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[Summer 2014 Budokai] Overall Style between Dragon Ball & Dragon Ball Z; Ketchup Revenge vs Father Brofist
Topic Started: Jul 16 2014, 03:04 PM (2,230 Views)
+ Emmeth
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Round 1, Match 4: Ketchup Revenge vs Father Brofist

Topic: The Overall Style between Dragonball and Dragon Ball Z - Pros and Cons

Rules:

1) Only the thread's participants are allowed to post.
2) Participants will be eliminated if they don't respond within 48 hours.
3) The debate must be concluded within 1 week.
4) Everybody is expected to be civil during the tournament.

Good luck and have fun!
Edited by Emmeth, Jul 16 2014, 03:08 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

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TOPIC #1

Writing and drawing style.

I think its fair to say that as far as drawing style goes, Akira Toriyama has definitely improved on that. You would expect this, he's spent over 10 years or so on the series? We see his work go from a sort of jagged aspect in Dragon Ball to a bit of a smoother point. There's also the point where in DBZ, his art style perhaps becomes a bit more refined and is more willing to put in detail there.

Case in point, Cell has perhaps the most detailed design out of any of his characters. Likewise there's a note of seriousness in the later part of the series which may point out the seriousness or details of the work ahead. This doesn't make it necessarily better because the point of Dragon Ball was to be a gag and it probably works a lot better to have much simpler and for lack of better word, cartoony designs.

Now as for writing...we go up and down. For me, the best kind of writing is one that implements characterization and development both of the characters and the plot itself. However as long you try to get through your intended point, you're good. Dragon Ball or later installments were never intended to be deep on plot or anything but what we can say I believe is that Dragon Ball was action comedy that while serious at times wasn't supposed to make you think. It was a fun adventure that you read merely to see what kind of antics Goku and the gang would get into.

The plots were simple and the characters honestly were also simple. But this is also where the characters (despite being similar...Krillin was a jerkass, Yamucha was a jerkass, Tenshinhan was a jerkass...) all change from said jerkass to much nicer characters and allow some growth. This is good for the point of having development but it also means that the characters had a lack of depth at points. You essentially had the same scenario with some few twists in there.

Unfortunately though, this meant that most of the development of the plot and characters happened in Dragon Ball or very early Z....this left little to no time for many of the characters to develop later on except for a few and sometimes it became kind of contradictory. We all see Vegeta having some sort of mental episode going through his "I'm good I'm evil phase..." up in the Boo Arc.

But one of the real points is that Dragon Ball went from being a comedy to being a much more serious and action oriented series where the gags and comedy were more subtle. This probably happened around the King Piccolo Arc when things got a bit dark. Even Akira Toriayama IIRC remarks upon this, noting that King Piccolo was a much more serious villain and through out the series up until the Boo Arc, it took this stance. Saiyans, Freeza, Cell these were all serious parts of the series and at some points it got pretty dark.

But then it got to the Boo Arc and you know how that is. It would appear that Akira Toriayama tried to bring in the gags and comedy of Dragon Ball...which may have been fine if he didn't put it into the overall seriousness of the series. At this point, DBZ was still a fun series that was noted for quick nature fun. But it was now taken a much more serious note. This is no longer the adventures of Kid Goku who is oblivious to the world. This is the story of the adults. Had this been specifically about the kids, perhaps so.

This is where the writing hit what I think is rock bottom. You've already given your development and stuff earlier to the point where, this arc was useless as it did nothing the other arcs didn't do and in fact just made them worse. There was too much gags and comedy for a part of the series that was too serious at the time. From its contradictions in plot and writing, to the poor way it was executed I think makes the Boo Arc out of the entire series the worse of the bunch.

It was the part where Toriyama should have stopped while he was ahead, when things were wrapped up nicely before hand.
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Ketchup Revenge
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"Nyruhehehehe"

Response to Topic 1:
Writing and Drawing Style




ARTSTYLE/DRAWING:
I don't disagree with the points you made on both the writing and drawing style, however, I won't neccesarliy go as far to say that his earlier work wasn't as detailed. I'm more just going to input that the detail wasn't as consistent.
His art on machinery and animals was actually commendable in the early series, and in some ways, matches what he does in the later series.
Even though this doesn't pertain to Dragon Ball, his artwork for the covers of Dr. Slump (pre-Dragonball) were in some ways, better than what he did during early Dragon Ball and even throughout the series. The details in the mouth and clothing areas in his pre-Dragon Ball works were quite good, while he never really reached that aspect again until after Dragon Ball's serialization in Weekly Shonen Jump. This is shown particularly in several pieces of art that he did exclusively for the Dragon Ball Art Collection release (Daizenshuu 1).

