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The Nameless Namek's placement at Cell Games
Topic Started: Jul 20 2014, 03:32 AM (16,114 Views)
Hurry My Curry
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If Piccolo was on par with the Cell Jrs, he would have been included in the statement. He is not, therefore the Cell Jrs are not giving their all. KP has outlined it, Cell Jrs have serious faces towards Vegeta and Trunks, smiling towards everyone else. Tien is standing up in one panel. The Cell Jr sequence simply does not mean anything for Piccolo.
Edited by Hurry My Curry, Jul 20 2014, 07:09 PM.
Miles for mod
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Victorious
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Kamiccolo standing like a boss.

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Edited by Victorious, Jul 20 2014, 07:13 PM.
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Popcorn

hmmmmm\

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=9021792&t=8492676

but what do i know im in the ''Negligible Tier/Filthy Peasants:'' rght :rofl:
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* Yu Narukami
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Victorious
Jul 20 2014, 07:05 PM
Naked Snake
Jul 20 2014, 06:49 PM
Victorious
Jul 20 2014, 06:45 PM
Naked Snake
Jul 20 2014, 06:33 PM
Victorious
Jul 20 2014, 06:30 PM
Naked Snake
Jul 20 2014, 06:22 PM
Victorious
Jul 20 2014, 06:11 PM
Quote:
 
Well done, you've come to the conclusion that Piccolo > Tired MSSJ Goku. Now, good luck proving he was above 50% Goku.


Well done for being non perceptive to the point as well. I personally don't have tired Goku over 50% Goku either. There should be a huge difference between he and Kamiccolo IMO.

The humans were instantly put down, eating dirt.

Tired MSSJ Goku was instantly put down, eating dirt.

Kamiccolo was not, he was standing holding is own there with Vegeta and Future Trunks.


So why was tired Goku put down? Because can CAN be put down.

You're the one saying that Kamiccolo CAN be put down but for some reason The Cell Juniors chose not to put him down.


An 80 most certainly CAN put a 35-40 down instantly...hell an 80 can put a 55 down instantly.

If Piccolo was that close to Trunks and Vegeta, Cell would've said something. So you're going to have to explain why Piccolo was left out. Oh, and also, we didn't see Piccolo land a single hit on the Cell Kid he was fighting, in fact, we didn't see anything at all. All that title page tells me is that Piccolo's quite durable. It shows that he's on an entirely other level compared to the humans, but still not strong enough to put up a notable fight like the Saiyans.
Well Cell didnt say ONLY Vegeta and Future Trunks are barely fighting evenly, he just said "Vegeta and Future Trunks are barely fighting evenly".

However I do take that to mean they are above him...that still doesnt debunk the idea that Kamiccolo couldnt go down, unlike the humans and tired Goku.

Anyway, it's a straw man to imply i'm saying Kamiccolo can fight evenly with them..he just wont go down. And I'm sorry but a 35-40 is instanlty gonna be put down by an 80. KKx2 instantly puts down Nappa, Goku @ 2x Vegeta instantly put down the Ginyus.

So, let me get this straight. Vegeta is around 70/75 and Trunks is around 65/70, yes? You said 50 /55 would be stomped as easily as 35/40. Where do you put Piccolo exactly? 60/65 would be too close to the Saiyans, but if he was any weaker than that, he wouldn't be able to stand up to a Cell Kid, right? Oh dear, what a conundrum. It could be solved by the Cell Kid toying with him at 50/55, but if you were to argue that, then one could just as easily argue that the Cell Kid was toying with him at 35/40. Oh my.
I said 55 would get one shotted by 80.

Well based on Cell's comment you need to have Vegeta and Future Trunks rival a Cell Junior. If a Cell Junior is 80 Future Trunks needs to be at least 72 in order to rival a Cell Junior. That's 90%

So

Cell Junior : 80
Vegeta : 75
Future Trunks : 72
Kamicolo : 64

Sounds about right to me. Kamiccolo being a 64 would mean he doesnt quite rival Future Trunks...yet isnt insta Knock down material for a Cell Junior. I think Kamiccolo can rival Vegeta and Trunks, just not a Cell Juniors based on Cell's comment though..so you could even bump Kamicolo up a little more.

