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[Summer 2014 Budokai] Who is the better villain/character: Cooler or Freeza?; Pelador vs Super Saiyan
Topic Started: Jul 17 2014, 09:41 PM (1,413 Views)
Emmeth
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Round 1, Match 3: Pelador vs Super Saiyan

Topic: Who is the better villain/character: Cooler or Freeza?

Rules:

1) Only the thread's participants are allowed to post.
2) Participants will be eliminated if they don't respond within 48 hours.
3) The debate must be concluded within 1 week.
4) Everybody is expected to be civil during the tournament.

Good luck and have fun!
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Just going to say that I'm supporting Freeza here. I'll try to get my opening post out tomorrow if I can.
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Starting off, I’d like to make everyone aware of how necessary to the story Freeza was. Let’s go through some what-ifs, assuming Freeza did not exist. I’m going to take a very extreme route here, but I think if there was no Freeza, the entire manga would not exist as well. Freeza was one of the top dogs of the planet trade organization (PTO), which was directly responsible for controlling the saiyans. Here is an image to show the PTO.

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While Freeza may not directly be the top dog, he is definitely a large authority in the organization. Here are a few things that we know about the PTO.

-They have over 100 planets in their control (Daizenshuu 4).
-They colonize the planets that the own.
-They take the strongest warriors from the planets they have conquered, and add them to their fighting force.
-The saiyans are the people used to take over planets, and prepare them to sell.

Now you may be asking what any of this to do with the point I previously made. If you eliminate the PTO which is heavily influenced by Freeza, you also eliminate the saiyans taking over other planets. As far as we know, this is the only reason that the saiyans have spaceships, and why the weaker babies are sent off to other planets. If you apply this to Son Goku, you would see that it’s very unlikely that he would even need to be sent off of planet Vegeta. In the manga, Raditz states that Goku was sent away to conquer the earth, and prepare it to sell. Had the PTO not existed, there would be no reason for the saiyans to take over these planets, let alone leave their own. So if you get where I’m going with this, Goku wouldn’t have ever gone to earth. Considering that the majority of the manga is based around Goku, I think this is a pretty major impact that Freeza has had.

Now let’s look at what Cooler contributed to the main story. When Goku was sent off of planet Vegeta, his ship flew near Cooler’s ship, and Cooler had the opportunity to kill him. However, Cooler allowed him to escape because he didn’t think Goku would be any sort of threat. So let’s do exactly what we did above. Say we are to completely eliminate Cooler, does anything even change? The answer is no. Cooler allowed Goku to go to earth anyway, so if he did not exist the exact same would occur. Not only this, but I believe it shows some stupidity and laziness on Cooler’s part. Cooler said that since they were in Freeza’s quadrant of the universe, he would let Freeza handle Goku. That sure turned out well for him, leading to his entire family’s demise. Had he not been so lazy, he could have had the same type of impact on the story that Freeza had.

Next, I’m going to demonstrate why Freeza was much smarter than Cooler by continuing from the last point. Here are some very interesting quotes.

Chapter: 257 (DBZ 63), P11.5, P12.2-3
Context: Dodoria explains how stronger and stronger Saiyans like Vegeta were appearing.
Dodoria: “Th…the power of individual Saiyans is absolutely no match for L-Lord Freeza, but…If many Saiyans joined together, they would be-become quite troublesome…F-furthermore, among a small portion of Saiyans, outstanding warriors such as yourself were born, and had begun to increase…Since you weren’t a race who would obediently listen to orders if you started gaining power, at that point Lord Freeza thought that he needed to take steps…So he personally wiped out Planet Vegeta and the Saiyans along with it! But Vegeta! You should thank Lord Freeza! Since you, the prince, looked to have genius talent, he purposefully targeted the planet when you weren’t there!”

Chapter: 262 (DBZ 68), P3.2
Context: after Vegeta says Freeza was afraid of the Saiyans
Zarbon: “You’re getting pretty damn high and mighty! What Lord Freeza feared was the Saiyans combining into a unified faction! On your own you can’t do anything!”


This shows that while Freeza is still a cocky guy, he has definitely got a good head on his shoulders. He went to the length of exterminating the race that literally does the heavy lifting in the PTO simply to protect himself. He literally left as few chances for the saiyans to rebel as possible, whereas Cooler simply allowed a saiyans to leave in front of his own eyes. Now of course Freeza kept a couple of saiyans alive, but he still had them under his control. Cooler let a random saiyans leave who ended up turning into his own killer. Also it is obvious in the manga that Freeza has never heard of Goku before, so he wasn’t the one that allowed Goku to live.

