Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Rotation Advertisements



We hope you enjoy your visit to this forum.


If you are reading this then it means you are currently browsing the forum as a guest, we donít limit any of the content posted from guests however if you join, you will have the ability to join the discussions! We are always happy to see new faces at this forum and we would like to hear your opinion, so why not register now? It doesnít take long and you can get posting right away.


Click here to Register!

If you are having difficulties validating your account please email us at admin@dbzf.co.uk


If you're already a member please log in to your account:

Username:   Password:
[Summer 2014 Budokai] Overall Style between Dragon Ball & Dragon Ball Z; Ketchup Revenge vs Father Brofist
Topic Started: Jul 16 2014, 03:04 PM (2,415 Views)
Emmeth
Member Avatar
I Yoeri

Round 1, Match 4: Ketchup Revenge vs Father Brofist

Topic: The Overall Style between Dragonball and Dragon Ball Z - Pros and Cons

Rules:

1) Only the thread's participants are allowed to post.
2) Participants will be eliminated if they don't respond within 48 hours.
3) The debate must be concluded within 1 week.
4) Everybody is expected to be civil during the tournament.

Good luck and have fun!
Edited by Emmeth, Jul 16 2014, 03:08 PM.
Posted Image
My Twitch Page
Online Profile Quote Top
 
Replies:
Ketchup Revenge
Member Avatar
"If you come with me, you'll float too..."

Father Brofist
Jul 18 2014, 08:46 PM
Reply to Ketchup on Topic #4:
"Strengths of Each Side"

I would definitely agree on the Dragon Ball aspects. There's charm in watching a battle where skill takes a huge part in the fight. I remember how well that was in the budokai's with the battles between Goku vs Muten Roshi and Goku vs Tenshinhan. It allowed us to see fights in a way that, really they should be. A test of not only power and strength, but of skill and technique.

It is also true that the humans get much more focused. The series had yet to get to the point where were blowing up planets leaving the humans still a place to stand.

Dragon ball was a point where you didn't know what would happen. In DBZ, it becomes very obvious how things are going to go. You may not know what's going to happen, but you know the heroes would win. In Dragon Ball, there was probably no way to know that Goku would actually lose in the tournament. There was no way to tell what would happen next. It definitely kept you on the end of your seat and always gave us something new and unique.

The pros of DBZ would probably lie in its now improved artwork and style, helpfully matching up to its more serious tone.

OOC: Honestly I don't got much to add really.
I honestly don't have anything to add either, so if you want to go ahead with the next topic, be my guest. :lol:
Posted Image
The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
EMIYA
Member Avatar
"I am the bone of my sword."

Well then let's get to the last topic on the list.

Topic #5
"Weakness of each side."


Dragon Ball: The issue here is that, Dragon Ball is more simplistic in nature, obviously going for gags and action and not so much for development. This is not necessarily a bad thing because as long as you get what you need done, it's fine. And to be fair once Toriyama got working on the story and developing it, it went well enough. The weaknesses of Dragon Ball probably lie in more subtle areas that we've already discussed earlier in the other topics.

Some of his character designs and anatomy have been off, such as the abs and the inability to make Goku look his actual age. Something he clearly improved on later in the series.

DBZ: By far I believe the biggest weakness is the writing here specifically in the Boo Arc. I can't say this any other way but At sucks at writing at least when it comes to this Arc. From its plotholes to its inconsistencies, it one jumbled mess and I'll be blunt its uncalled for. The thing is, writing in terms of developing your plot and characters isn't hard. It may take time buts not hard. Its not hard to take a character and change them over time. Because AT's obviously done that. Its not hard to take a plot and make it flow from A to B and how it got there.

But writing that see in DBZ (again really in the Boo Arc) is the kind of writing where you sit down, you write whatever is on your mind and you just send it in regardless of looking over it or checking it out or seeing if it makes sense. You know it makes absolute no sense that Super Boo reverted to Kid Boo and not Aku Boo. There was no build up or indication that this would happen, nothing.