55 is way too low there if Cell Junior is 80.

So, the Cell Kid is going all out against Piccolo. We don't see the fight or the Cell Kid he's fighting, and the lack of acknowledgement of Piccolo combined with the off-panel fight indicates that Piccolo's fight wasn't important enough to be shown. Him putting up a decent fight would be important.

@Vic - Yeah, it's an insult to Kyooks.
We don't see the fight between they and much of anyone. We see just as much of Kamiccolo as we do Vegeta or Future Trunks for instance. But we do have that title scan with Kamiccolo standing up while Goku and the humans can't even move.....as well as when Gohan goes SSJ2 Kamicolo is still standing and Goku and the humans are not.

We've already agreed that they put down what they can put down, right?

And that's why the humans and tired MSSJ Goku are eating dirt.

Your toying argument holds no consistency, that's the problem. If Kamiccolo can be put down he would have been put down.

The only way your argument works is if we apply a different set of rules for Kamiccolo than everyone else.

Future Trunk and Vegeta : Cell Juniors can't put them down and for that reason didn't put them down.
The humans : Cell Juniors can put them down and did put him down
Kamiccolo : Cell Juniors can put him down and didnt put him down? :o Why?

Now I just don't think that's very fair
Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P6.5
Vegeta: “Wh-what strength…! A bunch of little squirts like this [are doing this] to me…"

Vegeta was having a hard time just keeping fairly even with them. Also, Cell told the Cell Kids to get serious once he realised Gohan wasn't getting angry enough.
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Victorious
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^ Well if Cell tells them to get serious that only strengthens my argument since Kamicolo is standing like a boss when Gohan goes SSJ2. See above.
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* Yu Narukami
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Victorious
Jul 20 2014, 07:15 PM
^ Well if Cell tells them to get serious that only strengthens my argument since Kamicolo is standing like a boss when Gohan goes SSJ2. See above.
See, if they weren't toying around, why would he tell them to get serious?
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Hurry My Curry
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Hurry My Curry
Jul 20 2014, 07:08 PM
If Piccolo was on par with the Cell Jrs, he would have been included in the statement. He is not, therefore the Cell Jrs are not giving their all. KP has outlined it, Cell Jrs have serious faces towards Vegeta and Trunks, smiling towards everyone else. Tien is standing up in one panel. The Cell Jr sequence simply does not mean anything for Piccolo.
Let's just disregard this post.
Miles for mod
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+ Kyouks
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I was about to b1tch about the constant quoting of the damn CN tower in every post. Don't ever do that again.
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Victorious
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Naked Snake
Jul 20 2014, 07:15 PM
Victorious
Jul 20 2014, 07:15 PM
^ Well if Cell tells them to get serious that only strengthens my argument since Kamicolo is standing like a boss when Gohan goes SSJ2. See above.
See, if they weren't toying around, why would he tell them to get serious?
What's the quote? And did he say that after Gohan turned SSJ2 or something?
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Alex D. Boss
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Kyouks
Jul 20 2014, 07:08 PM
Kaboom's trying to point out that Pic can still be relevant, Alex >_>

Of course. The pic Vic pointed out is relevant. We're talking about that statement right here.
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Viz vol.17, pg.47
Piccolo: "...Looks like I'll have to my turn in the Room of Spirit and Time..."


That was after Cell has told Trunks the plan for the Cell Games. Sweating, gritting his teeth, clearly nervous at the thought of going up against such a monster in Cell, even with the BBQ Pit to help him achieve a power-up -- he didn't want to have to resort to that measure. He obviously thought Cell was a huge deal, and at that point he had no clue Cell was holding back power.

