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|[Summer 2014 Budokai] SSJ Gohan vs Dabura; Urameshi vs Kienzan|
|Tweet Topic Started: Jul 16 2014, 09:11 PM (3,555 Views)|
|+ Emmeth||Jul 16 2014, 09:11 PM Post #1|
I ♥ Yoeri
Round 1, Match 2: Urameshi vs Kienzan
Topic: SSJ Gohan vs Dabura
1) Only the thread's participants are allowed to post.
2) Participants will be eliminated if they don't respond within 48 hours.
3) The debate must be concluded within 1 week.
4) Everybody is expected to be civil during the tournament.
Good luck and have fun!
|Kienzan||Jul 16 2014, 09:39 PM Post #2|
Just want to point out, I'm arguing that Dabura would defeat Gohan as he was in that fight. That means no rage boosts or anything.
I'll make my opening post later today, maybe tomorrow. Good luck, Yusuke.
|+ Yusuke||Jul 16 2014, 09:42 PM Post #3|
Likewise, i'll be arguing the opposite that Gohan is superior to Dabura.
Will be looking forward to Kienzan's first post.
|Kienzan||Jul 17 2014, 08:26 PM Post #4|
Alright, here goes. I'll try and keep this first one short.
Now, I'll start off saying why I think Dabura beats SSJ Gohan here, and then I have a couple of questions for you that I think will help this debate to progress in a smooth manner.
Okay, here's my first point. We're trying to work out who here is stronger, right? So who better to ask than the people present during the fight?
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: "Damn it...this is pissing me off! Alright, I'll finish this!"
Goku: "Don't, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain't like he's completely losing."
"It ain't like he's completely losing" suggests that he is partly losing (which means Dabura has the upper hand) but not totally.
And then we have Vegeta calling Gohan pathetic during his fight.
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: "Magic, huh? He's way stronger than I thought, ain't he?"
Vegeta: "Hmph...Even so, he's not an opponent [he? we?] can't win against. [Gohan]'s so pathetic...So much so that he was stronger as a brat..."
Goku: "He really did slack off!"
And then we have a statement from Dabura himself.
Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: "How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?"
Dabra: "Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There's no doubt that I can take care of trash like that."
So, Dabura fought Gohan, comes back, and calls him a piece of trash that he can take care of. And judging from the fight itself, he has good reason to feel this way.
Dabura is able to block multiple punches from Gohan without any sign of damage whatsoever.
And then we have this;
Gohan just about dodges Dabura's attack, and then when Gohan charges in for a punch, Dabura is able to dodge it, much to Gohan's surprise. Does this not tell you anything about who's stronger? I mean, Gohan obviously put his all into that punch for him to be shocked at Dabura's ability to dodge. And it doesn't stop there. Before Gohan is even able to react, Dabura is able to create a sizeable distance between the two of them, and charge an attack to fire at Gohan. This then hits him and knocks him down.
In fact, throughout the fight, Gohan isn't able to land a singe good hit besides a kick, which Dabura shrugs off easily. There is no visible damage on Dabura's face (blood, scratches etc) and on top of this, Dabura is able to counter directly after.
So, my question to you; with all this in mind, how does one come to the conclusion that Gohan is superior to Dabura?
Also, if Gohan truly is stronger according to you, why isn't he able to prove it in this fight?
I'll leave it at that for now.
|+ Yusuke||Jul 18 2014, 03:56 AM Post #5|
Well, let me start off my opening post by answering the question you asked at the end of your post.
Below are some of the scans that will prove my point of MSSJ Gohan being superior to Dabura.
We can clearly see here that Gohan was blasted full-force by Dabura's blast and yet he wasn't even damaged at the slightest. Not to mention that Dabur's attack was a surprise attack that clearly caught Gohan off guard and yet he's still undamaged albeit his torn clothes. His battle condition shows that he's no different from before he got blasted.
Of course, that's just one example of Gohan not taking any damage against Dabura.
In this scan above, Dabura is pretty much resorting to using the spit against Gohan in which Gohan is quick to remove his glove. This, in turn provides Dabura a clear, cut opening to strike Gohan off-guard while he's preoccupied with preventing his spit from working.
Even after having him pretty much off-guard and with very little reaction time, Gohan is able to foil Dabura's surprise attack and even breaks his sword in half which visibly frustrates Dabura as evident with his facial expression in the bottom scan. Theirs even a part after that fight where Babidi is angry at Dabura for not causing a lot of damage against Gohan. In a nutshell, nothing Dabura is using against Gohan is doing anything worthwhile.
