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Genki-Dama Weighs More Than a Planet?
Topic Started: Jul 18 2014, 01:46 PM (3,609 Views)
+ Yusuke
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I don't want to be the 9001th person to put this out but I guess it has to be done again...

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Herms: It's worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku's weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.


Once again, Goku only struggled with the 40 tons because he was using Bukujutsu. I don't know why everyone assumes that 40 tons is his limit when it's made clear as day that he only struggled with the tons because of using Bukujutsu at the time.

Not really picking a side here, just getting this info out because a lot of people make this mistake.
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Rogafufuken
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Also, there's the fact that he was shadow boxing, not lifing.

So when the weight was increased, it was on his arms, making it harder to lift, since he couldn't grip it, and was on his forearms.

So without using Bukujutsu, and holding the weights in his hands, he could lift much more.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8971099&t=8466420

i think that explains my thoughts well, if anyone wants to bother
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Mihawk
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 18 2014, 10:37 PM
Itachi
Jul 18 2014, 10:07 PM
40 tons would be the limit of base Goku having the help of his entire body. SSJ is a different case. And yeah I'm aware it's seen as a joke by (lack of a better word) DBZ fanboys.

Quote:
 
40 tons is Goku's physical limit. Strength can by augmented by Ki.

Last I heard he had a ki aura when he was lifting 40 tons.
He had an aura when he went SSJ, but that kinda happens when you go SSJ. He's withholding Ki to train his physical strength.
He needs to exert Ki to float though, so I'm not really a fan of that theory.

I agree with bukujutsu making it harder. To what extent? 1.5x? 2x? Wouldn't venture more than 3x.

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King Kakarot
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weighs more than 40 tons look at the crater that thing left behind
Edited by King Kakarot, Jul 19 2014, 01:53 AM.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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hard to determine itachi
but it should be a fair amount, he has nothing to support the weight under
easily twice as hard at the least imo
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King Kakarot
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it can go straight through a planet's surface so i guess at the very least it would weigh more than a mountain :unsure:
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Itachi
Jul 19 2014, 01:49 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 18 2014, 10:37 PM
Itachi
Jul 18 2014, 10:07 PM
40 tons would be the limit of base Goku having the help of his entire body. SSJ is a different case. And yeah I'm aware it's seen as a joke by (lack of a better word) DBZ fanboys.

Quote:
 
40 tons is Goku's physical limit. Strength can by augmented by Ki.

Last I heard he had a ki aura when he was lifting 40 tons.
He had an aura when he went SSJ, but that kinda happens when you go SSJ. He's withholding Ki to train his physical strength.
He needs to exert Ki to float though, so I'm not really a fan of that theory.

I agree with bukujutsu making it harder. To what extent? 1.5x? 2x? Wouldn't venture more than 3x.
Yeah, he needs to Ki to float, but that doesn't mean he's using Ki to lift the weights.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

To answer the main OP question, it just seems to be a point that the Genki-Dama is so powerful and hard to control that if he's not careful he'll destroy the planet. We see later on the size of the blast compare to the Planet Namek. Goku's not going to give two cents if his Genki-Dama breaks through one end of Namek and out the other due to weight when you can fix cosmetic damage with the dragon balls.
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TheACE
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The Last GT Fighter

In short, weight of a spirit bomb isn't physics and isn't a thing. And secondly, the 40 ton feat is NOT how weighted training works (Even IN universe)

To expand on Brofist's comment, Ki is either an energy or a force. The most consistent translation and use in Dragon Ball seems to be energy (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/what/). And energy itself is a property, not so much an object, that can be manipulated but not created or destroyed (http://www.colorado.edu/physics/phys1110/phys1110_fa10/Feynman_energy.pdf) And while TECHNICALLY energy can have a weight, usually the spirit energy depicted in Dragon Ball has the properties of a Force. Force in physics is simply an action that is exerted upon an object according the the Newtonian laws of physics (The Principia Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy by Issac Newton) Therefore I put it to you that Goku's spirit bomb may have had enough "Force" to exert on an object (I.E. the planet) in order to destroy it by the first three laws of physicals, but it's highly unlikely it actually had a weight as it wasn't ever in a zero momentum environment without addition forces at work.
Goku is not a scientist, so him saying "weight" has no "weight" on the scientific facts or usage of the spirit bomb. If Bulma said it, then maybe, Gohan, I'll allow it. But whether it's a character statement or not, GOKU IS NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE BOMB OPERATES WITHING THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!