Toriyama's style of art does indeed change through-out the series, and even though he never got anatomy fully correct, he did make it more accurate as the series progressed. Early on in Dragon Ball, a characters abs were drawn as one solid muscle, while starting around the Saiyan arc, he really started to get the separation of detail in. Around the Cell arc, the hair on his characters started to become more detailed. In the highlights for the cover pics, he sometimes would draw in strands on the hair itself, and not only stray ones that he'd done earlier. Super Saiyan hair also became more detailed as the series progressed from the Freeza/Jinzenogen arcs to the Boo arc (and even later).

His art design for characters went through the largest transition in the story. When we first meet Goku, he's drawn with rounded lines and basic shapes, while at the end of the Boo Arc, he's drawn with jagged and mostly straight lines. Toriyama's child characters in particular later in the series started to reflect the development stage for their actual ages. Goku when we first meet him looks much younger than 12 years old, and we get Gohan in the Cell Arc who is roughly the same age, who looks more appropriately designed for his age (10-11).

WRITING:
The writing definitely went through a massive transition as the series progressed. Dragon Ball at it's introduction was a simple knock-off of Journey to the West, featuring basic characters with basic personalities. Even though the story developed, Goku in personality doesn't really develop much past the earliest point that we see him. All of the other characters seem to grow and develop around him in personality. However, as the story progresses, it also gets more serious and slightly darker in context, so I feel that the change up in art style from "kiddie" to "more serious" suits this transition. These two aspects definitely go hand-in-hand when it comes to manga or comics, and is what makes stories successful both in sales and viewership.
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EMIYA
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Response to Ketchup on Topic #1
Writing and Drawing Style


Quote:
 
His art on machinery and animals was actually commendable in the early series, and in some ways, matches what he does in the later series.
Even though this doesn't pertain to Dragon Ball, his artwork for the covers of Dr. Slump (pre-Dragonball) were in some ways, better than what he did during early Dragon Ball and even throughout the series. The details in the mouth and clothing areas in his pre-Dragon Ball works were quite good, while he never really reached that aspect again until after Dragon Ball's serialization in Weekly Shonen Jump. This is shown particularly in several pieces of art that he did exclusively for the Dragon Ball Art Collection release (Daizenshuu 1).


I would agree to this but I think one of the things we should note is the difference between working on single bits of work like characters and cover pages and having to do entire chapters and pages. When you have a set time limit of about a week or so (if that long considering the whole business with editing and getting it serialized and all that) Toriyama may not have been able to get in that same amount of detail then as he is in his cover pages. Now a days we have all sorts of technology and is not uncommon for some mangaka's to digitally create their work or at least digitally edit it. There are weekly series that put a lot of effort and style in their work, shades and all that.

Its also true that the designs of characters especially towards the abs and muscles also changed

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
The writing definitely went through a massive transition as the series progressed. Dragon Ball at it's introduction was a simple knock-off of Journey to the West, featuring basic characters with basic personalities. Even though the story developed, Goku in personality doesn't really develop much past the earliest point that we see him. All of the other characters seem to grow and develop around him in personality. However, as the story progresses, it also gets more serious and slightly darker in context, so I feel that the change up in art style from "kiddie" to "more serious" suits this transition. These two aspects definitely go hand-in-hand when it comes to manga or comics, and is what makes stories successful both in sales and viewership.


I would agree to this. Of course it can also be said that the good parts of AT's story telling couldn't have been done without help of his editors. Though a matter of opinion I suppose, I think it can be said that No. 19 and No. 20 wouldn't have been as memorable of villains as either No. 17, 18 or Cell. And thanks to the editors stepping in line and making changes, the story and plot for DBZ definitely took a path in the right direction.