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Viz vol.17, pg.48
Vegeta: "We don't need you or Goku. I only need the room for one more day. Cell will regret giving me more time."


On the other hand, Vegeta was elated at the chance to go back in and fight Cell again and believed he could overcome their apparent immense power discrepancy in only one day, before learning of the "right way" to train from observing Goku and Gohan's post-RoSaT status.

SSjG2 Vegeta (hypothetical 2nd BBQ) > Cell >>> SSjG2 Vegeta (1st BBQ)

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Viz vol.17, pg.63-64
Bulma: "...Going somewhere, Vegeta? Training?
Vegeta: "What else? I'm going inside that room again. I don't care how many earthlings die -- but I can't sit still until I kill that thing."
Trunks: "I'm going too!"


More confidence from Vegeta, this time without the cocky smile and more of a down to business approach. Trunks jumped in then as well, maybe not with as much confidence but he was going to at least give it his all.

At this point, it didn't look like Piccolo has much hope in catching up to Cell, while Vegeta did. Piccolo had a lot further to go than Vegeta, but nonetheless.

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Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P13.5-6, P14.1-3
Context: After Goku checks out perfect Cell's power
Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.”

Viz vol.17, pg.78-79
Trunks: "Goku, wh-what did you think?!"
Goku: "...Frankly, I didn't think it would get that much stronger. No way of knowing how powerful it'll be when it finally gets down to business. I won't really know until I try...But as I am now I probably don't have a chance."
Vegeta: "..."
Trunks: "It's...that powerful? ...I was afraid of that..."


I included the Viz version since it seemed pertinent and wasn't in Herms' SC.

Trunks and company seemed to be going off the motto of Goku being the be-all-end-all savior, assuming he was the strongest around despite him being in a completely natural, rested state that shouldn't have been impressive at all. To Trunks, Goku was already a lot stronger, and then his fears were confirmed when Goku admitted inferiority to Cell, so he had to have already had some semblance of thinking Cell was holding back.

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Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P1.3-4, P2.1-4
Context: talking about the Room of Spirit and Time
Vegeta: “Well, well…So even the great Kakarot admits defeat against the rigors of that room…”
Goku: “Maybe…But pointlessly toughening up my body more than this is just torture, not training. But I won’t object if you guys enter that room again. It looks like you still have room left to toughen up more.”
Vegeta: “What was that…? I don’t like that…The way you said that made it sound like you’re saying that your true ability is greater than mine…”
Goku: “Yeah, a whole lot greater, I think.”


Up until that exchange, Vegeta still believed himself to be stronger than Goku. He wasn't buying into the hype.

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Viz vol.17, pg.85
Korin: "...You're certainly calm, considering that. I suspect you made some valuable discovery in the Room of Spirit and Time."
Goku: "Heh heh heh. Sort of."
Gohan (to self): "What...?! Is he serious...? ...But I was with him the whole time..."
Goku: "Master Karin, you've got a pretty good idea how strong Cell is by watching from here, right?"
Korin: "Mm-hmm. He hasn't shown his true powers, but I have a sense."
Goku: "Can you compare us? I'm gonna rev up right now."


That was after Goku commented on Cell being an incredible, perfect fighter. Coupled with his comments and Goku's tone of respect for Cell, Korin likely assumed Goku was weaker, which was later confirmed when Goku powered up to about half. Korin assumed Goku had some kind of plan to beat Cell despite being weaker -- a perfectly logical train of thought.

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Viz vol.17, pg.86
Vegeta (to self): "...Kakarrot has a strategy..."


Directly after the conversation about mastering Super Saiyan, Vegeta automatically assumed Goku had a strategy. He didn't think Goku was holding back on them in regards to his attitude about power.