Now the 40 ton weight thing needs to be put to rest via sports medicine and simple natural physics. First off, the purpose of weighted training is, repeat after me, RESISTANCE TRAINING! As a martial artist personally and a subscriber to Livestrong Magazine (Thank you Mr. Chase, you made my October-Fist 2011 victory a reality), while it is a form of weight training by default, the purpose of resistance training is NOT TO LIFT THINGS! It strengthens the user's muscles by helping to increase bone denisty, improving joint function, increasing ligament strengths, and strengthening tendons for starts. It's much like doing a pull-downs, parkour or yoga, it develops specific muscles, especially those groups of "Endurance muscles." Your physical ability to lift something is NOT directly correlated with how much weight you can WEAR. If anything it may determine how LONG you can hold something as it focuses on the tendons and ligaments that keep the muscles together in the first place. (Andy Chase has a more concise article that focuses on the benefits of a weighted vest to your workout here: http://www.livestrong.com/article/23974-benefits-weight-vest/)
Secondarily, if anything, all the 40 ton feat proves is how much GRAVITY Goku can resist. As weighted clothing is made to simulate an increase in Gravity as well. In Goku's case it's approximately 586 times that of Earth's gravity. But it has very little to no actual meaning when it comes to his physical strength. Infact the using the Flying technique to lift the weights requires Ki and therefore DEFLATES the argument that he was only using his muscles to lift the 40 Tons.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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King Kakarot
Jul 19 2014, 02:01 AM
it can go straight through a planet's surface so i guess at the very least it would weigh more than a mountain :unsure:
Judging by how slow it was moving it would have to weigh MUCH more than a mountain.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 18 2014, 10:37 PM
Itachi
Jul 18 2014, 10:07 PM
40 tons would be the limit of base Goku having the help of his entire body. SSJ is a different case. And yeah I'm aware it's seen as a joke by (lack of a better word) DBZ fanboys.

Quote:
 
40 tons is Goku's physical limit. Strength can by augmented by Ki.

Last I heard he had a ki aura when he was lifting 40 tons.
He had an aura when he went SSJ, but that kinda happens when you go SSJ. He's withholding Ki to train his physical strength.
I wouldn't necessarily go that far. It seems that you get an aura if your ki surpasses your base-line in your current state, and you pump it up beyond your body's resting state.

The only way he'd be withholding ki would be if he was suppressed.
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TheACE
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No guys, there is no weight! Only force, energy in motion! Mass at the most!

And the aura isn't relevant, he's resisting gravity and building endurance, that is not his bench press or lifting limit!
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Mihawk
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It's kinda clear that genki dama weighing as much as a planet is just nitpicking fan made BS to throw out factual numbers. Kid Boo couldn't be using a few inches of the planet's floor as traction against something that would be even multiples over Namek's genki dama. It's obvious it's just the force, not weight of the blast which was pushing him.

I understand on other forums people have all sorts of fun doing scaling where Boo is a galaxy buster/universe/MFTL and when they come here they get pissed that a DBZ forum of all places is saying no, your fan scaling won't fly around here.

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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

Havoc_Wreaker
Jul 18 2014, 11:01 PM
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8971099&t=8466420

i think that explains my thoughts well, if anyone wants to bother


Exactly, I agree with what you wrote.
I may add one thing: we can know how giant Piccolo weighs, because we know how much he normally weighs (116 kg) and how many times he grew (10 times, if I'm not wrong); well, mass is density * volume, Piccolo grew 10 times bigger mantainig all the orginal proportions of his body (head to shoulders and so on), so he is 10 times larger in every spatial dimension (height, width and depth).
This means the volume of his body is 10 (height) * 10 (width) * 10 (depth) = 1000 times bigger than his normal state; on the contrary, the organic components of his body are the same (his flash, nerves..), so the proper density of his body doesn't change: so, with density as a constant, the mass of giant Piccolo is exactly 1000 times (from the volume) his normal mass and thus 116 tons.

I know AT didn't obviously think about this when writing the story, but really, knowing Piccolo's orginal weight and how many times he grew lead us easily to these conclusions.