OOC: After you respond to this, that will be it for Topic #1 and we'll get to Topic #2. In such a case, In such a case I'm going to let you make the opening post for topic #2 if that's alright.
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Ketchup Revenge
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(#2) Response to Father Brofist on Topic 1:
Writing and Drawing Style


Father Brofist
Jul 16 2014, 05:21 PM
Response to Ketchup on Topic #1
Writing and Drawing Style


Quote:
 
His art on machinery and animals was actually commendable in the early series, and in some ways, matches what he does in the later series.
Even though this doesn't pertain to Dragon Ball, his artwork for the covers of Dr. Slump (pre-Dragonball) were in some ways, better than what he did during early Dragon Ball and even throughout the series. The details in the mouth and clothing areas in his pre-Dragon Ball works were quite good, while he never really reached that aspect again until after Dragon Ball's serialization in Weekly Shonen Jump. This is shown particularly in several pieces of art that he did exclusively for the Dragon Ball Art Collection release (Daizenshuu 1).


I would agree to this but I think one of the things we should note is the difference between working on single bits of work like characters and cover pages and having to do entire chapters and pages. When you have a set time limit of about a week or so (if that long considering the whole business with editing and getting it serialized and all that) Toriyama may not have been able to get in that same amount of detail then as he is in his cover pages. Now a days we have all sorts of technology and is not uncommon for some mangaka's to digitally create their work or at least digitally edit it. There are weekly series that put a lot of effort and style in their work, shades and all that.

Its also true that the designs of characters especially towards the abs and muscles also changed

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
The writing definitely went through a massive transition as the series progressed. Dragon Ball at it's introduction was a simple knock-off of Journey to the West, featuring basic characters with basic personalities. Even though the story developed, Goku in personality doesn't really develop much past the earliest point that we see him. All of the other characters seem to grow and develop around him in personality. However, as the story progresses, it also gets more serious and slightly darker in context, so I feel that the change up in art style from "kiddie" to "more serious" suits this transition. These two aspects definitely go hand-in-hand when it comes to manga or comics, and is what makes stories successful both in sales and viewership.


I would agree to this. Of course it can also be said that the good parts of AT's story telling couldn't have been done without help of his editors. Though a matter of opinion I suppose, I think it can be said that No. 19 and No. 20 wouldn't have been as memorable of villains as either No. 17, 18 or Cell. And thanks to the editors stepping in line and making changes, the story and plot for DBZ definitely took a path in the right direction.

OOC: After you respond to this, that will be it for Topic #1 and we'll get to Topic #2. In such a case, In such a case I'm going to let you make the opening post for topic #2 if that's alright.
I don't disagree with you at all on the first point you made. I myself have a digital manga software that has presets for innocuous items and backdrops, like windows and trees, things of that nature. They didn't have these back in the 1980s when Dragon Ball was made, and everything had to be hand-drawn. Toriyama also only had one assistant, while most manga-kas now have several.

As for the second point you made, I also agree with that. Some of the more memorable aspects in the series were caused by editors or a fluke. For example, the physical design of the Super Saiyan itself was created because Toriyama's assistant was taking too long to do blackfills on Goku's hair and eyes, therefore they almost missed some deadlines. By eliminating the need to do Blackfills on Goku's hair (all the time), Toriyama could then focus on doing more detail on the characters for the serialization itself. This could also explain why we see a transition in his art style particularly in the Jinzenogen arc, and later.
Some character or character trait absences can also be explained by simple laziness. Toriyama himself didn't like Chi Chi as a character and didn't like drawing her, so he simply opted to not have her appear in the series too often. This is just a theory, but I think that this also explains why he simply got rid of Saiyan tails. We see him draw Broly with a tail in early character designs, so it seems obvious that he didn't forget about them, he simply didn't want the hassle of having to draw them anymore in the serialization.


(I'll double post to open the second topic: "Characters")
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jul 16 2014, 05:41 PM.
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Topic #2:
"Characters"


The character development in the series seems to have gone through a large transition as the series progressed. Goku's friends in particular went through some large changes in the series, even though unlike other series like Naruto, their roles in the series were kept basic, and their characters were straight-forward and easy to understand. Piccolo was probably the character who went through the largest development, going from someone who wanted to kill Goku, to a father figure to Goku's son, and then a good friend of Goku's by the end of the series. Vegeta arguably could have been considered to have this same transition, but he never really seemed to want to kill Goku. Vegeta in particular seemed more interested in fighting him and defeating him.

