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21st Budokai
Topic Started: Jul 21 2014, 12:58 AM (1,243 Views)
p123
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Alright let's start off with Goku being able to knock a big muscle man out of bounds with a mere tap of his finger. Goku and Krillen are clearly outrageously powerful now.

Krillen goes up against his form schoolmates who used to bully him. Krillen ends up knocking him through the wall. I think it's pretty safe to say that Krillen can probably go up against that Triceratops who so badly scared him back during his first days of training. Goku and Krillen seem to be quite even as of now, although I'd give Goku an edge. I'd say Krillen is probably 90% of Goku. I think that would be fair...

And let's not forget just how massive the gap between Krillen Pre Training and Krillen Post Training is. It's a massive, massive gap. Krillen knocks a fighter who was superior to himself hundreds of feet away through a wall. Krillen has gotten massively, massively stronger. The gap between Roshi and Pre Training Goku and Krillen is quite ridiculous.

Yamcha says he's been training for the Budokai for a long time. Yamcha concedes that training with the invincible old master has put Goku on a whole different level now. Yet again suggesting the gap is tremendous.

Ok on to the good stuff...

Jackie vs Yamcha...

Jackie is initially at leisure while fighting Yamcha. The way Jackie is so nonchalant and moves with such ease is reminiscent of Goku vs the Ginyu Force. I see no reason why not to use this gap initially...



Yamcha then unleashes the Wolf Fang Fist, which clearly catches Roshi's attention. Roshi is leisurely no more and is first to retreat by jumping in the air. Roshi is still able to breeze out of Yamcha's sight and end up behind him. This reminds me of a 75% gap. Roshi has seen enough and now uses a gust of wind to expel Yamcha from the ring. An incredible feat for sure...


So initially, Yamcha is around 66% of Roshi's power and his Wolf Fang Fist jumps him up to 75% imo.... Yamcha has been training for quite a while, so it's save to say he's well ahead of Initial Son Goku... Goku goes on to say he didn't think anyone can beat Yamcha that easily. More of a throwaway line but gotta note it.

So essentially we have Roshi, at a Base Level as of now at 100.

Roshi 100
Wolf Fang Fist 75
Yamcha 66

I think that's a pretty fair estimate, you could widen those gaps a bit make it a bit bigger to give the wind chop a bit more realism...

Roshi 100
Wolf Fang Fist 70
Yamcha 60


Either option can work I would guess...We will see if we need to change that later...


I don't really care to rate Ran Fan vs Namu, I think Namu was holding back a lot because it's a girl and damage feats are inconsistent. When Namu wants the fight over he one shots her, I don't really care to discuss this fight.

Giran vs Goku

Giran sucker punches Goku and Goku ends up hitting Giran with a major blow. Goku used a lot of effort to block Giran's punch and counters him hard. Giran nearly upchucks. I'd place Giran at 50-60% of Goku here for the most part. That upchuck looks very similar to Cell and Gohan once again.

Goku gets caught in the gum, can't break out, gets his tail back and now he is able to break out. Goku looks like he can move in hyperdrive now. I'd say Goku W/o Tail is probably anywhere from 75-85% of Goku W/ Tail. It's quite an improvement. Need to narrow that down more, but later...

Goku says that he's lots better now and he breaks the wall down with ease. Completely crumbles majority of a wall with a mere kick. Not really much of a feat at this stage of the game though honestly. Goku was chucking cars around initially. Feats are a bit inconsistent. Anyway moving on, this feat causes Giran to quit, I guess Giran, Krillen and Goku W/ Tail probably couldn't do this feat. Apparently this wall is strong as hell.

Alright onto Krillen vs Jackie Chun...

Krillen comes right out of the gate and seems to be showing a speed a good deal greater than Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist...It even has Jackie sweating and really having to put in a lot of effort to avoid. I'd say this is looking pretty damn close...

I'd still keep Roshi at his Base 100 Level and Krillen I don't know, perhaps 80-90 seems about right. Krillen is actually making Jackie work, so he's definitely getting up there...