Now, on to the quotes you provided...
Gohan not "completely losing" could be simply attributed to the fact that his stamina is being worn out pretty fast. That's one thing Dabura has over Gohan.
Spoiler: click to toggle
As shown in this scan, Dabura seems to be a little worn out while Gohan seems to be out of it a bit. Had the fight gone out even longer, this could have been Gohan's downfall in the fight.
On your point of Dabura being confident of being stronger than MSSJ Gohan.
This can be simply attributed to the fact that Dabura is his own biggest fan. He thinks he's the strongest fighter out there and that no one is able to beat him.
Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P12.3-4
Context: after Dabra says he'll fight on Stage 3
Babidi: "Da-Dabra...if yo-you get done in, i'll be finished...Do you have a chance of winning?..."
Dabra: "A chance of winning?...Fuffuffuh...I'm Dabra, king of the Demon Realm...There doesn't exist anyone in the entire world who exceeds my power..."
Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P2.4
Context: as he confronts Goku and co.
Dabra: "...It's quite impressive that you humans managed to defeat Yakon and come as far as Stage 3. I could even call it miraculous...However, this will be as far as you go. You've got me as an opponent now..."
Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P3.1-2
Vegeta: "Hmph...Seems Babidi is really panicking, if you, his #1 man are already making your appearance..."
Dabra: "Hmph...Let's end the pointless blather there and have all of you come at me, at once."
What we've got here is 3 separate instances of Dabura being cocky and thinking of himself as superior to everyone. Hell, he even insists in the last quote that all 3 Saiyans come at him. That pretty much seals the deal for me that he says things out of pure arrogance. Like I said before, Dabura is his own biggest fan.
And if these quotes aren't enough to disprove Dabura's reliability, maybe the fight itself should make this more clear.
- Dabura blocks a few punches from Gohan.
- Gohan smacks Dabura a pretty far distance.
- Dabura uses a mouth blast in which Gohan dodges
- Dabura dodges a punch from Gohan
- Dabura gets Gohan off guard with a surprise ki blast, which I explained before did nothing to Gohan except ruin his clothes.
- Dabura uses his spit which hinders Gohan for a moment as he tries to remove his glove, providing an opening for Dabura to attack Gohan.
- Dabura attempts to quite literally slice Gohan in half with his sword in which Gohan surprises Dabura by not only stopping his attack, but breaking his sword as well which visibly frustrates Dabura, evident by his facial expression.
- The fight ends after Dabura takes notice of Vegeta's anger and the whole Majin Vegeta sequence happens.
Based on that, how can you say Dabura got any offense at all against Gohan? The only worthwhile feats Dabura did in this fight was block a few punches from Gohan and dodge some of his blows. Other than that, he had no impressive feats in the fight. Gohan on the other hand, got a punch early on in the fight, took no damage from Dabura's blast, and broke Dabura's sword right in front of him.
So based on all that, my question for you is just what exactly does Dabura have going for him in terms of having offense?
That about does it for my opening post.
|Kienzan||Jul 18 2014, 07:48 PM Post #6|
Alright, gonna jump straight into addressing these counters.
A surprise attack that caught Gohan off guard, eh? If you payed attention to my opening post, you'd realise that it wasn't a surprise attack at all, and the only reason Dabura was able to catch Gohan 'off-guard' is because he dodged Gohan's punch and created enough of a distance between them to fire the blast, all in the amount of time it took Gohan to realise what's about to happen to him. And that's evidenced by the events prior to the scan you posted (see my first post for this), and also by the panel with Gohan shocked at Dabura.
As for your point about Gohan being undamaged, let's be honest here. Dabura didn't fire a charged attack or anything, did he? In fact, he only had the amount of time it took Gohan to react, whicb is obviously very quick. It was just a short ki blast, nothing more, and such an unprepared attack was able to knock Gohan down (which is pretty much more than can be said for anything Gohan does).
"Resorting" to the spit? What evidence do you have that Dabura uses the spit as a resort? We saw him use it once before, and that was against Krillin and Piccolo. Did you base this idea of the spig being a resort off of this instance? Or did you simply just make an assumption that suited your argument?
