Ssj3vegito96

Jul 18 2014, 03:01 AM

Let's not go too far into dbz. This is just db verse were talking about.

Back on topic: I think naruto verse wins

Ssj3vegito96

Jul 18 2014, 02:48 AM

The thing I'm wondering about though is how goku goes from pushing house sized boulders and throwing cars around, to not being able to lift 10 tons on each limb. Whether ki amplifies lifting/pushing strength or not, goku was only 11 years old when he was doing those feats and when goku is in his 30s , naturally he should be capable of more than what he did as a kid right?

There's multiple feats that suggest he can lift or push or whatever more than 40 tons. The feat in otherworld is the outlier. Should we really be taking it seriously?

Edit: btw, I just want to make it clear again that I'm not saying db verse would win. Naruto verse and db verse are practically on par with each other when it comes to raw power and they hax abilities

Father Brofist

Jul 18 2014, 03:06 AM

Ssj3vegito96

Jul 18 2014, 03:01 AM

Let's not go too far into dbz. This is just db verse were talking about.

Back on topic: I think naruto verse wins

When your on Dragon Ball related characters, anyone from Pain and above is going to take out the DB verse and its only going to get worse when you get to people like Madara and Kaguya. They've got enough physical power and agility on their side to deal with most of of the DB characters by that alone and if by some reason it couldn't, they're genjutsu and injutsu will get the job done as well.

Pain casually busted essentially a city which is enough to put his destructive level feats on King Piccolo and there are of course characters even stronger than Pain there. This is more obvious when the DB characters have almost no way to deal with some of the more abstract genjutsus and ninjutsus that the Narutoverse has.

supersaqer

Jul 17 2014, 11:20 PM

I'm sorry for saying this, but Naruto verse gets crushed unless we see anyone doing moon level destruction. Goku, while injured, was capable of producing enough power to pulverize the moon. Piccolo's blast didn't manage to stop it, and was overpowered. He got hit by his own blast and Goku's. He was still capable of fighting as you can see in the fight later. Their stamina and ki reserves are more than anyone in the entire Naruto verse.

Sjk8

Jul 18 2014, 12:59 PM

Ok, I see that the 40 tons downplaying is still going on: I like how people tend to dismiss the whole manga display of strength only to keep riding their 40 tons beloved dead horse.
Also, they think they're using this 40 tons scene in a correct way, while, on the other hand, they don't even understand how things really work.
But I'm in a good mood, so I can take my time to melt away this sorry argument once and for all.

First thing: in DB battle power in its whole complex is given by four factors: power, speed, stamina (which are physical abilities) and Ki.
Ki is life energy and everyone possesses it, but the difference between normal humans and DB fighters is that the seconds have the ability to control, manipulate and expand their own Ki; when DB characters drop their battle power, their superhuman physical abilities still remain, that's why kid Goku, with absolutely zero Ki control, tanked bullets and lifted a 1+ ton car, and that's also why, on Namek, Krilin and Gohan, despite having lowered their battle power in order not to be discovered by Freeza's henchmen, were still able to jump from land to land at super fast speed.
Here, more specifically, is the actual definition of Ki:

Ki is also known as "latent energy" or "fighting power." The term is the Japanese romanization of the Chinese term "Chi" (?), which directly translates as "life force." This force is a tangible energy inside every living being, its major focus being in the center of the body. By drawing it out, a person is able to manipulate it and use it for performances outside the body. Ki can be used for many different techniques. Usually, the more concentrated the masses are, the more time the user requires to draw it out (to "power up"). When a fighter gathers ki, he is able to gain enhanced strength, speed, endurance, and can increase the power of their attacks to inflict greater damage to opponents.

According to Akira Toriyama, ki is made up of three components: Genki ("Energy"), Yuki ("Courage") and Shoki ("Mind"). It can also be "positive" or "negative", depending on the user.

