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[Summer 2014 Budokai] SSJ Mirai Gohan Gauntlet; Naked Snake vs POOHEAD189
Topic Started: Jul 17 2014, 07:06 PM (2,104 Views)
Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Round 1, Match 1: Naked Snake vs POOHEAD189

Topic: SSJ Mirai Gohan Gauntlet - Who's the strongest opponent he can defeat?

Rules:

1) Only the thread's participants are allowed to post.
2) Participants will be eliminated if they don't respond within 48 hours.
3) The debate must be concluded within 1 week.
4) Everybody is expected to be civil during the tournament.

Good luck and have fun!
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Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Right then, I'll make my opening statement.

If we're talking about the manga, which I assume we are, I believe that SSJ Mirai Gohan could defeat Mecha Freeza and potentially beat SSJ Mirai Trunks, having more battle experience.
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POOHEAD189
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I would argue that Mirai Gohan could potentially be near equal terms to Android Saga Goku (before RoSaT).

I've made a certain equation on his power before. Lemme see...
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I'm assuming the future Androids are on par with the present Androids during this arguement.

If that is true, then you might be thinking "Oh, Gohan couldn't even match half power" but check again. Android 17 states that he did not use half of his power last time. Since he said half and not a quarter or a fraction, we can assume that Android 17 was above 25% power. I'd estimate he was using 40% against Mirai Gohan in the previous battle.
Then, a year later, Mirai Gohan returns, confident he can beat both him and his sister from the powers they showed last time. Which, imo, gives Gohan a powerlevel that rivals over 60% of the Android's strength. Which could be comparable to Android Saga Vegeta, unless you're with the theory that he fought Android 18 on equal terms and it was merely her infinite energy that let her win.
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Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Interesting!

Firstly, I'd like to explore the power of the Future Androids.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P10.3
Context: more comparing the future androids to the present ones
Trunks: “Wh-why has history changed this much?...The an-androids’ power wasn’t on so much of a different level…And there were only 2 of them…”

From this, we can tell that SSJ Future Trunks is around the Future Androids strength-wise. You could argue that the Future Androids were holding back against Trunks, so there's no evidence for either side.

Now we can get into Gohan's strength.

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P2.5
Context: Trunks commented on how Gohan’s gi made Bulma think of Goku.
Future Gohan: “I made it hoping it would make me as strong as dad was before he died… But I guess it’s not that easy"

This statement is admittance that Gohan is inferior to Goku when he returned to Earth from Yardrat. Then we get this quote;

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P14.4, P15.1-2
Trunks: “…I think I’m strong enough to beat the Androids now. We don’t have to go study them in the past!”
Future Bulma: “You’re too naïve. It’s true that you’ve gotten astoundingly strong, but have you forgotten how Gohan was killed 3 years ago? I don’t think you’re that amazingly different than Gohan back then"

Though Bulma can't sense ki, Trunks never disputes this claim. It's essentially saying that Trunks and Gohan are on the same level, with Trunks most likely being a bit stronger. Where does this leave us?

SSJ Goku (Post-Yardrat) > SSJ Future Trunks >~ SSJ Future Gohan > Mecha Freeza

Instead of the Future Androids being used to judge Gohan's power, Gohan's power should be used to judge the power of the Future Androids. What do we have in the end?

Present Androids > SSJ Vegeta > Future Androids >~ SSJ Future Trunks (Android Saga) > SSJ Goku (Post-Yardrat) > SSJ Future Trunks > SSJ Future Gohan (One arm) > Future #17 (<50%) > SSJ Future Gohan (Two arms)
Edited by Yu Narukami, Jul 18 2014, 10:34 AM.
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POOHEAD189
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Quote:
 
Firstly, I'd like to explore the power of the Future Androids.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P10.3
Context: more comparing the future androids to the present ones
Trunks: “Wh-why has history changed this much?...The an-androids’ power wasn’t on so much of a different level…And there were only 2 of them…”

From this, we can tell that SSJ Future Trunks is around the Future Androids strength-wise. You could argue that the Future Androids were holding back against Trunks, so there's no evidence for either side.