Jackie then uses some super speed punch that Krillen can't follow that is nearly identical to the punch Blue used on Krillen. Just too fast... I'd think Roshi has gone beyond his base level here...



Starting to Heat Up Roshi 120
Base Roshi 100
Krillen 90
Wolf Fang Fist 75
Yamcha 66


So far I'm going with this...


Krillen really concentrates and is now able to keep up with Heating Up Roshi... Krillen is 115 now...

After trading for a little while, Krillen realizes he's out of his league. I don't really understand what that means. Is he talking about their current powers or does he realize Jackie has more in the tank? I'm not really quite sure where to go with that.

This is the issue I need help with for sure.

After Krillen's panty trick fails, Krillen is super desperate, he decides to go all out and is not fighting smart anymore. One after image and Krillen gets one shotted easily...

Did Jackie use more power than before? I don't really know how to make sense of this...


Hmm now that I look back. Jackie after his initial super speed punch says he won't take it easy on Krillen anymore.

I'd say


Jackie ( Not Taking it Easy ) > Jackie ( Increased Speed ) > Jackie ( Base ) >>= Krillen > Wolf Fang First > Yamcha


Krillen is able to concentrate and more or less match Jackie's ( Not Taking it Easy ) level.


When Jackie attacks next, he's clearly putting some real effort into his attack. Krillen and Jackie both move at hyper speed levels, surpassing Jackie's super speed level previously. I think...

Jackie is very impressed with Krillen after this. Jackie said it's been a long time since anyone''s kept up with his speed. As of now, we should take this to mean at FP I would guess?

They go at it again with Krillen barely loosing the hyper speed battle. It's definitely a close battle of power and speed but I'd give Jackie the edge here...



Jackie ( Not Taking it Easy ) 150
Krillen ( FP ) 145
Jackie ( Super Speed ) 120
Jackie ( Base Leisure Level ) 100
Krillen ( Initial ) 90
Wolf Fang Fist 75
Yamcha 66


I'm actually really happy with that as of now. Kyouka! Where are you need halp!

You could even make Krillen 150 if you want because it seemed Jackie used superior tactics to land the blow that won the hyper speed match...

Krillen goes on to say that Jackie is way out of his league and he needs a new strategy. I still don't know what to make of this...

Jackie doesn't want to wear himself out before the finale and decides he wants to end this right here and now. So I guess Krillen was able to sense Jackie had a lot more in the tank?

Krillen is scared now and doesn't know what to do. Clearly there is a shift in power from their prior hyper speed battle...

Now Roshi is back to an almost leisure state, I believe this is Roshi's true ability.

The way he acts is reminiscent of how he acted before against Yamcha initially. Easily handles Krillen, who was coming at his desperately, which I'm sure is a factor. But I think we got to see Roshi's true ability here. I'd place Krillen's max at about 66% of Roshi, I think that's pretty fair.

This would give Roshi a decided edge on General Blue, who I feel shows a 75% gap on Krillen later in the series. Seems fair enough to me...



Going back to Jackie viewing Goku vs Giran. Jackie is a bit startled by Goku's prowess as well as Krillen calling Giran's punch a little slap...


Goku vs Namu

Namu sees right through Goku's afterimage, and the battle commences, Goku seems to be looking like he's going pretty hard..Namu lands his special attack and Jackie thinks that Goku would be lucky to live. Credits Goku's durability to his lack of brain. Lol.


Namu jumps to do the attack again and now we get to see Goku with his hyper speed once again. He seems to be clearly moving faster than Namu and it reminds me of when he used his power to break the wall against Giran...

It's hard to say, but it appears that they are both close, but Goku has a bit of an edge on him... Goku hits Namu hard out of the ring, but Namu isn't gravely injured or anything.

I think they are essentially equals but when Goku taps into his hyper speed he's a bit superior...

Goku ( Hyper Speed ) 100
Namu ( Hyper Speed ) 95
Goku 90
Namu 90


I don't know what to make of that really.

Ok so after witnessing Goku defeat Namu, Jackie is clearly concerned about losing this...

Jackie says if he drops his guard for a second he might end up regretting it.