TheACE
Jul 19 2014, 02:39 AM
In short, weight of a spirit bomb isn't physics and isn't a thing. And secondly, the 40 ton feat is NOT how weighted training works (Even IN universe)

To expand on Brofist's comment, Ki is either an energy or a force. The most consistent translation and use in Dragon Ball seems to be energy (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/what/). And energy itself is a property, not so much an object, that can be manipulated but not created or destroyed (http://www.colorado.edu/physics/phys1110/phys1110_fa10/Feynman_energy.pdf) And while TECHNICALLY energy can have a weight, usually the spirit energy depicted in Dragon Ball has the properties of a Force. Force in physics is simply an action that is exerted upon an object according the the Newtonian laws of physics (The Principia Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy by Issac Newton) Therefore I put it to you that Goku's spirit bomb may have had enough "Force" to exert on an object (I.E. the planet) in order to destroy it by the first three laws of physicals, but it's highly unlikely it actually had a weight as it wasn't ever in a zero momentum environment without addition forces at work.
Goku is not a scientist, so him saying "weight" has no "weight" on the scientific facts or usage of the spirit bomb. If Bulma said it, then maybe, Gohan, I'll allow it. But whether it's a character statement or not, GOKU IS NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE BOMB OPERATES WITHING THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!

Now the 40 ton weight thing needs to be put to rest via sports medicine and simple natural physics. First off, the purpose of weighted training is, repeat after me, RESISTANCE TRAINING! As a martial artist personally and a subscriber to Livestrong Magazine (Thank you Mr. Chase, you made my October-Fist 2011 victory a reality), while it is a form of weight training by default, the purpose of resistance training is NOT TO LIFT THINGS! It strengthens the user's muscles by helping to increase bone denisty, improving joint function, increasing ligament strengths, and strengthening tendons for starts. It's much like doing a pull-downs, parkour or yoga, it develops specific muscles, especially those groups of "Endurance muscles." Your physical ability to lift something is NOT directly correlated with how much weight you can WEAR. If anything it may determine how LONG you can hold something as it focuses on the tendons and ligaments that keep the muscles together in the first place. (Andy Chase has a more concise article that focuses on the benefits of a weighted vest to your workout here: http://www.livestrong.com/article/23974-benefits-weight-vest/)
Secondarily, if anything, all the 40 ton feat proves is how much GRAVITY Goku can resist. As weighted clothing is made to simulate an increase in Gravity as well. In Goku's case it's approximately 586 times that of Earth's gravity. But it has very little to no actual meaning when it comes to his physical strength. Infact the using the Flying technique to lift the weights requires Ki and therefore DEFLATES the argument that he was only using his muscles to lift the 40 Tons.


Amazing, finally someone else who understands this; I tried to explain that in this way so many times.
Anyway, I'll leave also my comment, in which I basically say the same things:

40 tons and Goku's training session: how things really work

It has also to be said with capital letters that those kind of trainings are made WITHOUT the use of Ki.
Hope finally people will understand this once and for all.

Thank you guys.

As for the topic, I'll repeat this one more time:

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P13.4-6
Goku: 'I-I didn't want to use this Genki-Dama. It will probably have too much force and squash the entire planet.'


That Genkidama has the force and the inertia to squash a planet, yet Freeza is holding it with his bare hands. End of story, caput.
What does this means? It means that Freeza, with that kind of physical force, could lift so many f***ing tons it's not even funny.

PS, For the guys who keep on bringing in Kid Boo:

Kid Boo stopped physically the force of a Genkidama even much more powerful, on the ground of a planet which can't be destroyed (explicitly told in the manga); also, he was holding it fine until Goku turned Ssj and pumped extra energy in to the inertia of the Spirit Bomb, outclassing him.
Now does that mean that Ssj Goku > Kid Boo? No, it means that Goku pumped extra energy in to the inertial energy of the Genkidama, given by its own enormous force: at that point, Kid Boo couldn't survive that kind of physical force anymore and thus the Spirit Bomb hit him, letting the Ki energy contained erase Boo's molecules from existence.

Also, if you guys want another example (albeit from another type of work), here is Ultraman lifting the Book of Limbo (which has infinite mass, literally): well, despite that it doesn't seem that the ground under his feet is crumblig.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Oh, but I can understand after all: bad, bad days for Naruto fanboys and DBZ downplayers.
Edited by Sjk8, Jul 19 2014, 11:23 AM.
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