Everybody had a hunch that Cell was holding back power, and that Goku "probably" couldn't beat him while he himself was stronger than everyone else (in their eyes). If we're still counting Grade 2, we'd come up with something like this IMO:

Cell (Z-Fighters' estimation) > Goku (Z-Fighters' estimation) >>> SSjG2 Vegeta >~ SSjG2 Trunks >>> Piccolo >>> Earthlings

In Goku's mind, it'd just be a lot more spaced out since he knew he was holding back about half of his full power, and Cell was "a bit" stronger than that.

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Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”


The big flush! At this point everyone has felt half of Goku's power, and they have no reason to assume it isn't his full power. But man, oh man, Piccolo's acting like a little b*** here.

Goku Pitt: "Piccolina! Did you lose weight?"
Piccolina: "Mhmm."
Goku Pitt: "I can tell! You're like a whole new person."
Piccolina: "Why don't you just spit it out already? I'm skinnier but I'm still not skinny enough to compete in the swimsuit competition..."
Goku Pitt: "...Yeah, you're right. Sorry."

Same thing essentially.

I can see how it could be interpreted both ways. On one side, you could have Piccolo simply not wanting to be patronized. On the other, you could see a glimmer of hope in Piccolo's mannerism, like "I did all this for you but it's still not good enough, is it? :(" Tough road to travel on when there are always two lanes. If you follow the former, then Piccolo doesn't need to be anywhere close to 50% MSSj Goku. If you follow the latter, then he does have to be at least on par with that power in order to be considering his chances against Cell, and then hearing the news that he's still garbage sends him (and Trunks) into a catatonic diarrhea binge; Goku and Cell, but mostly Cell, had just jumped up three notches on the ladder.

Oh, and by the way, Goku was already on his way to ask Piccolo to split back into two people before he even knew the guy had gone into the BBQ Pit, in order to revive the people Cell killed at the ring. He didn't think Piccolo would get strong enough to matter anyway, that a*****!

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Viz vol.17, pg.128
Gohan: "He won't tell me either. He just told me to look forward to it."
Trunks: "Look...forward..."
Krillin: "But if he wants you to look forward to it -- he must have a plan."
Piccolo: "...Or he's just being fatalistic."
Everyone: "..."


Only Trunks asking about why Goku is so confident is in the SC, but the rest of the conversation is just as important here. Krillin's line is pertinent here because he had the low-down on the whole thing as well, and he believed Goku was harboring a plan of action, not more power. Piccolo may or may have been sarcastic in his answer there, but if he wasn't, then he was thinking Goku was just a suicidal fool. Korin, Vegeta, and now Krillin had all considered Goku's ace in the hole to be a plan and not power.

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Chapter: 394 (DBZ 200), P10.2-4
Context: on the day of the Cell Games.
Goku: “It’s finally time. Huh? Where’s Vegeta?”
Piccolo: “He went on ahead…”
Goku: “Oh-ho. Rarin’ to go, huh? He must’ve gotten a lot better.”


The obligatory implication of Vegeta's superiority over what he assumed was Cell's full power, which was inherently above Goku's.

Eh, f*** it, this is too long already. You can finish the rest if you want. s***, 5% is already too taxing...
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p123
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Piccolo isn't on par with Vegeta but he's stronger than 50% Goku.
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When'd I say the pic wasn't relevant, child? You know how many times I've used it, fool? At least 231.

Edit : KP what the f***. Why so serious?
Edited by Kyouks, Jul 20 2014, 07:21 PM.
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Victorious
Jul 20 2014, 07:18 PM
Naked Snake
Jul 20 2014, 07:15 PM
Victorious
Jul 20 2014, 07:15 PM
^ Well if Cell tells them to get serious that only strengthens my argument since Kamicolo is standing like a boss when Gohan goes SSJ2. See above.
See, if they weren't toying around, why would he tell them to get serious?
What's the quote? And did he say that after Gohan turned SSJ2 or something?
I don't have the quote, don't see it in the Strength Checker.

It doesn't matter when it was said, the meaning doesn't change.
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p123
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Quite a destructive post KP, about time you've shown your true power.
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