I’m getting this next part from my Viz, but this comes from Third Form Freeza right after Gohan attacks him.

Freeza: “I must not allow any saiyan to live any more… I must exterminate all saiyans blood… I don’t believe in that ridiculous super saiyans legend… but still, it doesn’t hurt to be careful…”

I believe this proves to us that Freeza is very cautious, and is always looking out for himself. Despite Freeza still having literally over 100,000,000 of battle power that he had not shown, he wanted to eliminate these saiyans runts when he had the chance. Notice I use the word chance, because Cooler completely screwed up his chance. Cooler had even watched Freeza destroy planet Vegeta, so he knew that the saiyans should all be killed. Yet when he saw Goku go by him, he didn’t seem to care enough to do anything. I believe compounding all of this together, it proves that Freeza is the smarter out of the two brothers.

The next thing I would like to touch on would be the people who follow Freeza. Freeza has the Ginyu Force, as well as many other subordinates. Cooler has the Armored Squadron. So let’s first take a look at the Armored Squadron.

Daizenshuu 7
 
Sauzer
The leader of the Armored Squad. For his special attack, he can fire his ki from five fingers and concentrate it on his right hand, forming an energy hand blade.

Neiz
He has a weird, amphibian-like appearance, and when he's about to be hit by an attack, he'll pull his head into his body like a turtle. His weapon is an electric wave.

Dore
A strongman-type warrior who specializes in powerful attacks. He's normally composed, but he soon gets hot-headed when provoked.


Let’s just face it, these guys are simply lackluster in comparison to the Ginyu Force. Sauzer has one cool ability to form a sword out of his hand, but other than that he is pretty generic. Neiz and Dore were nothing special either, they had no specialities and had no strongpoints. They are simply generic fighters. This squadron is literally all that we see with Cooler.

Now let’s flip over to Freeza. First of all, he has got the Ginyu Force. Each member of the force is highly unique in that they have special abilities or advantages. Guldo has time freeze, Recoome has his durability, Jeice seems to be the ki expert (only member with a named attack (Crusher Ball)) and Burter has his super speed. That’s not even including the captain of the force, who has the ability to change bodies. I think by comparing Freeza’s private force to Cooler’s, it’s pretty clear that Freeza got the better squad in terms of uniqueness. Not only this, but he has an entire army at his disposal. He had his personal assistants Zarbon and Dodoria, elite fighters like Cui and Vegeta (used to have Vegeta), and then lower peons like Appule. This isn’t even including the thousands of soldiers he possesses. Cooler wasn’t shown to have anything like this, at least in Movie 5. In Movie 6 there were those robot things, but that was basically all of the support Cooler had. So it seems to me that Freeza is better at seeing talent, and recruiting men.

Now it’s time to delve into the actual characters. One thing in particular that I enjoy about Freeza is that he enjoys having fun every now and then. He simply has a blast blowing up planets and killing people. Cooler proved to be one of the most robotic characters in the series. He had a mission to kill Goku, there was no fun to be had. Even his commands to his Armored Squadron seemed overly cold. For example he forced them to search every inch of the land that they destroyed, and they couldn’t rest until they found Goku. That’s not to say Freeza didn’t ever act like a b***, because he clearly did when Zarbon failed him. It’s just that Freeza had more than one emotion to him, Cooler was just a jackass to be perfectly honest.

The second part of Freeza’s character that I’d like to speak about is his ruthlessness in battle. I think some manga scans are necessary here.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Freeza loves to watch people suffer, and toy around with them. Just look at what he forced Piccolo, Krillin and Gohan to go through here. He literally stands meters away from them while slowly torturing Vegeta, and even taunts them while he’s at it. The next scans are probably the greatest examples of all though.

Spoiler: click to toggle


This is one of my most vivid memories of Freeza. This was the first time in the manga that we witnessed something so disgusting and vile. Freeza brought the fear to a whole different level by doing this, and it goes to show how ruthless and cold he is.

The final point that I want to make during this post relates to the Eldest Namek. Freeza had enough evil within him to cause the Eldest Namek to die a premature death. His actions on that short period of time on the planet literally had enough power to damage the Eldest Namek’s health, which just goes to show the amount of evil he brings with him.

And that’s what I have so far, Pel. Excited to get this debate going.
Edited by Super Saiyan, Jul 19 2014, 05:47 AM.
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You've argued that Freeza is more important to the story and you've done it convincingly. Without Freeza, there would be no Super Saiyans and everyone would have been killed by the Androids.