I ask of you, if Southern Kaioshin or being absorbed was never mentioned, would that have changed anything? Was Big Papa S. so important to the history of Boo that you needed to include him in a panel or so? Of course not, its the filler of the manga. Pointless, unneeded and unnecessary. That writing by the seat of your pants is awful and its the kind of thing that makes bad stories what they are. The sad part of it that it seems clear he hasn't changed.

You've seen all the new information he's throwing out and its clear he didn't put any thought into it, many of which is contradicting what was said in the manga.

"Boo is not Bibidi's creation..." Was there a point to this? You know if your going make up stuff that contradicts the manga you might as well go in depth on why this is. It would give some character depth to both Boo and Bibidi perhaps. But he doesn't, he just decides Boo isn't Bibidi's creation and from the interview its almost obvious he's using a sort of God of Destruction idea on Boo.

"Bibidi isn't Babidi's father, he's actually the same person." Again...a point to this? You don't need to change what has no reason to be changed.

I can't stand bad writing especially when its so obvious like the Boo Arc. I'd be more inclined to forgive mistakes involving that which contains a lot of information and stuff and you have to keep in check constant development, but that wasn't the case here. It was simple and Toriayama screwed up royally when he's going around just writing at the edge of his seat making all these plotholes and inconsistency just to have fun with his gag manga.

Development is simple, its the the way something changes over time. Plot development, character development, all that stuff. However there's certain ways you should be able to do this and that's our simple 5 Ws.

Who is being affected?
What is being affected?
Where is it being affected?
When is it being affected?

and the most important...

Why or how is it being affected?

The person or thing in question changes over time, i when it does it makes it more interesting as long as its done right. But how does it get there? You don't drive a car from Seattle to Newyork by teleporting, you have to travel the road. You are the Noun, your objective is to go from Seattle to New York. Your development is how you got there in the first place. You drove your car through eight states or something and you expand on that until you get to your main objective without contradicting your original material.

So yeah imo, Dragon Ball may be simplistic and not great but it doesn't try to be more than it is and it doesn't make awful writing mistakes you see in later DBZ. Nobody forced Toriyama to continue Dragon Ball. As far as I know, nobody took a gun to his head and said that if he doesn't start writing now, he'll get his entire family killed. You took your own series which had ended on a good high note in the Cell Arc with most things wrapped up and the idea of Gohan finally taking over the mantle kind of in in this "next generation will take up the torch" kind of thing.

and you ruined it.

And I can't say it anymore than this without repeating myself but this was just horrible writing. Vegeta's suddenly personality disorder going from good to bad to good again. The forced gag scenes in what are pretty serious moments. The unnecessary filler like Boo absorbing Kaioshin. The huge amounts of inconsistencies like Gohan not using SSj2, Kaioshin's apparently lack of sensing despite the fact that he can. And whole bunch of other things because of writing easily puts a lot of negativity on DBZ.

Dragon Ball might be simplier but I'd rather have a simple but correctly written story then a horribly written complex one.
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 20 2014, 05:09 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
Ketchup Revenge
Member Avatar
"If you come with me, you'll float too..."

Response to Father Brofist on Topic #5:
"Weaknesses of Each Side"


DRAGON BALL:
I really don't disagree with anything you said on this. However, something that I will also add is that the simplicity of the characters makes them difficult to relate to. The few of whom general people can relate to may be Yamcha and Tenshinhan. The story itself is not deep, this is why it's not hailed with the same acclaim as other anime series.

However, I will also go as far to say that this applies to both DB and DBZ.

DRAGON BALL Z:
The complexity of the writing did indeed improve from Dragon Ball, but with any more complex machine, this also gives the potential of more stuff to break. This of course is a reference to the plot holes in the series; particularly that took root during volumes 17-42.

