it's not magic, but life energy, everyone has it, but the difference between normal people and a DB fighter is that the latter can control it, expand and suppress it, increase it and use it to extend his physical capabilities).
The general Superman (red and blue clothes, no particular version) is simply from a much different type of work compared to DB: his high-end feats are impressive, but his low-end feats are ridicolous; while in DB a guy with a higher PL would never lose to a weaker guy, in DC things just don't go like that.
Also, Superman flies fast yes, but his combat speed is questionable (before someone argues that he tagged the Flash, which is true, I have to say that the Falsh has often been tagged by normal humans); not to talk about black holes and Superman surviving them, because in DC even civilians survived them.
Finally, Superman (despite actually knowing many types of martial arts) is not such a good fighter.
I can tell you that a general Superman has suffered against opponents who are lol-worthy compared to Goku and he would get his a*** kicked; at the same time, as you said, there are many different versions of Superman, and trust me, no form of Goku would be able to touch the strongest of them.

Anyway, considering the classic form of Superman, you have to remember this: Superman is a hero, while Goku isn't, not because Goku isn't a good guy, but because he is a fighter; while Superman flies around the world saving people from planes crush or sinking boats or explosions, Goku trains all day and doesn't actually care about the rest.
Big differences, but they are both great characters with their differences.
I know it isn't actually magic, I just mean it can't be physically explained or quantified, a bit like magic.
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bardock1990
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Damn, too much text in this thread. Would appriciate some cliffs from OP's post though.
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Dude I'm sorry I can't read your post it's way too long. Someone want to summarize it something?

Edit: alright. I just read most of it.


But you guys do realize they did fight already right? They fought twice now. They actually had a bet. The loser had to wear his underwear outside his pants. Then they had a rematch and superman got to stop wearing his underwear like that

Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 25 2014, 03:17 PM.
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Return Of Imjustsaiyanbro
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I feel like this thread will get moved to a different section.

But yes there will never be a winner. Why? Because simply a canon fight would never happen. I just don't see DC and whoever owns the DB universe ever doing it. Even if they did I doubt there would be a definitive winner. Both of them will fight each other (probably not at full strong) and both would get some good hits. Then some tough bad guys would arrive which would lead to a Superman/Goku tag team. The heroes triumph and are now total BFF's.

Based on what I know from both characters, I think Goku would win in a very tough battle but it doesn't matter what I think.


Edit: lmao you guys gotta give it up to the newbie though for putting all that effort though
Edited by Return Of Imjustsaiyanbro, Jul 25 2014, 02:52 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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Main points -

1. Superman has 75 years of canon and multiple writers/interpretations of his power vs DBZ one writer canon.

2. Comics try to explain what is happening - "Superman is travelling this fast...he's lifting this much...he just punched Darkseid in the face with this exact amount of force..." etc. Mangas don't do this.

3. People say Superman has destroyed planets/sneezed away solar systems but 75 years of story has allowed this. Goku has never had reason to destroy a planet.

4. Destructive power of ki doesn't work in terms of megatons of force. Master Roshi can destroy the moon, but that blast would have left Raditz standing in a moon sized crater unharmed. Special beam cannon only destroyed a mountain but cut through Raditz. Doesn't matter if Cell can destroy a solar system or not, cuz size of the blast doesn't matter.

5. Travel speed doesn't equal fight speed plus in the anime, the characters are moving faster than they appear, obviously, otherwise their speed appears the same in Dragonball as in Z but we need to see the fights to enjoy them.

6. ki augmented striking blows.

7. The 40 ton lifting feat is stupid. Goku lifted/dragged more weight than that in Dragonball. Gravity training isn't as simple as everything being heavy. Internal organs have to work harder and the sun is only 27x the Earth's gravity.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 25 2014, 03:14 PM.
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superperfectnerd
Jul 25 2014, 03:13 PM
Main points -

1. Superman has 75 years of canon and multiple writers/interpretations of his power vs DBZ one writer canon.

2. Comics try to explain what is happening - "Superman is travelling this fast...he's lifting this much...he just punched Darkseid in the face with this exact amount of force..." etc. Mangas don't do this.

3. People say Superman has destroyed planets/sneezed away solar systems but 75 years of story has allowed this. Goku has never had reason to destroy a planet.

4. Destructive power of ki doesn't work in terms of megatons of force. Master Roshi can destroy the moon, but that blast would have left Raditz standing in a moon sized crater unharmed. Special beam cannon only destroyed a mountain but cut through Raditz. Doesn't matter if Cell can destroy a solar system or not, cuz size of the blast doesn't matter.