So he is important I grant you that. But it doesn't make him a better villain and here's why.

He spent 3/4 of the saga doing literally nothing. It wasn't until Ginyu went to fight Goku that Freeza put down his wine and actually did something. You called Cooler lazy earlier for allowing Goku to escape but actually Cooler jumped straight into the action on planet Earth. Contrary to Freeza who just sat and let all his soldiers get picked off one by one. Had Cooler been there instead then nobody would have had a chance. You said Freeza was the more ruthless but it was Cooler who got stuff done and dusted. He didn't rely on his underlings. He went right for the kill from the word go. And with an expressionless, cold persona too. That's ruthless.

You see the better villain is not who contributes to the story more, it's who is more dangerous and more threatening. Who would you least like to come up against? Now considering that Cooler has that utterly bad a*** fifth form, I'd say it's definitely him that you want to avoid.

His fifth form was way more menacing than anything Freeza threw out too. It had that robotic sounding voice and that Cyber Shredder look from the Ninja Turtles. He looked as though he cut cut you to pieces in one move. In comparison, Freeza's forms looked silly and unintimidating.

Now I'm going to compare their personalities. Freeza was arrogant, impatient, impetuous, quick to anger and generally emotional. When the going got tough he panicked and tried to blow up the planet, but he lacked the strength of character to go all the way through with it and he ended up holding back too much. Cooler on the other hand was level headed even when he was losing. He was the kind of character who always had an ace up his sleeve. The transformation being one of them and then the quote he says when he's being blasted into the sun. "Just wait 'till I get off this..." Or something in that regard. It points towards him having a plan C. Something Freeza never had.

Then there's that quote. "I kill when I want. The weak die and the strong survive." Not only is it a really villainous thing to say but it highlights his ruthlessness. He is evil. Up until that point he's seemed like a pretty cool guy, just doing what needed to be done. But that one line reveals just how evil he really is. Freeza was a psychopath yes but Cooler was a sociopath. That's far more dangerous if you ask me.

And that's why I think that Cooler is better.

Edited by Pelador, Jul 19 2014, 01:00 PM.


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You've argued that Freeza is more important to the story and you've done it convincingly. Without Freeza, there would be no Super Saiyans and everyone would have been killed by the Androids.

So he is important I grant you that. But it doesn't make him a better villain and here's why.

I can agree to a degree, but I still feel it's very important in the decision. After all, who is going to remember the villain who had less of an impact on the story? Let's look to Z right now. If we were to conduct a survey to see everyone's favourite villain on this site, do you think anyone would choose Android 19? Of course there are many factors to consider which I will address, but you're more likely to remember the villain who had the greater impact.

Quote:
 
He spent 3/4 of the saga doing literally nothing. It wasn't until Ginyu went to fight Goku that Freeza put down his wine and actually did something. You called Cooler lazy earlier for allowing Goku to escape but actually Cooler jumped straight into the action on planet Earth. Contrary to Freeza who just sat and let all his soldiers get picked off one by one. Had Cooler been there instead then nobody would have had a chance. You said Freeza was the more ruthless but it was Cooler who got stuff done and dusted. He didn't rely on his underlings. He went right for the kill from the word go. And with an expressionless, cold persona too. That's ruthless.

Is this really true? Freeza arrived on Namek with his men, and immediately went to hunt for the Dragon Balls. Freeza had collected around 4 or 5 Dragon Balls (I think) by the time the earthlings and Vegeta arrived on Namek. I think what you're not remembering is that the elder Moori pretty much put an end to Freeza's ability to locate the Dragon Balls.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Does this ring any bells? Freeza did not have the ability to sense, similar to Cooler. This meant that when Moori broke the scouters, Freeza had no way to locate the remaining Namekians. This is why it seemed as though he sat around doing nothing. He called in the Ginyu Force because 1) they would have scouters, and 2) they would get the job done. So while it seems like Freeza was being a lazy guy, he had no choice.

Quote:
 
You see the better villain is not who contributes to the story more, it's who is more dangerous and more threatening.

I definitely don't disagree with this.

Quote:
 
Who would you least like to come up against? Now considering that Cooler has that utterly bad a*** fifth form, I'd say it's definitely him that you want to avoid.