And while we're on the topic of the spit, lets take a moment to thjnk about what would have happened had Gohan not had that glove on. Or if Kaioshin hadn't warned Gohan right before it happened.
Need I say anymore? The spit in itself has proven to be a formidable attack, what with Gohan not being able to dodge and obviously its ability to end a fight in a split second.
And as you said, even if the spit is unsuccessful, it can be a major distraction to the guy on the recieving end which could also be a game changer.
Alright, gonna tackle this part in a few different stages.
"Visibly frustrates Dabura"? I don't see this. Unless you're talking about the panels where Dabura is putting in effort to overcome Gohan's grip on the sword. But wait, isn't his facial expression in these panels due to Dabura putting in effort to try and overcome Gohan's grip on the sword?
And if you wanna play the facial expression card, just observe Gohan's face throughout this fight and you'll realise your probably best off not going there.
And if I had a pound for every time you've said Gohan's been caught off guard in this post, I'd be a pretty rich man. What does this have to say about the capabilities of the fighters involved? I'll leave that up to you to figure out.
"Not doing anything worthwhile"? Yeah, I guess your right, nearly turning your opponent to stone is nothing big really.
Gohan is the one that really does nothing worthwhile throughout the fight.
I'd agree with you here if it weren't for a couple of things. Firstly, Dabura's quote was made after the fight against Gohan whereas this overconfidence is before Dabura fights. For obvious reasons, that changes things.
Dabura's overconfidence is justified, aswell, since he is literally under the impression that he is the strongest being alive, and Kaioshin seems to feel similar too;
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P3.2-4
Goku: “Is he amazing?...”
Kaioshin: “Of course…He’s the king of the Dark Demon Realm, after all…One of you people is probably the #1 in this world, but in the other world, the world of demons, Dabra is absolutely on top…”
Kuririn: “Th-the king of the Demon Realm, you say?...There’s a world like that?...S-so he’s probably an incredibly dangerous opponent, right…!?”
Alright, since all you have left of that post is the (pretty biased, lmao) retelling of events, I think I'll leave it there. Since I believe I've countered your points, I won't add anything big to my argument just yet. I will leave you with this though;
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: "Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that..."
Kaioshin: "...Is-is that true, Son Goku?..."
Goku: "Yeah...Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but...7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’...[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him...
Since Gohan is stated to be a lot weaker than his Cell games self, and Dabura is called as strong as Cell, what does this have to say about the strength of current Gohan in comparison to Dabura?
|+ Yusuke||Jul 19 2014, 06:21 AM Post #7|
It wasn't a surprise attack but it was an attack that Gohan had little to no time to see and brace himself to fend against. He has no time to defend himself and Dabura gets a clear, cut hit on him which if he did have a significant lead on him, would have had to damage him considerably considering he has no time to defend himself. Dabura being able to create a sizeable distance between the two is due to Dabura using the afterimage technique to make the distance and strike Gohan with the blast...which in turn does nothing but ruin his clothes.
Gohan already saw the spit used before used on Krillin and Piccolo. He knows how lethal the attack can be and hence gets the glove off as soon as he could. Kaioshin is just reminding him about it.
Perhaps I used the wrong word there. I didn't mean to say he was tempted to do that but my point was he uses the spit attack on Gohan and that provides him with a clear cut chance of being able to strike him. Even after having all that time to strike him while Gohan was fending off his spit attack, Gohan still somehow manages to catch his sword after all of that which visibly upsets Dabura.
The only point I was trying to make there was that Dabura was upset after Gohan foiling his attack when he had ample time to do so. Just look at his expression below when Gohan breaks his sword, he's gritting his teeth after his attack fails.
Gohan facial expression may show fatigue (which I covered in my last post) but Dabura's expression shows that he wanted to get Gohan right there but he just couldn't get the job done. As a matter of fact, Dabura also looks to be fatigued as well though not as much as Gohan which like I said before would contribute to Goku's statement about Gohan not "completely losing".
Well, consider that...
1) Dabura uses an Afterimage to create a sizeable distance between him and Gohan.
2) Dabura uses the spit to hinder Gohan for a moment and still fails to strike him.
It would only be reasonable that Dabura would be able to get Gohan off guard given these 2 instances. And even after all of that, he can't even damage Gohan albeit ruining his clothes.
Krillin's Kienzan could have killed Nappa had the attack worked. Does Krillin > Nappa apply now?