Jackie says he will have to fight with every ounce of concentration, the first time in a long time...


Jackie goes all out from the get go...

After Goku matches Jackie's KHH, Jackie realizes that not only can he not relent on Goku, he needs a strategy.

I think Jackie's real fear here is Goku's determination, Goku's durability, Goku's youth. I think the old geezer may have some potential stamina issues and I think Jackie came in expecting to win. The shock of him potentially losing and having to go all out in a war is surprising to him more than Goku being stronger or faster imo. I don't mind giving Goku a slight edge, but it's not absolutely necessary.

Goku's tactics end up matching or surpassing Jackie's own. They were stated to be a draw after the KHH and now Goku is stated to have the upper hand.

Yet again, nothing seems to be based necessarily on a speed or power issue. This is pure technique here...

Goku continues his assault on Jackie using superior tactics, he finally starts to wear Jackie down. while Jackie's attacks are somehow thwarted at every turn.

Paralyzing technique to Great Ape to Buff Kamehameha which is suggested to have been able to kill Goku.

After the KHH, Jackie has spent a lot of his energy. Goku is now hungry now and say's he's lost his strength as well.

They do the final attack and Jackie barely wins. Jackie states no one has ever pushed him this far...
Edited by p123, Jul 21 2014, 02:39 AM.
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I Yoeri

Roshi (@ Goku) = 55
Roshi (@ Krillin) = 35
Roshi (@ Yamcha) = 25

Krillin = 30
Yamcha = 15

Okay with these gaps?
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p123
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Not sure I'm making my way through it now. Are you ok with these gaps so far?

Roshi ( Not sure if FP ) 100
Wolf Fang Fist 75
Yamcha 66
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As long as Roshi is comfortably above Yamcha at any stage in the Budokai, I'm fine with it.
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p123
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Yea it's pretty clear that even with his Wolf Fang Fist, he's not close to a Initial Krillen, who's way weaker than his FP.
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You think Krillin's level of strength ever changes during the Roshi fight? IIRC, his conversation with Goku seems to imply that he was just being crybaby.
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Krillin held back prior to the Chun fight. He upped his ante when he had witnessed Chun pick apart Yamcha. He was at least full power at one point in that fight. Krillin was a strategic mess back then. Inexperienced.
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p123
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Yea Goku told him to look harder. As we can see based on the announcer, there was a difference in their speed for sure... Here's what I got right now...


Jackie Chun ( Leisure ) 100
~ Super Speed ( Vs Krillen ) 120
~ Hyper Speed ( 150 )
~ Full Power 225

Yamcha 66
~ Wolf Fang Fist 75

Krillen ( Initial ) 90
~ Full Power 150

Giran 100

Namu 220

Goku ( W/o Tail ) 175
~ ( W/ Tail ) 230
~ ( Muscle Tower ) 245
~ ( vs General Blue ) 265

Bora 180

Sergeant Metallic 210

General Blue 200
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Goku = Jackie is fine with me. None of them needs to be stronger.

I tend not to rank Sir Metalpants because he's full machine and just a stepping-stone to greater opponents.
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p123
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I don't blame you for not ranking Sergeant Metallic. He's very difficult to rank. I do think he should be somewhat comparable though. I have him at 85%, a small step above General Blue as of now.

And yea I'm cool with Jackie = Goku, I gave Goku a slight edge though. I actually really like those numbers up above. I think that's going to be my baseline set.
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Rogafufuken
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What about the Krillin vs Bacterian fight?
Edited by Rogafufuken, Jul 21 2014, 04:36 AM.
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That fight is uninteresting beyond Smelly's stench. Once Krillin realized he didn't have a nose, he whopped him.
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How powerful is the big guy compared to the other competitors though?
Edited by Rogafufuken, Jul 21 2014, 04:43 AM.
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Below Giran. Bacterian and Ranfan are both between 50 and 80.
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Rogafufuken
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Emmeth
Jul 21 2014, 04:44 AM
Below Giran. Bacterian and Ranfan are both between 50 and 80.
I always thought that they were only good fighters because of their gimmicks.

Though that makes sense.

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