Now, what everyone must understand is that Goku uses Ki when he fights (obviously he fights at full power) but NOT when he trains his body (i.e. gravitational training).
Here is the Training Session guide:

Power (top)
Speed (right)
Stamina (bottom)
Ki (left)

For each graph, the white portion of the quadrilateral represents Goku's abilities pre-training, and the black portion represents his post-training abilities. Also, the graph always shows Goku's normal power, not his Super Saiyan power.

The size of each quadrilateral on the graph comes from adding up all the stars given to each stat through all the training so far. They don't show you the totals in number form, only through the graph. Each notch on the graph seems to represent 5 star points. The circle that Goku's stats are placed inside up to Kaio's training is labeled "Saiyan limits"; Goku's stats surpass this circle after his spaceship training, and so a bigger circle is drawn around the old circle, and the old circle kept around for comparison's sake.

Spoiler: click to toggle

When Goku trained with the 40 tons, he trained without using Ki if not for flying; the same happened with the gravitational trainings of both Goku and Vegeta; the difference is that, when they fight, they use Ki and, as you can see from the graphic, the reserve of Ki of base Boo saga Goku (not even the Ssj versions) is enormous.
Also, shadowboxing with tons all over your body, while standing in mid air, is =/= from lifting: what Goku was doing was a simulation of a high gravity training without using Ki, like he did when he was on his way to Namek with the 100G training (when also he broke his physical limits, as the guide itself says).
But as far as someone can push, physical abilities have limits, which can be overcome only with Ki (and that's what happens during actual fights):

What's the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, "ki" also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one's right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"]. There's a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with "ki". I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Indeed, after the 40 tons shadowboxing, Goku did specifically trained his Ki, with meditation: as we can see from the guide and the manga itself, he did mental/image training to raise his ki as well.

Now, knowing all of that, let's look back at the 40 tons shadowboxing training:
The feat is correct, it's the way people look at it which is incorrect.
Goku is not LIFTING 40 tons, Goku is WEARING 40 tons, and that's completely different; indeed, Goku's whole body is now weighing not 70 kilos, but 40000 + 70 kilos.
When Vegeta trains at 300G, 60 kg (Vegeta's weight) at a gravitational force 300 times higher than normal, is the equivalent of 18000 kg at normal Earth gravity.
Since heaven (when Goku is training) is nowhere said to have a different gravity from Earth, Goku is trying to move himself with his body weighing 40070 kg at 1G, and that's the same as training in a gravity room with a gravitational force 572 times bigger than the normal one on Earth.
That level of training is thus Boo saga Goku pure physical limit (no Ki).
That's why, despite base Boo saga Goku having a much higher battle power than pre androids base Vegeta, the gap between their supported G isn't as big (572 vs 300).
The same can be said about kid Trunks, who has a much higher battle power as well than that Vegeta, but, in base, with only his physical strength, can't handle a 100G training session.
That's because, as AT himself said and as I reported before, there's always a limit for physical abilities and strength (100G for Trunks, who is still a kid, 300G for pre androids Vegeta and 572G for Boo saga base Goku) which can be surpassed only with Ki; basically, limitless Ki means also limitless physical strength, and more in general, limitless physical abilities (stamina, speed..).

Anyway, another example for what we were saying: think about 23rd Budokai, when Goku was fighting Tien; well, he was literally wearing 250 pounds, which are about 113,4 kg.
So, assuming Goku's weight was still 70 kg, he weighed, in total, around 183,4 kg, under normal Earth gravity.
Gravitational force F is equal to mass*g (g = 9,81 m/s^2), so, doing the equation, we know that 183,4 kg at 1G (9,81) are equivalent to 70 kg at around 25,7 m/s^2; reporting this value to 9,81 gives us a gravitational force about 2,62 times bigger than normal one, i.e. 2,62G.
For EoDB Goku, going around on Earth weighing 183,4 kg, is the equivalent of living under a permanent gravity of 2,62G.
That's why, without those clothes, his battle power rose, and that's why, on King Kai's planet, under 10G, Goku initially struggled so much.