Eh...i'm not to sure about that. Getting a punch directly to the face and being able to break Dabura's sword when he's going for the kill are some pretty good offensive feats. Dabura on the other hand, not so much...which reminds me....
You've yet to answer the above question.
Good point but how can we determine that as fact when Gohan wasn't getting damaged at all? Dabura had multiple attempts to attack Gohan and yet he can't even damage him. How is he supposed to win another fight with him if he couldn't inflict any damage previously? Obviously, their has to be something wrong with that statement if he can't initially get the job done. His quotes showing his overconfidence might have been stated at the wrong time but it goes to show how Dabura thinks of himself compared to others. Also, Kaioshin never directly compares the 3 Saiyans to Dabura and only states Dabura is the strongest in his world VS the Saiyans being the strongest in their world.
1) Gohan was never stated to be "a lot weaker" than his Cell Games self. Where did you get such idea from?
Chapter: 423 (DBZ 229), P4.1
Vegeta: "Your body's gotten rusty. No matter how peaceful it may be, you should still train just in case."
Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: "Gohan, it"s your turn next, but have you trained properly?"
Vegeta: "Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn't do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now...Though I suppose there's no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy..."
Kaioshin: "S-so that's why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily..."
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: "Magic, huh? [Dabra]'s way stronger than I thought, ain't he?"
Vegeta: "Hmph...Even so, he's not an opponent [he? we?] can't win against. [Gohan]'s so pathetic...So much so that he was stronger as a brat..."
Goku: "He really did slack off!"
All of these quotes would suggest that he lost some power but there's nothing to suggest he lost a lot of power as you mentioned in your post.
2) Dabura being called "as strong" as Cell is a very vague term considering how many forms of Cell their are. What Celll are we even supposed to use as the measuring stick here? Sorry but i'm a bit baffled here.
Anyways, that will about do it for my second post.
|Kienzan||Jul 19 2014, 11:29 AM Post #8|
Pretty much everything in this post will amount to a big counter at the end which I think will end your argument so far, so please bare with me throughout this post.
Alright, take a look at this. Hopefully this will change your mind.
Look at Dabura in that bottom left panel. He's smiling at the fact that Gohan gets up from that blast.
Now come on, does it really look to you like Dabura was trying to damage Gohan here? Don't you think Dabura would be a tad less, well, smiley if he realised that his attack that was intended to damage or kill Gohan didn't do much? I don't think he was trying to do any such thing with that attack at all. I'll come back to this later, and when I do, it will hopefully put an end to most of your argument if all goes well.
As for my initial point in terms of this attack, just the fact that Dabura announces his presence from such a distance and Gohan is unable to dodge shows there is a difference between the two.
So you've decided to dump the 'resorting to the spit' idea? Good.
Now lets take a look at what really happens when the spit is used, shall we?
Alright, so Dabura turns his attention toward Vegeta, as Gohan is charging at him. This is when he notices that he has found a more efficient way to reach his objective (which I will come to later as well, bare with me), and is done with Gohan. Once Gohan ceases to have a purpose, Dabura decides it's time to get this over with, and obviously the easiest way to do this for Dabura is to use his magic and spit at Gohan.
You know what, I'm not even going to counter this, as it seems that your viewpoint on this page of the manga supports what I'm going to say later on.
Covered this at the beginning of my post, and will do so more at the end.
Alright, I think I've done enough in terms of countering, since I think that what I'm about to tell you now encompasses all of your post, including the things I have left unaddressed so far.
You seem to be forgetting one thing about this entire fight.
What was Dabura and Babidi's primary objective? Do you agree that it was to gain enough energy to free Majin Buu?
Now, lets take a look at this in context to your argument.
You said to me earlier on that the fact that Dabura's blast didn't have a substantial affect on Gohan proved that Gohan had the upper hand, right?
Well, It was in Dabura's best interests to keep the fight going as long as possible. Dabura had found before him an excellent source of energy that didn't seem to be able to overpower him.
Do you think he is really going to waste that all that energy by killing or incapacitating his opponent? Of course not, since the fitter Gohan is, the more energy he has to give out for Buu and Babidi.
This is the reason why Dabura's blast didn't damage Gohan so much, and why Dabura had the smirk on his face when Gohan rose again.
And then you moved on in your argument to tell me that the fact that Dabura didn't succeed in his attempt to slash and kill Gohan despite his opening shows that Gohan had the upper hand.