5. Travel speed doesn't equal fight speed plus in the anime, the characters are moving faster than they appear, obviously, otherwise their speed appears the same in Dragonball as in Z but we need to see the fights to enjoy them.

6. ki augmented striking blows.

7. The 40 ton lifting feat is stupid. Goku lifted/dragged more weight than that in Dragonball. Gravity training isn't as simple as everything being heavy. Internal organs have to work harder and the sun is only 27x the Earth's gravity.
Superman's canon has indeed been written, re-written, and then re-re-written.

And Toriyama's explanations in the series are simply in context to the situation at hand, not a linear increase over time. In other words, this is why speed and strength feats are so inconsistent.
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Speed doesn't matter in goku vs superman. However much faster superman may be(let's say he is), he makes up in teleportation. Goku can clearly use instant transmission many times during a fight against people who are faster than him.

One punch from EOZ goku will knock out superman. If not, he will take a lot of damage

Without infinite mass punch, superman can't scratch goku with his punches

Goku's heat resistance sucks compared to supermans. His vision will beat him. This is only way I can see superman beating goku; with heat vision

Superman lifting heavy things has no effect on how hard he hits. At all. Period. And for record, superman's never lifted a planet without help unless we are talking about silver age superman or other crazy haxed versions
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Ssj3vegito96
Jul 25 2014, 04:43 PM
Speed doesn't matter in goku vs superman. However much faster superman may be(let's say he is), he makes up in teleportation. Goku can clearly use instant transmission many times during a fight against people who are faster than him.

One punch from EOZ goku will knock out superman. If not, he will take a lot of damage

Without infinite mass punch, superman can't scratch goku with his punches

Goku's heat resistance sucks compared to supermans. His vision will beat him. This is only way I can see superman beating goku; with heat vision

Superman lifting heavy things has no effect on how hard he hits. At all. Period. And for record, superman's never lifted a planet without help unless we are talking about silver age superman or other crazy haxed versions
I'm not arguing against the Goku thing, but Goku can only teleport to a location by focusing on someone's ki. He can't simply teleport around as he chooses; and he needs to be focused.

If you consider Battle of Gods canon (and I don't really), than EOZ Goku can definitely do a lot of damage to Supes. However, everyone's opinion on his power growth over the ten years widely varies. If he was even Super Boo level by that time, he could probably do some serious damage to Supes.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jul 25 2014, 04:58 PM.
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Jul 25 2014, 04:58 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Jul 25 2014, 04:43 PM
Speed doesn't matter in goku vs superman. However much faster superman may be(let's say he is), he makes up in teleportation. Goku can clearly use instant transmission many times during a fight against people who are faster than him.

One punch from EOZ goku will knock out superman. If not, he will take a lot of damage

Without infinite mass punch, superman can't scratch goku with his punches

Goku's heat resistance sucks compared to supermans. His vision will beat him. This is only way I can see superman beating goku; with heat vision

Superman lifting heavy things has no effect on how hard he hits. At all. Period. And for record, superman's never lifted a planet without help unless we are talking about silver age superman or other crazy haxed versions
I'm not arguing against the Goku thing, but Goku can only teleport to a location by focusing on someone's ki. He can't simply teleport around as he chooses; and he needs to be focused.

If you consider Battle of Gods canon (and I don't really), than EOZ Goku can definitely do a lot of damage to Supes. However, everyone's opinion on his power growth over the ten years widely varies. If he was even Super Boo level by that time, he could probably do some serious damage to Supes.
EOZ base goku at the least is on par with fat buu. The 2015 movie should make BOG canon. So he can use instant transmission in a fight like he did against beerus
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Ssj3vegito96
Jul 25 2014, 04:43 PM
Speed doesn't matter in goku vs superman. However much faster superman may be(let's say he is), he makes up in teleportation. Goku can clearly use instant transmission many times during a fight against people who are faster than him.