That was to be my argument since that's how Gohan died, so we can just make that null for now.
Quote:
 
Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P2.5
Context: Trunks commented on how Gohan’s gi made Bulma think of Goku.
Future Gohan: “I made it hoping it would make me as strong as dad was before he died… But I guess it’s not that easy"

This statement is admittance that Gohan is inferior to Goku when he returned to Earth from Yardrat. Then we get this quote;

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P14.4, P15.1-2
Trunks: “…I think I’m strong enough to beat the Androids now. We don’t have to go study them in the past!”
Future Bulma: “You’re too naïve. It’s true that you’ve gotten astoundingly strong, but have you forgotten how Gohan was killed 3 years ago? I don’t think you’re that amazingly different than Gohan back then"

Though Bulma can't sense ki, Trunks never disputes this claim. It's essentially saying that Trunks and Gohan are on the same level, with Trunks most likely being a bit stronger. Where does this leave us?

SSJ Goku (Post-Yardrat) > SSJ Future Trunks >~ SSJ Future Gohan > Mecha Freeza

Instead of the Future Androids being used to judge Gohan's power, Gohan's power should be used to judge the power of the Future Androids. What do we have in the end?

Present Androids > SSJ Vegeta > Future Androids >~ SSJ Future Trunks (Android Saga) > SSJ Goku (Post-Yardrat) > SSJ Future Trunks > SSJ Future Gohan (One arm) > Future #17 (<50%) > SSJ Future Gohan (Two arms)

A good argument.
Honestly I view the quotes a bit differently. I had deduced that Gohan was referring to "strength of character" on the lines that the gi was of sentimental value and not an actual training tool. I think he was implying that Gohan was saying that he wanted to be a strong force like his father, since it was always Goku who would show up and finish the battle or be the deciding point in a power struggle. Instead of him being "as strong as dad" which would imply that his powerlevel was still weaker than Goku's. I think it's pretty logical, and if that's true wouldn't Gohan only fight the Androids if he thought he was inferior to Goku/Vegeta? Granted Goku was killed before he could fight the Androids, but unless you have Vegeta much much weaker than Goku even as a SSJ, I'd say Gohan logically thought he must have been more than a match for at least 2 Vegeta's, since Android 17 killed him alone.
And to be honest, I never really saw much credence to Bulma and Trunk's conversation. However you are right to assume that, if Trunks was going to attack the androids, he must not have been too far behind or equal to Mirai Gohan. Though that begs the question on why he would attempt to fight them in the first place if he was near the equal power of Gohan, other than to say he was acting irrationally. I'd argue that it wasn't too big of an issue between Trunks and Bulma to where he didn't disagree or agree. It would be like if I walked into my house after working out for an hour, and I think I can fight a pro wrestler, and my mother goes "You're strong but you're not better."

However, I did just look it up and the diaz says that the Future Androids were "somewhat inferior is strength" so you do have that going for you. I do not believe the guidebook is right on all things but I'd be willing to cut Gohan's power by 10-15 percent.
Would you think that Gohan had a chance against Android 19?
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Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

POOHEAD189
Jul 18 2014, 05:09 PM
Quote:
 
Firstly, I'd like to explore the power of the Future Androids.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P10.3
Context: more comparing the future androids to the present ones
Trunks: “Wh-why has history changed this much?...The an-androids’ power wasn’t on so much of a different level…And there were only 2 of them…”

From this, we can tell that SSJ Future Trunks is around the Future Androids strength-wise. You could argue that the Future Androids were holding back against Trunks, so there's no evidence for either side.

That was to be my argument since that's how Gohan died, so we can just make that null for now.
Quote:
 
Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P2.5
Context: Trunks commented on how Gohan’s gi made Bulma think of Goku.
Future Gohan: “I made it hoping it would make me as strong as dad was before he died… But I guess it’s not that easy"

This statement is admittance that Gohan is inferior to Goku when he returned to Earth from Yardrat. Then we get this quote;

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P14.4, P15.1-2
Trunks: “…I think I’m strong enough to beat the Androids now. We don’t have to go study them in the past!”
Future Bulma: “You’re too naïve. It’s true that you’ve gotten astoundingly strong, but have you forgotten how Gohan was killed 3 years ago? I don’t think you’re that amazingly different than Gohan back then"

Though Bulma can't sense ki, Trunks never disputes this claim. It's essentially saying that Trunks and Gohan are on the same level, with Trunks most likely being a bit stronger. Where does this leave us?