The villans in the series also generally went through writing changes, even if the characters themselves didn't appear long enough to actually have any serious development. For example, the first truly threatening villain that we encounter was Piccolo Daimao, who wanted to rule the world and kill all the fighters who could oppose him. Piccolo Daimao himself was the first prototype for the archetypal villains that are synonymous with Dragon Ball Z. An impossibly strong villain that has to be overcome in order to save the world or protect the Dragon Balls.
The stories of the villains also seem to become more and more complex, and then you have the end of the series fiasco that was Majin Boo. Majin Boo's physical prowess was as complex as any writing with villains that was done earlier, even if the over-all mood of the plot changed. His character fit the more gaggy aspect that Toriyama shifted to, and I don't believe that I would've had it any other way at that point in time.

The support characters didn't change much, all they seem to do is get older. Chi Chi seemed to change a bit in the later series after Goku died against Cell, but she still remains the naggy type that is synonymous with her character. Bulma in particular, her loyalty understandably switches toward Vegeta and away from Goku later in the series, even though she's still a key support character for Goku later in the series.
At some points you had some characters replace others, so the general character hierarchy set-up stayed the same from a writing stand-point, even if the characters themselves were switched around. Mr. Satan seemed to replace Yajirobi as the comic relief of the series, and in my personal opinion, I actually preferred him more over Yajirobi because he supplemented a comedic break in an otherwise serious plot. Vegeta seemed to replace Krillin, and so-forth and so on. There were some characters like Piccolo and Bulma who kept their respective roles, even if their importance in the series was reduced from what it was originally.
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EMIYA
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Reply to Topic #2:
Characters


I can agree with what you've said but I also have to add in a few things a swell. While not so much complex, I think there's a point where Early Dragon Ball villains definitely had a more unique aspect to them. Where as anyone from King Piccolo to Cell was the same thing. They were as you said the archetypical villain that had to be overcome. The first few times this is used, it's fine, but when you use it constantly without making any sort of changes to the characters, it can get a bit obnoxious. What makes it worse is the fact that sometimes they're plain rip off.

Let's be honest, what's the difference between Piccolo and Vegeta? They both start out as sadistic villains, they're both aliens (though Piccolo in this case wasn't at first) They both do evil stuff and think they're hot stuff. They get defeated by Goku, want to take vengeance and fight him again. They both mellow out to the influence of another, in this case Piccolo with Gohan, Vegeta with Trunks and Bulma. They both make sacrifices, they both become respective anti-heroes and then later perhaps full on heroes. I mean all that Toriyama did with Piccolo he did the exact same thing with Vegeta.

This is a problem because you're doing the same thing over again. There's nothing new or interesting about it. It doesn't help that Vegeta got screwed the first time around because AT continued to mess around with his character going from "good" to "evil" to "good" to "evil" again like he was going bipolar.

As for Boo, he's a character who was obviously much different from King Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza or Cell in the fact that he was perhaps the first Anti-Villain we saw, something that perhaps doesn't occur until Beers years later. He was the first villain since arguably Vegeta at this point that actually went from characterization. He was a killer with a child's mind who after spending time with Satan, became a better person until plot reared its ugly head and he became another typical archetypical villain.

And while were on Mr. Satan, he does also go through some decent development. I personally enjoy his Boo Arc counterpart much more because he's obviously gone through that development and characterization that he never had before. I found his Cell Arc counterpart extremely annoying and anytime he appeared I just wanted him to shut up. In the Boo Arc, he's obviously mellowed out a bit and we can see more of his heart and good will and less of his ego that we saw before.

Back to Boo again, I probably wouldn't call him a gag character in any form though you perhaps didn't mean it as such. I would instead call him an "eccentric character" in the same way that the Ginyu Squad was a very eccentric group of villains. The difference between Boo and them and say Gotenks...oh boy him, is that the actions of Boo and the Ginyu Tokusentai's can fit both the gag side of the manga or the serious side. They're both eccentric villains but their actions aren't taken any less serious because of it.

I can't say the same thing for Gotenks, his personality and actions are obviously so fit to the comedic side of the series that instead of enhancing the scene, it deteriorates it. Super Boo, a very serious and dark villain is forced to gag around with this gag character in part of the series that is perhaps darkest so yet. You know, everyone's dead, Dende is dead, there's no hope and Gotenks is just going around gagging on comedy and here's Boo like some actor who wants to be serious but has to ad lib and be funny at the same time to fit in with Gotenks' mood.