I agree with you on one thing, and disagree on the other.
I agree with the fact that Dabura was attempting to put Gohan down in this attack, but I disagree with the part where you said Dabura caught Gohan off guard. On the contrary, in fact, I believe Gohan had ample time to react, along with a couple other reasons as to why Dabura may not have been successful.
It wasn't until Gohan took his glove off, threw it away and it hit the ground that Dabura commenced his attack. Does this not sound enough time for you? Perhaps if Dabura was slightly quicker to attack (say for instance, if he approached Gohan as the glove was coming off) Gohan would have been dead there and then.
On top of this, Dabura had turned his attentions to Vegeta to find out if his predictions were correct. Also, Dabura needed to find an escape where none of the other fighters could stop him.
Now, here is an overview of this fight.
1) Dabura comes out to fight, his opponent is Gohan.
2) Dabura creates openings for himself in this fight (which you yourself have admitted), and attacks Gohan in such a way that it won't kill or incapacitate Gohan (Again, you're the one that was bringing this up in your argument). Evidenced by the way Dabura smirks when his attack seems to be unsuccessful. In other words, Dabura drags out this fight.
3) Dabura finds a better source of energy in Vegeta (See scan I posted earlier), and realises he doesn't need to drag on the fight any longer. He immediately goes on the offensive with his spit and the sword attack, meaning he doesn't care whether Gohan is alive or dead after this.
4) When Gohan breaks the sword, Babidi realises Dabura's intentions and changes the setting as a distraction for Gohan and the others so that Dabura can return and the plan can commence. Basically, Gohan isn't worth a s*** any more to anybody, because they now have Vegeta and eventually Majin Buu.
5) Dabura escapes and informs Babidi, and then tells him that if they were to fight, he would win.
So, your argument was basically that Dabura wasn't able to put Gohan down even though Dabura got the chance, right? For instance, with his flame breath attack and that ki blast he shot from a distance? Well, I think this was all intentional, and it all fits in.
Now, just for the sake of not leaving anything hanging, I'm going to cover some of your other counters now.
You missed my point. I wasn't saying that Dabura's spit could have killed Gohan, therefore Dabura > Gohan. I was saying that, if the fight dragged on, the spit could have been used again and this time successfully, which would have ended it there and then. We can't just ignore Dabura's magic capabilities.
Covered this above. He can in fact get the job done, its just that he is better off not doing so.
1) Gohan being called pathetic, whereas in the Cell Games Vegeta didn't feel this way at all.
2) Gohan's training sessions with Goten.
I'd say Cell @Goku. I can elaborate if you want, but I'd rather see what you have to say about the rest of my post first.
Edited by Kienzan, Jul 19 2014, 11:30 AM.
|+ Yusuke||Jul 19 2014, 06:56 PM Post #9|
Well, let me start off this post by clarifying something that you might have misunderstood...
I never dumped it because it was never my intention to use it. I told you before it was a simple mistake using that word on my part. On to the arguments...
Really? I find that kind of odd seeing that Dabura would want to stretch out the fight and cause damage to speed up Buu's resurrection when he can't even damage Gohan in the slightest. I'll give you credit about Dabura's facial expression but what's the point of using the attack to damage him when he's not going to get damaged at all? After all, their primary purpose as you stated was to speed up Buu's resurrection but what good is that when he's not doing any damage? If you were to argue Dabura was going to hold back in his blast, you would also have to argue that he was only testing Gohan's abilities because why would he use an attack that's not even going to damage the guy in the first place? Really defeats the purpose of having the fight take place, don't you think?
What I bolded in that sentence is conjecture. We don't know if that would happen because it didn't take place. Maybe you outta use less conjecture here, would be better for the debate.
Anyways, Gohan was preoccupied with getting his glove off. By the time he see's Dabura, Dabura is already half way up and preparing to get his sword to unleash his attack on Gohan hence Gohan's facial expression. Also, I don't think Gohan knew about Dabura's sword up until then hence him being shocked.
But lets just assume for one second that your right and that Gohan wasn't distracted when preparing for Dabura's attack. What does that say about Gohan VS Dabura's strength? Obviously, Dabura putting full force into that attack and Gohan foiling it right after would have to mean something....no? Not to mention this is a rusty Gohan that hasn't had a serious bout since he fought Cell.