His fifth form was way more menacing than anything Freeza threw out too. It had that robotic sounding voice and that Cyber Shredder look from the Ninja Turtles. He looked as though he cut cut you to pieces in one move. In comparison, Freeza's forms looked silly and unintimidating.

I agree with you that Cooler had a very awesome looking fifth form, but personally I didn't find it all that intimidating.

Spoiler: click to toggle

I dunno if this is just me, but I found these two forms to be terrifying when I was a kid. I think that was partially to do with the actions that each of the forms committed, but they downright scared me. When I saw Cooler, my thoughts were like this. "Damn, this guy looks awesome!". When I saw these forms of Freeza I was thinking that he was horrifying. One may consider these forms to be silly, but I did not see them that way. Hell. even Krillin was visibly terrified of the potential form that Freeza had yet to show.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Quote:
 
Now I'm going to compare their personalities. Freeza was arrogant, impatient, impetuous, quick to anger and generally emotional. When the going got tough he panicked and tried to blow up the planet, but he lacked the strength of character to go all the way through with it and he ended up holding back too much. Cooler on the other hand was level headed even when he was losing. He was the kind of character who always had an ace up his sleeve. The transformation being one of them and then the quote he says when he's being blasted into the sun. "Just wait 'till I get off this..." Or something in that regard. It points towards him having a plan C. Something Freeza never had.

Then there's that quote. "I kill when I want. The weak die and the strong survive." Not only is it a really villainous thing to say but it highlights his ruthlessness. He is evil. Up until that point he's seemed like a pretty cool guy, just doing what needed to be done. But that one line reveals just how evil he really is. Freeza was a psychopath yes but Cooler was a sociopath. That's far more dangerous if you ask me.

I can agree with all the emotions that you used to describe Freeza, but I don't see those qualities as negatives. Freeza is used to getting what he wants, and when he wants it. When things don't go his way, he does become very impatient. This can be seen as both good and bad. Looking at the positive perspective, his impatience shows that he does have a desire to get what he wants, and as quickly as possible.

Also looking at Freeza blowing up the planet, you must consider things from his perspective. Being the galactic ruler, Freeza would do anything that he could to destroy Goku and survive. Sure he didn't actually blow up the planet instantly, but that was never his intention. Take a look at this manga page I found.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Goku knew that Freeza had the same intention as himself. Freeza wanted to battle Goku to the death, which is why he didn't put more power into his blast, or fire at the planet again. So really it's not a cowardly move on Freeza's part, he still wanted to finish his battle with Goku at full power.

I think the final quote you mentioned adds to the point I made in my first post. It demonstrates that Cooler is an extremely cold person and is indeed evil. But to say that Freeza does not share this ruthlessness is simply incorrect. Both Cooler and Freeza are equally evil, they just have different ways on acting on their evilness.



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Freeza had plenty of chances to take things into his own hands. Instead he sends Dodoria, Zarbon and then the Ginyu force to do his dirty work. He has plenty of power. It's not like Vegeta is going to somehow defeat him. So I'm not entirely sure why he didn't just go after him himself. Other than for the sake of the plot of course. But yes, had Freeza been more pro active then he might have managed to keep the Dragonballs for himself. Basically I think he's a bit of an idiot.

I'm going to choose to forget about Cooler and Freeza's forms and how intimidating they are because I think a lot of that is simply down to personal opinion and so therefore cannot be objectively critiqued.

As for when Freeza tried to blow up Namek. He didn't spare the planet because he wanted a fight with Goku. Otherwise he wouldn't have done it in the first place. His actions reeked of desperation. I would quote what Goku says about it but I don't know any legitimate manga scan websites. He basically confirms what I was saying that Freeza didn't want to risk hurting himself too much from the resulting explosion. So he held back. It strikes me that Freeza is a coward. He was practically soiling himself when Goku transformed. Cooler on the other hand didn't even blink. It just made him more angry.

Freeza is a coward and Cooler is hard as nails. But you're correct about them both being evil. Two different kinds of evil of course. I personally think Cooler's is the more threatening as I've already stated but as with the design of the forms, this again comes down to personal opinion and not much more.
Edited by Pelador, Jul 20 2014, 01:02 PM.


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Freeza had plenty of chances to take things into his own hands. Instead he sends Dodoria, Zarbon and then the Ginyu force to do his dirty work. He has plenty of power. It's not like Vegeta is going to somehow defeat him. So I'm not entirely sure why he didn't just go after him himself. Other than for the sake of the plot of course. But yes, had Freeza been more pro active then he might have managed to keep the Dragonballs for himself. Basically I think he's a bit of an idiot.