Lastly, most the side and supporting characters unfortunately do get pushed to the side. We start it off on the Freeza Arc...gets less and less on the Cell Arc until they're just...nothing by the Boo Arc. This is usually seen as a bad thing when you push off characters that have obviously played a huge part in the series and are now reduced to the same thing as the audience, just watching the others.

This is really harmful to Piccolo because he at least came off as the guy who could keep up with the Saiyans but still got reduced to the back. And before Vegeta, it was Piccolo who was built up as Goku's rival.
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 16 2014, 10:24 PM.
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Ketchup Revenge
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Reply to Father Brofist on Topic #2:
"Characters"


I agree with a lot of your points. Particularly about Boo, and you did tend to word it better than I did. The concept of Boo himself is gaggy, but the character himself is not. We never saw another villain in the series with a kid version, and a fat friendly, childish version. Even Super Boo with his fight with Gotenks showed some gaggy moments, particularly when he was reading a book and sipping on a Shirley Temple because he'd gotten bored in the ROSAT. Also the concept of the character having the consistency of bubblegum is something that seems a tad gaggy as well. There's just something about it that doesn't make him seem so dangerous, unlike the freaky designs that were Freeza or Cell.

As for your point about Vegeta and Piccolo, I disagree on several parts. Piccolo in particular became a major "team-player" early on, and his character developed from there. His relationship with Gohan also changed his character greatly in the Freeza Arc, not to mention he becomes a mentor to Gohan, and both Goten and Trunks... and Gotenks, if you want to consider him in particular. Vegeta's motives are largely entirely selfish up until the late Boo arc, he's not a "team-player" (until the end of the series) and he doesn't really mentor anyone except Trunks, and his motives were more to make his own son stronger than Goku's. There's moments here and there where he does selfless acts, but over-all, he tends to do things for himself because of his desire for a good fight. I will agree that he does come around entirely during the final leg of the Boo Arc, particularly for everything during and after the Vegetto formation.

I agree with your points about Mr. Satan. Mr. Satan as a whole goes through massive change, from the time we first see him to the end of the series. When we first see him, he is arrogant, and convinced that he is the strongest in the world. As the series progresses, he begins to realize that he is not the strongest, and he even spends his time attempting to befriend Boo. Later on he accepts his weakness, and accepts Goku and the gang as friends.

As for support characters being pushed aside, I do agree with that. It also seems that unless the character is female, the character's significance in having children and adding to the character rooster is non-existent. Yamcha and Tenshinhan don't have kids, Oolong never finds a "miss piggy" and has kids, Yajirobi never does, etc. I can't say that I think that Krillin would've ever had kids if he hadn't gotten together with 18; who was a strong character (and female).

Everything you said about Gotenks is correct. I have no disagreements with your arguments about him.
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EMIYA
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Reply to Ketchup on Topic #2
"Characters"


Well there is obviously a few things about Piccolo and Vegeta that are different. Perhaps because Piccolo becomes more of hero early on...in the span of a single arc really, two if you infer Piccolo and King Piccolo as the same people where Vegeta was evil for one arc, a brutal Anti-Hero for two arcs and didn't become good until about the Boo Arc.

True also that Vegeta never mentored anyone but at the same time he did train and get to know his own son and obviously by the end of the Cell Arc we realize that he rally did are for him. In the same way that Piccolo was changed and felt an emotional attachment to Gohan.

As for the rest I agree.

I'll make a second post and we'll discuss topic #3 ASAP.
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 17 2014, 12:02 AM.
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Topic #3
"Plot"


Let's face it, Dragon ball both before or at end of the Boo Arc is not known for its intrinsic plot lines or development. Sometimes you do but its obvious that this was the kind of work that was done at the spur of the moment.It's an adventure series, a comedic at first then action adventure series about the...well...adventures of our heroes. It hardly ever got deep or meaningful.

I do feel this is a problem especially when the series got more serious in nature. If it had remained a comedic gag throughout I could understand. But once you've made it this far into the series and take such a shift in genre, I always feel that this where you could and should have developed your plot more. To me, there zero excuse for bad writing. Its one of the most important things to me in any sort of work, manga, comics, films, books, etc. If your plot doesn't develop along with your characters, I better be seeing a funny comedy where the point is to make me laugh.