[Obviously, all this argument is still a simplification of what would happen in real terms, because we are not considering the effect that higher gravity has on internal organs and such, while putting weighs on your arms and legs doesn't affect the entrails of the body.
Anyway, it's a good estimation, especially for a simple manga, since, if you weigh 70 kg, and then put 17,5 kg on each arm and leg, you are not able to move anymore at this point, since you now overall weigh 140 kg; the same thing would happen to you, weighing 70 kg, under a double gravity (again, not considering the different aspects as effects on internal organs, blood pressure and such)].

Now, think about this for an instant: BoZ Goku finds it really useful to wear, on a daily basis, 250 pounds in order to constantly train his pure physical strength, yet when he fights and thus when he also enhances his physical abilities with Ki, he is able to overturn a giant Piccolo like nothing:

Spoiler: click to toggle

Piccolo normally weighs 116 kg (226 cm), and at that point he got 10 times bigger, and since weight is a function of volume, and volume increases as the cube of linear dimensions, we have that Piccolo's weight increased by 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000 times (given that Piccolo's body density is the same, since the composition of his body doesn't change).
Piccolo in that form weighted 116 tons.
Also, as you can see from the manga panel, Goku didn't simply lift Piccolo, he overturned him: Goku is like the mainstay around which Piccolo turns, exactly like a door turns around its mainstay; now I ask you a question: why do you think the handle of a door is positioned in an opposite position and as far as possible from the mainstay? Because, in order to open a door, you have to exercise a mechanical momentum, which is given by the multiplication between the force you have to exert and the distance between the handle and the mainstay: at equal mechanical momentum, the more the distance between the handle and the mainstay is, the less force you have to exert in order to open the door.
Goku overturning Piccolo in that way, on the other hand, its' like you trying to open a door pulling near its hinges: this makes his feat requiring an enormous amount of force, much more than a simple lifting.
So:

- BoZ Goku: 250 pounds are a lot in order to increase his pure physical strength (training, NO Ki) while, on an actual fight (WITH Ki) he flips hundreds of tons like nothing. Battle power: less than 1000.

- Boo saga Goku: 40 tons (instead of 250 pounds) are his pure physical limit (training, NO Ki); now, given how his Ki level increased since BoZ (see the graphics of the guide above, the gap is HUGE, whithout even considering Ssj transformations as the guide reports), imagine on an actual fight (WITH Ki) how much he could lift if only he wanted. Battle power: high hundred millions.

The fact is that Goku doesn't care to lift things, what he really cares about is punching stronger than his opponent: all his physical and spiritual energy, when he fights, gets ducted in his striking energy, which, even during the Namek saga, is enough to make people able to sruvive exploding planets on their face spit blood.
The only other lifting-like feat during an actual fight that comes to my mind is this one:

Spoiler: click to toggle

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P13.4-6
Goku: 'I-I didn't want to use this Genki-Dama. It will probably have too much force and squash the entire planet.'

Freeza, not even at his 100% power, is physically helding a force capable to squash a whole planet, literally; and Freeza is a weakling who would get one-shotted by Kaioshin, another weakling of whom nobody cares.

But that's right: base Boo saga Goku in a fight would struggle with a few tens of tons.
If you all want to downplay, at least do it better.

As for the topic, I agree with this:

supersaqer

Jul 17 2014, 11:20 PM

I'm sorry for saying this, but Naruto verse gets crushed unless we see anyone doing moon level destruction. Goku, while injured, was capable of producing enough power to pulverize the moon. Piccolo's blast didn't manage to stop it, and was overpowered. He got hit by his own blast and Goku's. He was still capable of fighting as you can see in the fight later. Their stamina and ki reserves are more than anyone in the entire Naruto verse.

supersaqer

Jul 17 2014, 11:49 PM

200,000 tons? That's absolutely nothing to Saiyan Saga characters. Goku's shockwave from jumping in the Saiyan Saga literally destroyed hills, let alone like punching or even kicking. Frieza Saga Goku kicked Frieza through literally islands, destroying them.