Don't know why you brought up Vegeta there given he doesn't come into play after Dabura does the spit attack and the sword attack.
I find that these 2 statements by you contradict each other. At one point, your saying that Dabura has no purpose with Gohan and is best to dispose of him and in the other, your saying it's better if he doesn't. I think you should be a bit more consistent here. But i'm going to take your word for it and assume your saying Dabura is going for the kill now.
Don't you find it odd that even after dismissing Gohan, he still can't get the job done with his spit attack and using his sword against Gohan? Yeah, that doesn't add up. If Dabura was truly superior to Gohan and wanted to dispose of him so he can get on with his objective, theirs no reason why he shouldn't have kept that fight going any longer considering he had two attempts to have the fight in his hands and that he lost interest in him. Obviously, all of that can't add up if he's shown to not be able to put away Gohan when he has the chance.
2) Read my earlier portion of my post. Why would he do that if he wasn't even going to damage Gohan?
3 & 4 & 5) Likewise, Read the above paragraph. Dabura going for the kill, not being able to do so, then saying he could have beaten Gohan doesn't add up. When you take that all into consideration, it just doesn't work out.
I'm just wanting to know how this is all supposed to be intentional when Dabura isn't even damaging Gohan. What's the whole purpose of the fight when he's not damaging Gohan? That's literally the reason why the whole Babidi fights take place, to speed up Buu's resurrection by causing a lot of damage. If he can't do that, the whole purpose of the fight is lost.
But this is really the same concept as Krillin VS Nappa. Krillin's Kienzan could have gotten the job done on Nappa and killed him on the spot. The only thing is, after that instance, Nappa knows to avoid that attack in the future, rendering it useless in the battle.
The same concept applies for this fight to. Dabura uses the spit initially only for Gohan to fend it off. Don't you think he would be more wary of a second attempt by Dabura? Obviously, now that he knows about the attack's capabilities, it's going to be a lot harder to execute the attack again let alone for it to work.
Those 2 instances are examples of fresh, bonafide conjecture.
1) Vegeta was far away from Gohan in terms of power in the CG Saga. Obviously, he's not going to think of Gohan as trash.
2) How does Goten sparring with Gohan show that Gohan lost a lot of power?
Yeah, your going to need something a lot more concrete than that.
So were supposed to randomly pick which Cell he was talking about? And I read your other half of your post but it's still conjecture given your looking to compare Gohan to Dabura using a form of Cell that was never specified in the Manga.
That will about do it for now.
|Kienzan||Jul 19 2014, 07:54 PM Post #10|
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you're asking me why he fired the ki blast if he didn't want to hurt Gohan much, right?
The answer is simple.
Dabura doesn't want to incapacitate or kill Gohan, because then he wouldn't expend any energy to give to Buu. Is he allowed to hurt him? Of course he is, and given Dabura's nature (thinking he is superior to everyone for instance, evidenced by the quotes you provided earlier) it's likely that he would want to do this. Also, showing his ability to overpower Gohan forces him to use more power to kill Dabura, and therefore more is given to Buu.
Its also quite possible that Dabura's ki goes towards Buu as well, considering Babidi's attitude towards Goku and Majin Vegeta's fight.
Hence the phrase "perhaps if...", man. It was a hypothetical situation.
Gohan doesn't push the sword back or anything, does he? It's not as though he overpowered Dabura, he simply snapped the metal of the sword which isn't much of a feat at all to be honest.
As for the bolded part, if you didn't understand this much, you really didn't understand my argument properly at all.
This is the moment that Dabura notices the dark side of Vegeta and turns his attentions to him. And it's before the spit and sword.
...You didn't really understand anything, did you?
Dabura drags out the fight with Gohan so that he can keep getting energy off him to free Buu.
Dabura then realises there is a dark side to Vegeta, and exploiting this would be a better way to gain energy for Buu.
Dabura then goes for lethal attacks to dispose of Gohan, because he doesn't have any purpose for him any more.
And there is one reason why Dabura may not want to straight up kill Gohan and rather incapacitate him. What do you think Goku, Vegeta and Kaioshin would do if Dabura killed Gohan there?
Covered all this.
I thought you'd have figured out this much for yourself.
1) Gohan is pathetic according to Vegeta. However, Buu Saga Vegeta didn't have anything like this to say about CG Gohan (Who he in fact compliments).
2) Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.2-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Goten: “But you really are amazing, big brother! I couldn’t even hit you once.”