Unfortunately plot is not AT's strong point. I won't begrudge as I said early Dragon Ball which was clearly more gag related and wasn't trying to tell a story but tell a joke. But when you get to the serious side of the series, I would expect some effort to be put in on it. Now truthfully this is mostly because of the Boo Arc and dear lord does it have issues.

This is what happens I think when you let Toriyama have the control. To be blunt, Toriayama sucks at writing. At best he's average but I think its clear that if it wasn't for the help of his editors, The series wouldn't have been nearly as memorable as it was now. He's want to focus more on his gags and comedy and less on the story that was going on.

And that's the Boo Arc for you. It's plot is easily rushed and filled to the brink with potholes and inconsistencies. Your constantly changing up stuff, adding all this unnecessary stuff like fusions and absorptions, you're messing up established character traits. You're just doing all sorts of unncessary things merely to continue your series. Which is terrible because you wrapped up things fairly nicely in the Cell Arc.

The cyborgs and Cell have been defeated.

Vegeta has changed his ways.

Piccolo once an evil monster has now accepted his other half.

Gohan has taken the mantle of his father ready to fight for the sake of his earth as his father leaves the living world.

Toriyama had everything wrapped up nicely, the world is safe, characters have changed...and then the Boo Arc came around and he took the plot, and he butchered it. He butchered it, found it's wife, shot her dead, found the children and drowned each one as slowly as he could. He basically took all that was done before, and butchered it. Gohan? Got shoved aside because he was no longer ample enough to be the hero. Vegeta? Got turned into an evil mess again just to satiate his own ego? Goten and Trunks, the younger generation to take up the mantle? No they got stuck to the side as well.

It was to say the least horrible and its the reason I hate the Boo Arc so much. This wasn't about writing a good story or developing the plot and character. This was about Toriyama doing whatever he wanted and wanting to do more gag related stuff and to me, gags and comedy are good when done right. And this unfortunately was not done right at all.
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 17 2014, 12:26 AM.
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Ketchup Revenge
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Response to Topic #3:
"Plot"


I seriously can't think of anything to counteract your arguments.
I completely agree that Toriyama is not a good writer, and that's blatantly obvious later on when (during a recent interview) he stated that he was "writing by the seat of (his) pants". Toriyama's true strength is in gag comedy, and you can tell by the simplicity of his plots that gag is what he really enjoys doing. However, being effective in gag comedy actually requires talent by itself. Not everyone can create gag comedy that is funny or entertaining. That takes a level of understanding of the general reader population that not everyone possesses. Toriyama himself is good at this, but he is not good with plots in general.

Dragon Ball's plot is contrived of randomness that is based on the events that are written previously. There is little planning in the series, this is why you have gaping plot holes like Goku destroying Cell's head, and Cell being able to recover from it (and later stating that he couldn't regenerate if his "nucleus" was destroyed, which is located in his head). This also explains a lapse in consistency with the suggested Super Saiyan boost from base. Super Saiyan in the Boo arc is clearly not the suggested 50x that it was in the Freeza arc, but then Toriyama did state that he made the Super Saiyan to look like 10x, not 50.

And to be entirely honest, we actually have to thank Toriyama for being so inconsistent with his information in the series. If he'd been entirely consistent, we wouldn't be debating the series, even 30 years after it was started.

With him not having the pressures of doing a serialization now, I think we can expect more consistency in plots from him, especially in any Dragon Ball material that continues the series.

As for your final comment about not liking the Boo Arc, everyone is entitled to their opinion; and I'm not going to entirely disagree with you, but only because my agreement with your opinion specifically pertains to the feel of the arc itself when compared to the rest of the series.
It feels disjointed when compared to almost everything before it, not in plot, but over-all writing style.

Even if the Arc itself seems disjointed from the over-all feel of the series up to that point, I think the writing itself is Toriyama Gold. It's a perfect balance between gag (what he does best), and the seriousness of the series; which was what everyone else liked best. The Boo arc seems more lax than either the Freeza or Cell arcs, and you can just feel Toriyama's comfort with the writing in this part of the series.
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Response to Ketchup on Topic #3
"Plot"


I can see what you mean with the Boo Arc but at the same I feel it just wasn't done as well. To me, Battle of Gods and Beerus is essentially what the Boo Arc and villain could've been like if it was done right. I've made the note before that Battle of Gods managed to incorporate both the light hardheartedness of Early dragon ball with the seriousness of DBZ in the way that the Boo Arc I believed couldn't.