Quote:

 

Okay guys, but the Bijuu Dama wasn't stated anywhere to be a thousand tons nor a million tons, so we need to take that out as you guys throw Goku's feats out of the window.

Steve

Jul 18 2014, 01:24 PM

supersaqer

Jul 17 2014, 11:49 PM

200,000 tons? That's absolutely nothing to Saiyan Saga characters. Goku's shockwave from jumping in the Saiyan Saga literally destroyed hills, let alone like punching or even kicking. Frieza Saga Goku kicked Frieza through literally islands, destroying them.

That's a completely different kettle of fish.

That's their energy creating an explosion/shockwave, not raw physical power or punching force it's a clash of energy.
Scale that up to Buu Saga....why don't they smash the planet every time they punch each other if they're like literally millions of times stronger?
The shockwaves are just the excess Ki from punches, that's all. They might have the energy inside them to blow up moons or planets but not the physical force to do so if they punched a moon or the ground all that would happen is a relatively small amount of the ground would crack.

Quote:

 

Okay guys, but the Bijuu Dama wasn't stated anywhere to be a thousand tons nor a million tons, so we need to take that out as you guys throw Goku's feats out of the window.

But it so clearly is.
Four Tailed Naruto who's way stronger than Sage Mode level characters(who easily lift thousands of tons) could not lift just a small one he had to eat it and fire it and it smashed the ground when it went in him.
Don't try say it's not heavy...

And a true Bijuudama is way way WAY bigger, it's well over 100k tons at the very least and in this instance scaling totally works because it's purely based on the amount of chakra condensed.


I mean seriously guys just to highlight this point, if Saiyan Saga characters have the power to blow up mountains with sheer physical force while fighting why isn't everything destroyed later on?
It's just some inconsistent nonsense to look cool that's why we never really see it again.

TConnor_Demonic

Jul 18 2014, 01:12 PM

Sjk8

Jul 18 2014, 12:59 PM

Ok, I see that the 40 tons downplaying is still going on: I like how people tend to dismiss the whole manga display of strength only to keep riding their 40 tons beloved dead horse.
Also, they think they're using this 40 tons scene in a correct way, while, on the other hand, they don't even understand how things really work.
But I'm in a good mood, so I can take my time to melt away this sorry argument once and for all.

First thing: in DB battle power in its whole complex is given by four factors: power, speed, stamina (which are physical abilities) and Ki.
Ki is life energy and everyone possesses it, but the difference between normal humans and DB fighters is that the seconds have the ability to control, manipulate and expand their own Ki; when DB characters drop their battle power, their superhuman physical abilities still remain, that's why kid Goku, with absolutely zero Ki control, tanked bullets and lifted a 1+ ton car, and that's also why, on Namek, Krilin and Gohan, despite having lowered their battle power in order not to be discovered by Freeza's henchmen, were still able to jump from land to land at super fast speed.
Here, more specifically, is the actual definition of Ki:

Ki is also known as "latent energy" or "fighting power." The term is the Japanese romanization of the Chinese term "Chi" (?), which directly translates as "life force." This force is a tangible energy inside every living being, its major focus being in the center of the body. By drawing it out, a person is able to manipulate it and use it for performances outside the body. Ki can be used for many different techniques. Usually, the more concentrated the masses are, the more time the user requires to draw it out (to "power up"). When a fighter gathers ki, he is able to gain enhanced strength, speed, endurance, and can increase the power of their attacks to inflict greater damage to opponents.

According to Akira Toriyama, ki is made up of three components: Genki ("Energy"), Yuki ("Courage") and Shoki ("Mind"). It can also be "positive" or "negative", depending on the user.