SSJ Goku (Post-Yardrat) > SSJ Future Trunks >~ SSJ Future Gohan > Mecha Freeza

Instead of the Future Androids being used to judge Gohan's power, Gohan's power should be used to judge the power of the Future Androids. What do we have in the end?

Present Androids > SSJ Vegeta > Future Androids >~ SSJ Future Trunks (Android Saga) > SSJ Goku (Post-Yardrat) > SSJ Future Trunks > SSJ Future Gohan (One arm) > Future #17 (<50%) > SSJ Future Gohan (Two arms)

A good argument.
Honestly I view the quotes a bit differently. I had deduced that Gohan was referring to "strength of character" on the lines that the gi was of sentimental value and not an actual training tool. I think he was implying that Gohan was saying that he wanted to be a strong force like his father, since it was always Goku who would show up and finish the battle or be the deciding point in a power struggle. Instead of him being "as strong as dad" which would imply that his powerlevel was still weaker than Goku's. I think it's pretty logical, and if that's true wouldn't Gohan only fight the Androids if he thought he was inferior to Goku/Vegeta? Granted Goku was killed before he could fight the Androids, but unless you have Vegeta much much weaker than Goku even as a SSJ, I'd say Gohan logically thought he must have been more than a match for at least 2 Vegeta's, since Android 17 killed him alone.
And to be honest, I never really saw much credence to Bulma and Trunk's conversation. However you are right to assume that, if Trunks was going to attack the androids, he must not have been too far behind or equal to Mirai Gohan. Though that begs the question on why he would attempt to fight them in the first place if he was near the equal power of Gohan, other than to say he was acting irrationally. I'd argue that it wasn't too big of an issue between Trunks and Bulma to where he didn't disagree or agree. It would be like if I walked into my house after working out for an hour, and I think I can fight a pro wrestler, and my mother goes "You're strong but you're not better."

However, I did just look it up and the diaz says that the Future Androids were "somewhat inferior is strength" so you do have that going for you. I do not believe the guidebook is right on all things but I'd be willing to cut Gohan's power by 10-15 percent.
Would you think that Gohan had a chance against Android 19?
Good post!

It's very possible that Gohan was talking about strength of character, I'll give you that, but the ''I guess it's not that easy'' at the end makes me think that it's a power statement. In the context of a destroyed future, statements like that are much more likely to be about power; Gohan's a pretty hardened and serious character in this timeline, I think he'd realise that having Goku's strength of character wouldn't really help. It makes much more sense to say that he's talking about power, as the Androids were probably always at the forefront of his mind.

Vegeta's power in the future is totally up in the air. He may have been a Super Saiyan, but we have no idea how strong he was. If he was very strong, surely somebody would've acknowledged that? Neither Gohan nor the Androids make mention of his power, so he was either a very weak Super Saiyan, or he didn't achieve the transformation at all. Gohan had no idea how strong the Androids really were. He thought he was forcing them to use close to their full power during one of their previous battles. He was confident that he was superior to the power that the Androids showed in that fight, so he assumed that Future #17 (<50%) = Future #17 (100%).

Regarding Trunks, he never sensed Gohan's final fight. He was likely under the assumption that Gohan had pushed the Androids quite far, and that he was strong enough to destroy them. He obviously got proven wrong, shown by his comments later on in the Android Saga, but for the initial fight, he was under the same assumption as Gohan.

#19? Hmm, that's tricky. It's all about how you view the gains in the 3 years. If you have huge gains, then no. Individually, the Future Androids were about equal to SSJ Future Trunks (Android Saga), so if you have him, say, having a 3x gain while training, the Future Androids' power would rise with him and Gohan would fall even further behind. What's your opinion on it?
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POOHEAD189
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Well in the Future Timeline, Goku obviously arrived on earth and killed both Freiza and King Cold. Vegeta would have been present to watch and, despite not knowing of the approaching Androids, would have pursued the Super Saiyan form with a determination. It's up in the air but I would say its safe to say he was one by the time of his death.
As for Android 19. If Future Trunks is near equal to Gohan, and both are greater than Piccolo, who beat Android 20 easily enough, I would say Mirai Gohan could take Android 19 and perhaps 20, as long as they didn't drain his energy. So if the theory of the Mirai Androids being equal power to the present is nullified, then I would say the strongest character Mirai Gohan could beat would be Android 19/20 and perhaps Trunks.
Edited by POOHEAD189, Jul 19 2014, 04:18 AM.
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Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Sorry for the delay!

