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Battle of Gods canon?
Topic Started: Jul 15 2014, 05:23 PM (25,855 Views)
HavocSetsIn
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Sam

This guy I'm arguing with on Facebook is insisting that Battle of Gods is absolutely not canon. It really pisses me off how just because one opinion gets a few upvotes that it's deemed as the right one when no one knows what they're talking about.

He's saying AT didn't actually write it, he only created the characters, and that he never stated that it was part of the official DBZ continuity and that was only an empty Toei statement.
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VegettoEX
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Most of that is accurate information.

The idea for the movie in and of itself was not Toriyama's: it was Toei Animation's idea. The main concepts brought to the table were "Super Saiyan God" and "God of Destruction". Yusuke Watanabe was hired as the scriptwriter for the movie, and he concocted an original draft that used those ideas and solidified them into things like Beerus being a lizard and being the one originally responsible for infecting the Saiyans with evil. Simultaneously, animation director Tadayoshi Yamamuro concocted a character design for Super Saiyan God Son Goku that was extremely muscular and had a cape.

Toriyama came in and basically re-did all of that. From what we've learned, it sounds like Toriyama re-wrote a huge deal of the script (including actual character dialog), and then we know for a fact that he drew the final designs for Whis and Beerus (and even gave Whis his name, though misunderstanding what the original pun for "Beerus" was supposed to be, and inadvertently creating another [alcohol-related] series of name puns that worked just fine).

Furthermore, no-one - ranging from Toriyama himself to anyone assocated with Shueisha or Toei - has ever actually said something like "this doesn't count" or "this never happened" in reference to any event, never mind actually use the word (or Japanese equivalent of) "canon". Ever. In anything. There are a couple one-off statements, and the one that your fellow fan is referring to was a statement made by the Battle of Gods publicity manager specifically in the original press release announcing the film, which stated:

"Toei Animation"
 
A new story in the official history of Dragon Ball is born, neither a spin-off nor a side-story, one that can be enjoyed by both children and parents, manga fans and anime fans.

Toriyama has, of course, made several statements about the movie itself (things ranging from working on it to what the final outcome was), but none of it can even remotely be classified as him saying "OMG ITZ A CANNON!" or anything like that :).

I'd be happy to provide even more (and specific) examples of these, but in the interest of posting something at least APPROACHING brief (and not showing up just to plug my own material), hopefully that covers what you're looking for!
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

There is no discernable canon. People should stop trying to classify things as such for that reason.
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SSJ
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Moved this to GT/Movies as this is not an announcement.
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What about toriyama flat out saying that battle of gods actually did happen in the original material? And that the new 2015 movie coming out has a story that he made and didn't edit like he did with battle of gods?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 15 2014, 06:50 PM.
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HavocSetsIn
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Sam

Sorry for putting this in the wrong section. Complete accident lol
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Ssj3vegito96
Jul 15 2014, 06:44 PM
What about toriyama flat out saying that battle of gods actually did happen in the original material? And that the new 2015 movie coming out has a story that he made and didn't edit like he did with battle of gods?
Anyone able to answer this?
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

There's a big difference between something that's canon or non canon and something that's stupid. There's a lot of stupid things in the manga or Battle of Gods, stupid ideas, plotholes, inconsistencies, you name it. Things that don't make sense, this does not make them non-canon. Canon is simply the original material and any material afterwards is canon if considered to be part of the original material by said original author or authors.

If AT came out and said that Piccolo was weaker than Ginyu at the end of Z, that would be canon. It would be a horrible plothole and inconsistency mind you that made no flip of a sense, but that wouldn't make it non-canon. People I think often make the mistake of thinking something that is canon must make sense to the original material.