Now, what everyone must understand is that Goku uses Ki when he fights (obviously he fights at full power) but NOT when he trains his body (i.e. gravitational training).
Here is the Training Session guide:

Power (top)
Speed (right)
Stamina (bottom)
Ki (left)

For each graph, the white portion of the quadrilateral represents Goku's abilities pre-training, and the black portion represents his post-training abilities. Also, the graph always shows Goku's normal power, not his Super Saiyan power.

The size of each quadrilateral on the graph comes from adding up all the stars given to each stat through all the training so far. They don't show you the totals in number form, only through the graph. Each notch on the graph seems to represent 5 star points. The circle that Goku's stats are placed inside up to Kaio's training is labeled "Saiyan limits"; Goku's stats surpass this circle after his spaceship training, and so a bigger circle is drawn around the old circle, and the old circle kept around for comparison's sake.

Spoiler: click to toggle

When Goku trained with the 40 tons, he trained without using Ki if not for flying; the same happened with the gravitational trainings of both Goku and Vegeta; the difference is that, when they fight, they use Ki and, as you can see from the graphic, the reserve of Ki of base Boo saga Goku (not even the Ssj versions) is enormous.
Also, shadowboxing with tons all over your body, while standing in mid air, is =/= from lifting: what Goku was doing was a simulation of a high gravity training without using Ki, like he did when he was on his way to Namek with the 100G training (when also he broke his physical limits, as the guide itself says).
But as far as someone can push, physical abilities have limits, which can be overcome only with Ki (and that's what happens during actual fights):

What's the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, "ki" also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one's right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"]. There's a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with "ki". I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Indeed, after the 40 tons shadowboxing, Goku did specifically trained his Ki, with meditation: as we can see from the guide and the manga itself, he did mental/image training to raise his ki as well.

Now, knowing all of that, let's look back at the 40 tons shadowboxing training:
The feat is correct, it's the way people look at it which is incorrect.
Goku is not LIFTING 40 tons, Goku is WEARING 40 tons, and that's completely different; indeed, Goku's whole body is now weighing not 70 kilos, but 40000 + 70 kilos.
When Vegeta trains at 300G, 60 kg (Vegeta's weight) at a gravitational force 300 times higher than normal, is the equivalent of 18000 kg at normal Earth gravity.
Since heaven (when Goku is training) is nowhere said to have a different gravity from Earth, Goku is trying to move himself with his body weighing 40070 kg at 1G, and that's the same as training in a gravity room with a gravitational force 572 times bigger than the normal one on Earth.
That level of training is thus Boo saga Goku pure physical limit (no Ki).
That's why, despite base Boo saga Goku having a much higher battle power than pre androids base Vegeta, the gap between their supported G isn't as big (572 vs 300).
The same can be said about kid Trunks, who has a much higher battle power as well than that Vegeta, but, in base, with only his physical strength, can't handle a 100G training session.
That's because, as AT himself said and as I reported before, there's always a limit for physical abilities and strength (100G for Trunks, who is still a kid, 300G for pre androids Vegeta and 572G for Boo saga base Goku) which can be surpassed only with Ki; basically, limitless Ki means also limitless physical strength, and more in general, limitless physical abilities (stamina, speed..).

Anyway, another example for what we were saying: think about 23rd Budokai, when Goku was fighting Tien; well, he was literally wearing 250 pounds, which are about 113,4 kg.
So, assuming Goku's weight was still 70 kg, he weighed, in total, around 183,4 kg, under normal Earth gravity.
Gravitational force F is equal to mass*g (g = 9,81 m/s^2), so, doing the equation, we know that 183,4 kg at 1G (9,81) are equivalent to 70 kg at around 25,7 m/s^2; reporting this value to 9,81 gives us a gravitational force about 2,62 times bigger than normal one, i.e. 2,62G.
For EoDB Goku, going around on Earth weighing 183,4 kg, is the equivalent of living under a permanent gravity of 2,62G.
That's why, without those clothes, his battle power rose, and that's why, on King Kai's planet, under 10G, Goku initially struggled so much.