You had a villain, dangerous and strong that was feared but he was also an anti-villain and eccentric. When the plot want being calm, funny or gag related, his eccentric personality matched with it. When things got serious, he pretty much took things serious. Beerus was still eccentric but he didn't become a fool in the times of seriousness. At least until he started spanking Gotenks which was clearly a gag and at this point I'm blaming Gotenks more on that than anything.

It may have come a point that the Freeza and Cell Arc were too serious and he needed to back away and get back to his roots. But as I saw, he did that better with the movie then he did with his current arc.

OOC: After you've responded to this post, you can start Topic #4 post too.
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 17 2014, 02:36 AM.
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Ketchup Revenge
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"Nyruhehehehe"

Second Response to Father Brofist on Topic #3:
"Plot"


I agree. Beerus would've been a good series villain, and probably would've wrapped up the series a little better considering his pre-knowledge of Goku. I think of Majin Boo as more of a prototype for Beerus, but Majin Boo himself did the job as a series villain because he was more of an opponent to the group in general, not just Goku like the Battle of Gods Movie suggests with Beerus.

If they had introduced Beerus in the series, and tweaked Beerus's intentions a bit, I can see him working out fine as a series villain; and in several ways, could be considered better than Majin Boo.

However, due to his lack of transformations and forms, that might've made his character a bit stale.
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Ketchup Revenge
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"Nyruhehehehe"

Topic #4:
"Strengths of Each Side"


The strengths of each side can be measured by the writing in particular, and since we've already established that Toriyama is not a good writer, this topic may be a little more difficult.

DRAGON BALL (pre-Saiyan Arc):
Dragon Ball at it's introduction was a parody of Journey to the West. Dragon Ball's strength in particular lies with it's ability to appeal more to general audiences because of the gag comedy and the simplicity of the story, while the later series seems more tuned toward a Shonen (male) audience. The gag comedy of Pre-Saiyan arc can be understood and enjoyed by general audiences.
Another strength that this series has is that the fights themselves are also more a showcase of skill and not over-all power, therefore it's a little more exciting to watch in context of suspense. You're not sitting there waiting for Goku to unviel a new transformation or technique, because that excitement lies with Goku's ability to improvise.

Another strength in Dragon Ball is that it's nice to be able to see the humans play a major role in defeating villains. No one had transformations, so everyone had an equal chance.


DRAGON BALL Z (Saiyan Arc and Onward):
The Saiyan arc was really the first defining moment in the series for the pumped up fights that the series would become known for, and the first time that we were able to actually get a rating on character strengths. The first time that we become exposed to the high paced ki battles was actually during the final fight of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, but the actual potential of this type of battle wasn't explored until the introduction of Raditz. Raditz's introduction and the audiences exposure to things outside Earth really pumped up the popularity of the series because the fights themselves became more destructive and to the purpose that anyone could be out there.

In Dragon Ball Z, the writing of the series also became more complex; even if it stayed simple for the most part. The villains themselves had more layers than the villains in pre-Dragon Ball Z, and the stakes became higher and higher as the series progressed. This fueled the characters to push themselves to new levels of power.

Dragon Ball Z also introduced Goku's son Gohan, who could be viewed as a possible prodigy to his father's legacy. This left hope open to fans that other characters could be more like Goku, even though we find out that Gohan is quite different than Goku.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Reply to Ketchup on Topic #4:
"Strengths of Each Side"

I would definitely agree on the Dragon Ball aspects. There's charm in watching a battle where skill takes a huge part in the fight. I remember how well that was in the budokai's with the battles between Goku vs Muten Roshi and Goku vs Tenshinhan. It allowed us to see fights in a way that, really they should be. A test of not only power and strength, but of skill and technique.

It is also true that the humans get much more focused. The series had yet to get to the point where were blowing up planets leaving the humans still a place to stand.

Dragon ball was a point where you didn't know what would happen. In DBZ, it becomes very obvious how things are going to go. You may not know what's going to happen, but you know the heroes would win. In Dragon Ball, there was probably no way to know that Goku would actually lose in the tournament. There was no way to tell what would happen next. It definitely kept you on the end of your seat and always gave us something new and unique.

The pros of DBZ would probably lie in its now improved artwork and style, helpfully matching up to its more serious tone.

OOC: Honestly I don't got much to add really.
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 18 2014, 08:47 PM.
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