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”
Gohan is afraid he'll be outstripped by Goten and Trunks. Doesn't this say it all? And then there's the stone throwing scene, where SSJ Gohan finds it semi difficult to dodge base Goten's throws. Granted, Gohan being shocked at Goten's strength could partially have hindered him, but it doesn't excuse it at all.
Not that it's important, since its not a part of my main argument at all, and neither is the Cell stuff.
So I assume Gohan got something in his eye the first times the spit was used against Krillin, Piccolo and Kibito, right?
I asked you if you want me to elaborate. Do you know what that means? It means I'm not just picking a random form of Cell. I have an explanation in mind, and if you want to hear it, then let me know.
And please, make an effort to at least try and understand what I'm saying before you label everything conjecture. If there is something you don't really understand, don't hesitate to consult me on a post or via PM, but don't automatically assume everything is conjecture.
|+ Yusuke||Jul 20 2014, 06:20 AM Post #11|
So it's likely that Dabura's going to hurt him but not incapacitate/kill him at this point of time? Fair enough.
But why isn't Dabura hurting Gohan if it's likely that he would want to do it? Your arguing that Dabura was going to hurt Gohan when he in fact didn't as evident by Gohan not even taking damage from Dabura's blast.
Also, Dabura never overpowers Gohan at any point of the fight.
So this is the part your arguing that Dabura says enough is enough and wants to get rid of Gohan? Fair enough...but what happens after all that? Does he even succeed in doing what he planned to do?
Yeah, still curious why Dabura's using lethal moves to dispose Gohan when he can't even get the job done initially.
Doesn't really matter if he overpowered Dabura or not. Dabura had full intentions to dispose of Gohan right there and then and yet his plot gets foiled not to mention he's visablly frustrated when his sword attack fails. If he didn't expect the sword attack to kill Gohan, he wouldn't have that look of anger on his face.
Do you think it would make any difference if he killed him or incapacitate him? Both of those options would provoke Goku, Vegeta, and Kaioshin to attack him.
Tell me, after seeing the attack close up and almost being a victim of the spit, do you really think he's going to fall for his attack again? Whether or not he forgot about the instance outside the ship, he's not going to think to himself "Hey, that attack looks really familiar!" and fall for it again.
That's because he was weaker than CG Gohan in the Cell Saga. Obviously, he's not going to trash talk someone stronger than him. As for the Buu Saga, Pre-Majin Vegeta can still rival CG Gohan and be a decent amount stronger than Buu Saga Gohan.
1) Does Goten being poised to surpass Gohan soon necessitate Gohan being weak?
2) Are we to assume Base Goten ~ SSJ Gohan since, according to you he's having troubles dodging Base Goten's throws? Not to sure if I want to believe that.
We covered this in our PM.
That'll be it for now...
|Kienzan||Jul 21 2014, 09:50 PM Post #12|
Prove to me that Gohan felt no pain. If you can do this, I'll concede.
Otherwise, you can't argue that what Dabura was doing wasn't hurting Gohan.
More than hurting him though, I think the bigger objective at that point was to provoke Gohan, so that more power could be given to Buu. These provocative attacks that put Gohan down was what I meant by overpower, sorry if that caused confusion.
Nah, he doesn't, but if it weren't for very fortunate clothing and Kaioshin's warnings he would have. Plus, we didn't get to see much of Dabura on full offensive here, did we?
I thought you understood this now. Dabura was dragging out his fighg with Gohan so that he can absorb as much energy for Buu has he can from Gohan, then he realises that posessing Vegeta will get the job of supplying power for Buu done quicker, so he loses his incentive to dragging out his fight with Gohan.
Get the picture?
Firstly, its completely possible that he falls for it again, considering how he did after seeing it used in front of him 3 times outside the ship and yet still almost getting caught by it.
Secondly, its not all a matter of falling for it. It could just be that Dabura gets close enough that Gohan can't dodge, and then its over.
But if CG Ssj2 Gohan wasn't up there even by Buu Arc standards, Vegeta wouldn't call Buu arc Gohan trash and compare him to his CG self in the same sentence.
Nah, I disagree. If Dabura just got gohan on the floor in such a way that it would take a while for Gohan to get back up, I'm willing to wager that Goku would wang Gohan to continue fighting.
Especially since before the fight, Goku told Gohan to get angry and that no one could stop him if he does.