For the most part, DBZ is better than DB for the simple fact of the complexity of the writing and the characters increased.
The Plot induced power ups was a pretty big issue as well, particularly when Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans with no notable fights or intense bouts of training, and with no logical reason other than they were the kids of strong characters so they "had to be strong enough to be relevant to the story".

However, this "child favoritism" sort of started in volume 17 with Gohan. He was strong for no reason as well, considering that unlike Goten and Trunks, he had no martial arts training at all when we first meet him.

I agree with your points about Toriyama's "revisited" version of the story. For example, Boo always existing when he's constantly referenced as "Bibidi's creation" in the manga.

In some ways, I guess you could consider the possibility of Bibidi and Bobbidi being the same being (similar to Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr.) but no indication was ever made of this in the manga series during its run. We we're pretty much given the distinct impression that they were two different people.

This is why my personal rule of thumb is to use everything pertaining to the manga (that is not in the actual manga) as supplementary. In other words, Toriyama can say whatever he wants about the manga now; but if it's not evidenced by what was originally in the series during its original run, then it's just him stating possibilities, not facts.
However, this rule of mine is a personal one, and not everyone agrees with this reasoning. I don't have a problem with this, and this is what makes the fandom interesting. The points in the series are so vague or contradictory that not everyone agrees on certain conclusions.
Posted Image
The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
EMIYA
Member Avatar
"I am the bone of my sword."

Response to Ketchup on Topic #5:
"Weaknesses of Each Side"


I'm not sure if there's anything to add for the Dragon Ball section so I'[ll respond to the DBZ section. I would agree that the writing did become complex and as you said this would amount to more problems being potentially created.

Quote:
 
I agree with your points about Toriyama's "revisited" version of the story. For example, Boo always existing when he's constantly referenced as "Bibidi's creation" in the manga.

In some ways, I guess you could consider the possibility of Bibidi and Bobbidi being the same being (similar to Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr.) but no indication was ever made of this in the manga series during its run. We we're pretty much given the distinct impression that they were two different people.


One issue I have with this particular moment is the fact that Babidi himself refers to Bibidi as his father. And as you said we were never given the distinction that these guys were the same. With Piccolo Junior, he is both represented as not only a child of Piccolo Daimao but also as a copy or doppelganger as well. Babidi and Bibidi were entirely different people and they were built up as such. Bibidi created Boo (or not as AT thinks) and now Babidi wants to avenge his father and find Boo and do all sorts of stuff. There's just so many things wrong with it.


Quote:
 
This is why my personal rule of thumb is to use everything pertaining to the manga (that is not in the actual manga) as supplementary. In other words, Toriyama can say whatever he wants about the manga now; but if it's not evidenced by what was originally in the series during its original run, then it's just him stating possibilities, not facts.
However, this rule of mine is a personal one, and not everyone agrees with this reasoning. I don't have a problem with this, and this is what makes the fandom interesting. The points in the series are so vague or contradictory that not everyone agrees on certain conclusions.


Agreed, I can't take much of the new information Toriyama brings because to me, its clear he's not thinking it through and the worst part of it, he has no reason for it. He's no longer bound by the weekly serialization of his series. He no longer has to rush the pages to the editors. Nothing is stopping him from actually taking his time to flesh out his story. This is my whole point on development. He's going from point A to point B without telling how we go there in the first place.

That's all I really have to say on the manner and this will be my last post. You'll have the last post if you so need it.

Good Debate Ketchup I had fun.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
Ketchup Revenge
Member Avatar
"If you come with me, you'll float too..."

Wasn't much of a debate to be honest. We agreed on almost all points, and simply seemed like more of a brainstorming session :lol:
Posted Image
The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
EMIYA
Member Avatar
"I am the bone of my sword."

Lol, probably. So I assume were good then?
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
Ketchup Revenge
Member Avatar
"If you come with me, you'll float too..."