That's a good point about Vegeta. How strong he actually is, however, is left to the imagination. I'd argue that he lost his will to train and fight after Goku died, just like he did after the Cell Games. I still think that he could've achieved SSJ, but he'd be a lot weaker than if he'd trained. This is my chain;

Present #18 > SSJ Vegeta (Present) > SSJ Goku (Healthy) > SSJ Future Trunks (Android Saga) > Future #17 (100%) > Piccolo > #20 (Post) > #19 (Post) > #20 (Pre) > #19 (Pre) > SSJ Future Trunks >~ SSJ Future Gohan (One arm) > Android #17 (<50%) > SSJ Future Gohan (2 arms)

It's really dependent on the gains you have the Z-Senshi making during the 3 year gap. The reason I have Trunks above Future #17 is that he said he could fight them both fairly well, implying that they had to tag-team him;

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…"

What would your chain be, Poohead?
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POOHEAD189
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Present #18 > SSJ Vegeta (Present) > SSJ Goku (Healthy) > Future #17 (100%) > SSJ Future Trunks (Android Saga) > Piccolo > #20 (Post) > #19 (Post) > SSJ Future Gohan (One arm) >~ SSJ Future Trunks > Android #17 (<50%) > #20 (Pre) > #19 (Pre) > SSJ Future Gohan (2 arms).

It's almost the same. Basically I just switched Android 19 and 20 (pre) and Mirai Gohan once or twice. And even though they're probably a bit weaker, I'm still thinking the Androids in the future were toying.

Edited by POOHEAD189, Jul 22 2014, 01:48 AM.
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Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

That's fair!

To be honest, I don't think I've got anything else at this point. I made all my arguments and we agree on almost anything, so I'll hand it over to you if you have any other point to make.
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Mihawk
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TConnor_Demonic
 
Miles: 7

Poohead: 6.7

Whilst this debate was very laidback, while the responses to each of each others posts were about on equal footing from what I saw, I feel Naked Snake's post regarding the Future Android's strength compared to the Present Android's was the deciding factor.

Pros: Both were capable of using source material, although it would seem Naked Snake used alot more.

Cons: Not many honestly. The ones that are apparent I can't really name aside from a lack of length, although that may be because there isn't much to write about.


Havoc_Wreaker
 
General note: another close debate, there was a lot of agreeing similar to the brofist and ketchup debate and there wasn't all that much to judge but here

POOHEAD189: 7.5
Naked Snake: 7.5

POOHEAD189

Pros: various outlooks and good interpretations of the power placements, a bit of outside information, had a manga scan
Cons: a tad bit more assumptions

Naked Snake

Pros: various outlooks and good interpretations of the power placements, good deductions
Cons: lack of outside information, no manga scans

I felt snake did a better job of analyzing a bit but stuck to quotes only and interpretations whereas poohead used a little more then just quotes
but still really close so a tie. good job guys.


Itachi
 
This was the most enjoyable one to me. I love how the two debaters were so courteous. Poohead was also really a surprise to me. I never realized he was this good.

Naked Snake: 8
POOHEAD189: 7

Naked Snake

Pros: Very well organized and methodical. This is what I love about reading his debates.

POOHEAD189

Pros: Interesting ways to go against mainstream interpretations and they actually make sense. Makes you actually reconsider the possibilities.

Cons for both: The thesis wasn't very clear for both sides. The debate "flowed" well, if you will, but didn't really seem to have a final target apart from disagreements and agreements.


Miles Grand Total: 22.5
Poohead Grand Total: 21.2

Good job Poohead, for putting up such a great fight.

And to Naked Snake: You've really shown that you're gonna be a threat to whoever battles you next.

Congrats to both of you.

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Super Saiyan
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That was a great debate guys, you both put up evidence that swayed me on my opinions.
Edited by Super Saiyan, Jul 26 2014, 06:25 AM.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Princess_Havoc

i actually enjoyed reading and judging it i,i wasnt like aww man what a bore
it was actually fun so both members well done
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