This happens in the Cell Games a couple times atleast, where Piccolo asks that everyone intervene and Goku refuses, despite the bad shape Gohan is in.
No, but Gohan being genuinely worried about this indicates a decent gap between teen and kid Gohan, no? Unless you have the kids at extremely high levels.
Nope, not at all, I'm just saying that Gohan having trouble does make a difference.
Not that if matters, its not a part of my main argument anyway.
Edited by Kienzan, Jul 21 2014, 09:52 PM.
|+ Yusuke||Jul 22 2014, 06:19 AM Post #13|
Gohan gets blasted down full force, rises back up, and shows no signs of damage albeit his clothes getting torn.
So your arguing that Dabura was just provoking Gohan with his blasts and not giving it his all?
Yeah, I know what your arguing. Your arguing that...
1) Dabura wants to drag out his fight with Gohan
2) Dabura plans to posses Vegeta
3) Dabura has no reason to continue his fight with Gohan
Even after having no reason to continue his fight with Gohan and deciding to dispose of him, he's still unable to do it. Why is that?
No but from what we see in the fight, he's not doing very well in terms of offense is he? Assuming he would have offense even after having none of it in the fight would be a rather irrational assumption no?
There's a big difference between seeing an attack on someone and seeing it against you. Gohan would have to be a complete idiot to just stand while Dabura uses his spit on him and think "Huh, doesn't this look familiar"? You would have to argue that he's totally incompetent as a fighter to a point where he can witness an attack on him and fall for it again.
That's a lot of speculation. What if Gohan used a Super KHH on Dabura and killed him on the spot? We can't speculate because that's pure opinion.
Was CG Gohan ever incapacitated by Cell anywhere in the Manga? Was he ever rendered in a condition where he couldn't move at all?
Had Dabura succeeded in incapacitating Gohan to a state where he couldn't move, do you think the rest are just going to watch Dabura beat on a Gohan that can't even move? Vegeta was already edging to get his hands on Dabura even while Gohan was fighting well against Dabura. With him lying down helpless, do you honestly think he's going to just stand there?
Dabura was going for the kill right there. There's no way he would hold back in a way that he would hold his attack back. His facial expression post-Gohan breaking his sword proves that.
Vegeta never praises CG Gohan in the Buu Arc. His praise for him was only in the CG Saga itself. All Vegeta says about Gohan is that he was stronger when he was a kid. Having something like CG Gohan >= Pre-Majin Vegeta > Buu Saga Gohan works just fine.
1) Sure, I can have Teen Gohan not to far off from Kid Gohan and have the kids rivaling Teen Gohan. Even having the kids at half Gohan's power could necessitate him being worried about them passing him up.
2) The only way you can have a valid argument through that point is if you have Base Goten at a level we he can rival SSJ Gohan. Otherwise, it's impossible to get anything from that.
|Mihawk||Jul 23 2014, 08:38 PM Post #14|
||I noticed Kienzan posting so I'm gonna update with this. This bracket has already gone over the time limit so any posts beyond this won't count towards your score.|
|Kienzan||Jul 23 2014, 09:02 PM Post #15|
Can you prove it didn't hurt though?
We only saw him attack twice after this. One was the spit, which would definitely have got him if not for the glove and to possibly a lesser extent Kaioshin, and the other was a sword attack where Gohan snapped the blade.
He only gets two instances to show his offense, one of which would certainly have ended it if not for luck and another persons aid.
I agree with the first part. The only problem is, Gohan saw it used right in front of him 3 times, and yet was unable to get used to the spit and almost died because of it. And as I already mentioned, Gohan doesn't just need to fall for it for it to succeed, Dabura could just be at close range or something
He wasn't incapacitated, but he was put down for more than enough time for Dabura to escape. If I wasn't on my phone I'd provide scans.
For instance, there was the time where Gohan was knocked into the rocks and had a load of them on top of him, and the Z fighters couldn't tell if he was alive or not. Piccolo practically begged Goku to intervene, but Goku said no.
Majin Vegeta is compared to CG SSJ2 Gohan. In the Buu Arc, Gohan is called trash by Vegeta, before the majin boost, which in itself shows a big gap between the two. Think about that gap.
This is a whole debate in itself, which I'll hladly have some other time if you want. All I'm saying now though is that Gohan should have had no trouble whatsoever with Goten if he hadn't lost much power.
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