One punch from EOZ goku will knock out superman. If not, he will take a lot of damage

Without infinite mass punch, superman can't scratch goku with his punches

Goku's heat resistance sucks compared to supermans. His vision will beat him. This is only way I can see superman beating goku; with heat vision

Superman lifting heavy things has no effect on how hard he hits. At all. Period. And for record, superman's never lifted a planet without help unless we are talking about silver age superman or other crazy haxed versions
If he can use instant transmission that effectively, why did he stalemate with Vegeta? Speed has arguably been shown time and time again as DBZ's most important advantage. If Goku's instant transmission negates his opponents speed then Vegeta would have been screwed. Superman's lifting strength should transfer to grappling. It's not just about punching and kicking and if he is stronger then a grab would be effective. See now battle of Gods throws everything off. it seems to imply Goku and Vegeta making incredible progress, possibly surpassing Gohan in 5 years, which, to me, seems ludicrous. Goku and vegeta's ssj2 power is implied to not be leaps and bounds ahead of Gohan against Cell, it's only when Goku goes ssj2 that Vegeta states "impressive, you're stronger than Gohan was against Cell". This means that Goku's regular ssj has not surpassed Gohan of seven years ago. Gohan 7 years ago was a little bit more than twice as strong as Goku when in ssj2. So in 7 years Goku and Vegeta have become a bit more than twice as strong. I have Super Buu and Gotenks literally thousands of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta, based on base Gotenks' confidence that he could beat Buu, a Buu he knows easily defeated ssj2 Gohan and Vegeta. Base Goku 10 years later should not be able to catch Fat Buu when in 7 years in other world his power in base only a little more than doubled.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 25 2014, 05:57 PM.
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superperfectnerd
Jul 25 2014, 05:53 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Jul 25 2014, 04:43 PM
Speed doesn't matter in goku vs superman. However much faster superman may be(let's say he is), he makes up in teleportation. Goku can clearly use instant transmission many times during a fight against people who are faster than him.

One punch from EOZ goku will knock out superman. If not, he will take a lot of damage

Without infinite mass punch, superman can't scratch goku with his punches

Goku's heat resistance sucks compared to supermans. His vision will beat him. This is only way I can see superman beating goku; with heat vision

Superman lifting heavy things has no effect on how hard he hits. At all. Period. And for record, superman's never lifted a planet without help unless we are talking about silver age superman or other crazy haxed versions
If he can use instant transmission that effectively, why did he stalemate with Vegeta? Speed has arguably been shown time and time again as DBZ's most important advantage. If Goku's instant transmission negates his opponents speed then Vegeta would have been screwed. Superman's lifting strength should transfer to grappling. It's not just about punching and kicking and if he is stronger then a grab would be effective. See now battle of Gods throws everything off. it seems to imply Goku and Vegeta making incredible progress, possibly surpassing Gohan in 5 years, which, to me, seems ludicrous. Goku and vegeta's ssj2 power is implied to not be leaps and bounds ahead of Gohan against Cell, it's only when Goku goes ssj2 that Vegeta states "impressive, you're stronger than Gohan was against Cell". This means that Goku's regular ssj has not surpassed Gohan of seven years ago. Gohan 7 years ago was a little bit more than twice as strong as Goku when in ssj2. So in 7 years Goku and Vegeta have become a bit more than twice as strong. I have Super Buu and Gotenks literally thousands of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta, based on base Gotenks' confidence that he could beat Buu, a Buu he knows easily defeated ssj2 Gohan and Vegeta. Base Goku 10 years later should not be able to catch Fat Buu when in 7 years in other world his power in base only a little more than doubled.
Not sure why he didn't use it against vegeta. He possibly practiced with it after buu saga so he can use it the way he did against beerus.

Supermans strength transfers to grappling. Grappling is something goku rarely ever does though. But ok, let's bring physical strengh into it. While goku can't lift that much, he push something that has enough to force to crush a planet. When has superman done that without help?

Gains aren't consistent. At the tournament with Uub, he said that someone other than him or buu would win. After fighting Uub, he said he was exactly what he expected. He even stated he was going to go all out on him. Uub is the reincarnation of kid buu. When he raged, he became as strong as kid buu, making base goku at the end of z equal to buu saga ssj3 goku.

There's a big enough gap between EOZ ssj1 goku and super perfect cell for him to easily be able to one shot him with one punch. And super perfect cell could survive a solar system destroying blast

Whether instant transmission can be used efficiently in a fight like he did against beerus or not, superman still won't scratch goku unless he uses heat vision. And we don't know enough to say goku is faster than superman or vice/versa
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Return Of Imjustsaiyanbro
Jul 25 2014, 02:51 PM
I feel like this thread will get moved to a different section.
Damn straight!

Moved to Other Versus. Have fun.

Remember, guys... Forum Rules still apply in here. This is not the wild wild west.
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