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Plot vs. Good logic
Topic Started: Jul 17 2014, 11:43 PM (645 Views)
Professor Gohan
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Which is superior?
Which one came from the author more within his story?
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Professor Gohan
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Any thoughts on this?
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RaineStorm
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I'm pretty sure he was more concerned with where the plot was at that point and how to get it where he wanted. Logic was probably used later like a spell checker to make sure there were no major plot related issues to be worked out. Both are necessary, but Good Logic is superior because without it you cannot have good Plot.
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TheACE
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I suppose it depends on a few things. I'd say the plot wins out. Logically a lot of stuff we're forced to swallow as fans are no more rediculpusly than the stories that we read. For example, Transformers fans gripe about mass shifting (Sheinking and growing transformers like Soundwave) and ignore the fact that their heroes are made of living metal and turn into jets, cars, etc, come from an alien planet, live for millions of years and come out of a 4 million year coma speaking perfect modern American English. All that's OK but Soundwave can't magically change his size :/.

Again, there is very little to no logic in Dragon Ball at all, very little in Z and ever so slightly more in GT. If we really wanna play the logic game, why hasn't every fight up to Cell gone "Solar flare + Destructo Disk = /Good Game Villian of the Week" eh? Yeah there are not picks and mildly annoying things, but the nit picks in a well written Arc like Frieza or Cell is going to overtake any annoying logical Fallacy because we suspend our disbelief enough to let the story we're engrossed in continue. I don't care if SCIENCE FICTION is perfectly logical. I read textbooks for logic, I want an entertaining plot. Again, by reading this I'm suspending my disbelief by default. What universe has dinosaurs from all Mesozoic periods running around chasing flying cars driven by spiky gold haired aliens with tails that turn into Giant Apes once in a full moon? There's no logic to that by default. But it's awesome as hell. Giant fire breathing robot dinosaurs? That's not a disguise, where would you hide? But that's awesome as hell! The 800 quadrillion credit giant space planet busting super weapon gets killed because a farm boy threw a bomb in a vent that they forgot to cover up. How? But that was awesome as hell!

Point is, when logic wins over plot, science fiction/fantasy plots become quite boring and unreadable.
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+ Pyrus
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Plot wins. Logic be damned, especially in shows with a heavy fighting aspect. If a protagonist needs to get one hundred times stronger to beat an antagonist, that's what the plot calls for and that's what it'll get, regardless of whether it's even logical for that power-up to come to fruition.

And then there are cases like Gotenks in the BBQ Pit that don't make any logical sense and have no purpose to the plot, but they still exist. I mean purpose as in, Boo didn't need to be 400x stronger than anyone thus Gotenks didn't also need to acquire that kind of power - the story would've flowed fine regardless.
Edited by Pyrus, Jul 22 2014, 04:59 PM.
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The Internet Dictator
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Or if the plot calls for a a guy to survive a super amplified blast, plot wins again. Giving headaches to battle power fanboys
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+ Clearin
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A somewhat healthy mix. But power gains are always plot, Toriyama makes characters as strong or weak as he wants.

One thing to keep in mind is that he wrote these chapters the week before they were due, and didn't almost certainly have access to a computer. Anything that requires in-depth knowledge about the real physics and stuff likely wasn't on Toriyama's mind, and looking it up would have required a trip to the library, do you think he wants to research things in the short timespan he has to make sure his manga aimed at elementary/middle schoolers is factually accurate?

Of course logic still applies in many cases, like if Toriyama says Cell is faster than Gohan, it's not likely Chaozu is going to be faster than Cell. Though if Toriyama wanted he could make Chaozu train for a day and end up faster than Cell...
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Pyrus
Jul 22 2014, 04:58 PM
Plot wins. Logic be damned, especially in shows with a heavy fighting aspect. If a protagonist needs to get one hundred times stronger to beat an antagonist, that's what the plot calls for and that's what it'll get, regardless of whether it's even logical for that power-up to come to fruition.

And then there are cases like Gotenks in the BBQ Pit that don't make any logical sense and have no purpose to the plot, but they still exist. I mean purpose as in, Boo didn't need to be 400x stronger than anyone thus Gotenks didn't also need to acquire that kind of power - the story would've flowed fine regardless.
Which is why I find it funny when people say there's no way in Hell Goku and Vegeta would catch up to Gotenks and Gohan by the time Battle of Gods rolls around. Gotenks got stronger than his Ssj form in about week? K. Goku and Vegeta caught up to Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in 4 years!? Preposterous!
EDIT: I would like to say though that I think I've found logical ways to make Gotenks, Goku, and Vegeta super strong. Reduce the Ssj FP multiplier to 10 times to fit Toriyama's preference, give Gotenks a rival boost, and let Goku and Vegeta keep the rival boost Vegetto received because the fusion was supposed to be permanent.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jul 22 2014, 06:54 PM.
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TheACE
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Oh lord Battle of Gods was a logical mess. It was fun, but damn. I may have to do a past the power levels special on that
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魔王子

I don't see how it's a logical mess to be honest. The only outlandish things in the film were Vegeta's rage boost and the pure hearted Saiyajins thing. Other that it was fine IMO.
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TheACE
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Well aside from nitpicks like Gohan being able to turn off his Mystic powers apparently. It's just be supreme info dump at the end of the movie. Granted it's a sequel hook,, but what else does it do at the movie? Nothing! If anything it makes it worse because now we haven't resolved the plot. And it doesn't help that the whole thing is set before the Uub fight but after the Kid Buu conflict. But that just kills suspense on the plot side of things really... So there's that. But again, I'm really just nitpicking. Come to think of it Saber wrote a thread for nitpicks and gripes, I may invade that.
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魔王子

All we need to know is that Goku has many challenges ahead. There could be no other movie, and we'd have a satisfying conclusion. Dragon Ball always leaves things open-ended.
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Saberoph
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I would rather have a little of both, I believe even in DBZ you can have both. Of course that's not what we got, but we could have gotten that and I believe the story would've been just fine. Personally, I believe the story could have been just as great if not greater had we had both plot and logic from start to finish.
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POOHEAD189
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I prefer going with Logic unless "plot" reasons are completely undeniable. Call me old fashioned.
Tha gaol agam ort. <3
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