There's a difference between inconsistency and plotholes...and something that is non-canon. Otherwise we'd say the Boo Arc was non-canon with all of its issues. Now of course if people are saying BOG is non-canon because AT only did character designs, that's just people being foolish as we already know how much work AT put into BOG.
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Mihawk
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Ssj3vegito96
Jul 15 2014, 07:26 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Jul 15 2014, 06:44 PM
What about toriyama flat out saying that battle of gods actually did happen in the original material? And that the new 2015 movie coming out has a story that he made and didn't edit like he did with battle of gods?
Anyone able to answer this?
Can you post the quote? He said something similar to the other movies.

I think it's "canon", just not "pure canon" which would be the original source material

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Quote:
 
– The “Dragon Ball” kanzenban have brought in new readers, and I think that as fans it’s only natural that they’d want to see a new “Dragon Ball Z” title. What would you think about making a new anime work about once a year or so?

Toriyama: Oh, I’d like to see that.

Nakatsuru: But by the final chapter, Goku had gotten pretty old. And even after that he was the main character for the anime-original “Dragon Ball GT”. If we’re going to be making stories left and right here, maybe we should rewind time a bit and make them stories set sometime in the past.

Toriyama: I think so too. Instead of continuing the story further and further into the future, it’d be better to do a separate episode style of story development where you go back in time and go “this sort of enemy was here, and this sort of story”. Just say “it wasn’t in the original work, but this sort of story happened”. Maybe that would be better
why is battle of gods an exception? It's intended to be part of the original material and so is the new 2015 movie
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 15 2014, 09:12 PM.
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Zombie
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Father Brofist
Jul 15 2014, 08:16 PM
There's a big difference between something that's canon or non canon and something that's stupid. There's a lot of stupid things in the manga or Battle of Gods, stupid ideas, plotholes, inconsistencies, you name it. Things that don't make sense, this does not make them non-canon. Canon is simply the original material and any material afterwards is canon if considered to be part of the original material by said original author or authors.

If AT came out and said that Piccolo was weaker than Ginyu at the end of Z, that would be canon. It would be a horrible plothole and inconsistency mind you that made no flip of a sense, but that wouldn't make it non-canon. People I think often make the mistake of thinking something that is canon must make sense to the original material.

There's a difference between inconsistency and plotholes...and something that is non-canon. Otherwise we'd say the Boo Arc was non-canon with all of its issues. Now of course if people are saying BOG is non-canon because AT only did character designs, that's just people being foolish as we already know how much work AT put into BOG.
Someone gets it.

Hate it or not BoG is 100% fully canon to the manga.
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Mihawk
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Ssj3vegito96
Jul 15 2014, 09:05 PM
Quote:
 
– The “Dragon Ball” kanzenban have brought in new readers, and I think that as fans it’s only natural that they’d want to see a new “Dragon Ball Z” title. What would you think about making a new anime work about once a year or so?

Toriyama: Oh, I’d like to see that.

Nakatsuru: But by the final chapter, Goku had gotten pretty old. And even after that he was the main character for the anime-original “Dragon Ball GT”. If we’re going to be making stories left and right here, maybe we should rewind time a bit and make them stories set sometime in the past.

Toriyama: I think so too. Instead of continuing the story further and further into the future, it’d be better to do a separate episode style of story development where you go back in time and go “this sort of enemy was here, and this sort of story”. Just say “it wasn’t in the original work, but this sort of story happened”. Maybe that would be better
why is battle of gods an exception? It's intended to be part of the original material and so is the new 2015 movie
Based on that I'd say it's canon to the story but not canon to the manga.

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I don't see what the deal is either. It's not like there are any huge plot holes in BOG are there?

@itachi why? The manga is the original material
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 15 2014, 09:38 PM.
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Mihawk
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Because according to him the other movies are canon to the story too, just in alternative universes. Basically the statement he has there works just as well for the other movies.
Edited by Mihawk, Jul 15 2014, 09:55 PM.

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+ Ssj3vegito96
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He said this new movie's story he's writing is a continuation to manga and it's also a continuation of battle of gods, that means even if he thinks the other movies take place in other universes, battle of gods takes place in the manga universe right?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 15 2014, 10:00 PM.
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