Father Brofist
Jul 22 2014, 01:04 AM
Lol, probably. So I assume were good then?
I'm good. I don't really have anymore to add to the discussion.
Posted Image
The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
Mihawk
Member Avatar


Sit tight guys. We're having technical difficulties judging this one. Things are a bit too neck to neck to come to an actual conclusion. As it stands the only two available judges are giving the same scores to each debater.

Posted Image

Offline Profile Quote Top
 
Mihawk
Member Avatar


TConnor_Demonic
 
First off I would like to congratulate the both of you for Making going through this extremely hard for me with your debating styles and how well presented this was

Brofist: 8.5

Ketchup: 8.5

I honestly couldn't give the advantage to either one of you, not because you guys are bad but because it was so hard to find any glaring weaknesses that it would've resulted in small petty things like "Brofist misspelled this" or "Ketchup misspelled that" and I'd like to think with as few grammatical errors that were present in walls of text that they tend to happen.

Pros for both: Insane consistency on length of post and detail, highlighting what I feel were very good points and being capable of not having this turn into a s*** slinging contest. It's commendable given the general way debates like these tend to end up in other places. I feel that the stay wasn't unwelcome, I didn't feel as though I was droning through (except trying to go back and attempting to nitpick) the entire time reading through your debate, it was engaging and very fun to read. I love that you two didn't stray away or make your points everywhere and wish washey, they were very well placed and didn't become disorganized.

Cons for both: The lack of showing source material, although that's fairly minor considering the instances you were alluding to were well written and I could understand perfectly what you two were referring to, even an outsider would likely be able to pick up on what was being put down in this debate.


Itachi
 
Brofist: 9.5
Ketchup: 9.5

I read this monster about 5 times and couldn't come to a conclusion. I had Brofist winning sometimes, and Ketchup on other rereads. You guys were really even.

Brofist
Pros: Organized, well thought out, near perfect execution. Masterful in criticizing Toriyama.
Cons: Possibly a bit too lengthy at times? It's hard to find cons here apart from the entire debate not really being a debate.

Ketchup:
Pros: A bit less organized, but still very convincing and skillful as a debater. Didn't try to play devil's advocate for extra points.
Cons: Not really cons, just the fact that it was hard to judge based on so many agreements.


Havoc_Wreaker
 
alrighty it was hard to do this cause the debate wasnt much of one, but here

Brofist: 6
Ketchup Revenge:6.2

General note: was hard to judge something that was not much of a debate,
also when comparing art styles, no one thought to actually post pictures and compare them
that would have helped one side or the other a lot.

Brofist:

Pros:some good counter arguments, nice point about AT's editors, good dissection of the buu arc
Cons: no scans provided, too much agreeing, too hung up on the buu saga

Ketchup Revenge:

Pros: usage of outside information,ex art covers and daiz, knowledge of witting and drawing at the time was exceptional, vegeta and piccolo counter was good
Cons: no scans provided, too much agreeing, could have explain why buu arc was AT ''gold'' better


Ketchup Grand Total: 24.2
Brofist Grand Total: 24

I have to congratulate both of you for putting up such a fierce fight to the point a judge actually dropped out. Good job Ketchup for making it out by the skin of your teeth.

Posted Image

Offline Profile Quote Top
 
EMIYA
Member Avatar
"I am the bone of my sword."

Congratulations Ketchup, you done good.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
+ Havoc_Wreaker
Member Avatar
Princess_Havoc

i might have been a bit harsh
but just irked me there was no scans and stuff and was less of a debate
maybe 7 and 7.2 would be more appropriate and dammit itachi
putting pressure on me to decide a winner, sigh
great debate guys, was fun reading it all and learned a few things even
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
Ketchup Revenge
Member Avatar
"If you come with me, you'll float too..."

Father Brofist
Jul 23 2014, 10:45 PM
Congratulations Ketchup, you done good.
Thank you.

I look forward to seeing you in debates in the future.
Posted Image
The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you
« Previous Topic · Debate Room · Next Topic »

//