You have to keep in mind that Freeza had no way to actually find Vegeta. Vegeta learned how to suppress his ki, so it was impossible for the scouters to trace him. I think that's why Freeza sent out his men to look for him. While you're correct in saying that Freeza didn't want to get his hands dirty, he still couldn't locate Vegeta. And did Cooler not do the same thing? When Cooler and the Armored Squadron arrived on earth, Cooler sent to Squadron out to do his work. Granted cooler did step in later on, but so did Freeza. And recall, after Cooler shot down Goku, he made the Armored Squadron find him. Cooler didn't want to get his hands dirty either.

Quote:
 
I'm going to choose to forget about Cooler and Freeza's forms and how intimidating they are because I think a lot of that is simply down to personal opinion and so therefore cannot be objectively critiqued.

Agreed.

Quote:
 
As for when Freeza tried to blow up Namek. He didn't spare the planet because he wanted a fight with Goku. Otherwise he wouldn't have done it in the first place. His actions reeked of desperation. I would quote what Goku says about it but I don't know any legitimate manga scan websites. He basically confirms what I was saying that Freeza didn't want to risk hurting himself too much from the resulting explosion. So he held back. It strikes me that Freeza is a coward. He was practically soiling himself when Goku transformed. Cooler on the other hand didn't even blink. It just made him more angry.

Look at the context though. Freeza can't sense, so he doesn't know exactly how powerful Super Saiyan Goku was. He was only at 50% power when he tried to blow up the planet, so he still had half of his power to reveal. Goku literally states that Freeza wanted to battle it out, which is why he didn't just fire again at the planet. Freeza then smirks at him showing that he agrees.
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So I think that we've both argued our cases pretty well. I'm not sure there's much more that we can add without risking repeating ourselves. Can we conclude this one now or do you think there's still more to be argued?


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Personally I'm good to go. That was an awesome debate Pel, a lot of fun. I think that was the first character debate I've ever taken part in.

Judges can feel free to evaluate now.
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Alright to wrap things up:

TConnor_Demonic
 
SuperSaiyan2: 7.5/10

Pelador: 6/10

Pro's of SS2: I felt that (obviously as we could objectively see) SS2's opening and his subsequent posts had much more effort put into them than Pelador's, going as far as bringing in quotes, scans, and guidebook entries into his argument in a colorful mix with his own subjective opinion. Which is always a plus, although this is a rather odd thing to judge since it's based on the debator's opinion. But I feel that bringing source material and guidebooks to support your argument can give a noticeable 1up.

Pro's of Pelador: I must admit he took me by surprise with this one, I didn't expect him to put up THAT much effort into this debate. Blew me out of the water definitely.

Cons of SSJ2: I must iterate that I have a hard time seeing flaws in a debate like this unless they're obvious, luckily these SS2 were capable of keeping out anything obvious...atleast from what I anyway.

Cons of Pelador: Whilst his effort is well appreciated I feel as though he could've attempted to bring in some scans or images to support his points a little bit better, while any dragonball fan would likely know how Cooler looks, it still doesn't hurt to remind them EXACTLY why he looked fearsome. This is something I feel SS2 succeeded in showing.


lazerbem
 
7.5/10 for Super Saiyan

Pros: Well organized and seems unbiased, using mostly facts to back his opinion
Cons: Seemed a bit..dull at times, like an encyclopedia

7/10 for Pelador

Pros: Also well organized and used facts
Cons: Used quite a few opinions, such as the look of Cooler being awesome


Itachi
 

SSJ2: 8/10
Pelador: 6/10

SSJ2:

Pros: Overwhelming evidence; posting all sorts organized graphs and data. Going very deep into the background of Freeza and softly debunking counterarguments.
Cons: Possibly a bit wordy of a few parts. Could have cut out a bunch of sentences to be more succinct.

Pelador

Pros: Convincing style of face to face arguments.
Cons: The negative was mainly based on the positive. Too informal for a formal debate and relying too much on opinion without hard evidence (would have been fine with more solid evidence).


SSJ2 Grand Total: 23
Pelador Grand Total: 19

Congratulations to SSJ2 on making it to the second round. You certainly earned your keep.

Better luck next time to Pelador, who could become a fierce competitor with a few tweaks.

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I think since my point of view was changed by SSJ2's arguements, I found it difficult to objectively give reasons for Cooler to be a better villain. Tried my best though. I will do better next time. Congrats to SSJ2. Definitely convinced me.



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