[Obviously, all this argument is still a simplification of what would happen in real terms, because we are not considering the effect that higher gravity has on internal organs and such, while putting weighs on your arms and legs doesn't affect the entrails of the body.
Anyway, it's a good estimation, especially for a simple manga, since, if you weigh 70 kg, and then put 17,5 kg on each arm and leg, you are not able to move anymore at this point, since you now overall weigh 140 kg; the same thing would happen to you, weighing 70 kg, under a double gravity (again, not considering the different aspects as effects on internal organs, blood pressure and such)].

Now, think about this for an instant: BoZ Goku finds it really useful to wear, on a daily basis, 250 pounds in order to constantly train his pure physical strength, yet when he fights and thus when he also enhances his physical abilities with Ki, he is able to overturn a giant Piccolo like nothing:

Spoiler: click to toggle

Piccolo normally weighs 116 kg (226 cm), and at that point he got 10 times bigger, and since weight is a function of volume, and volume increases as the cube of linear dimensions, we have that Piccolo's weight increased by 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000 times (given that Piccolo's body density is the same, since the composition of his body doesn't change).
Piccolo in that form weighted 116 tons.
Also, as you can see from the manga panel, Goku didn't simply lift Piccolo, he overturned him: Goku is like the mainstay around which Piccolo turns, exactly like a door turns around its mainstay; now I ask you a question: why do you think the handle of a door is positioned in an opposite position and as far as possible from the mainstay? Because, in order to open a door, you have to exercise a mechanical momentum, which is given by the multiplication between the force you have to exert and the distance between the handle and the mainstay: at equal mechanical momentum, the more the distance between the handle and the mainstay is, the less force you have to exert in order to open the door.
Goku overturning Piccolo in that way, on the other hand, its' like you trying to open a door pulling near its hinges: this makes his feat requiring an enormous amount of force, much more than a simple lifting.
So:

- BoZ Goku: 250 pounds are a lot in order to increase his pure physical strength (training, NO Ki) while, on an actual fight (WITH Ki) he flips hundreds of tons like nothing. Battle power: less than 1000.

- Boo saga Goku: 40 tons (instead of 250 pounds) are his pure physical limit (training, NO Ki); now, given how his Ki level increased since BoZ (see the graphics of the guide above, the gap is HUGE, whithout even considering Ssj transformations as the guide reports), imagine on an actual fight (WITH Ki) how much he could lift if only he wanted. Battle power: high hundred millions.

The fact is that Goku doesn't care to lift things, what he really cares about is punching stronger than his opponent: all his physical and spiritual energy, when he fights, gets ducted in his striking energy, which, even during the Namek saga, is enough to make people able to sruvive exploding planets on their face spit blood.
The only other lifting-like feat during an actual fight that comes to my mind is this one:

Spoiler: click to toggle

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P13.4-6
Goku: 'I-I didn't want to use this Genki-Dama. It will probably have too much force and squash the entire planet.'

Freeza, not even at his 100% power, is physically helding a force capable to squash a whole planet, literally; and Freeza is a weakling who would get one-shotted by Kaioshin, another weakling of whom nobody cares.

But that's right: base Boo saga Goku in a fight would struggle with a few tens of tons.
If you all want to downplay, at least do it better.

As for the topic, I agree with this:

supersaqer

Jul 17 2014, 11:20 PM

I'm sorry for saying this, but Naruto verse gets crushed unless we see anyone doing moon level destruction. Goku, while injured, was capable of producing enough power to pulverize the moon. Piccolo's blast didn't manage to stop it, and was overpowered. He got hit by his own blast and Goku's. He was still capable of fighting as you can see in the fight later. Their stamina and ki reserves are more than anyone in the entire Naruto verse.

I love that you went through all that trouble to calculate Goku's strength but uh...

Dah Rules'

And crushing the planet can simply be a way to describe how much destructive capability it holds, doesn't have to mean the damn thing weighs more than a planet.

Naked Snake

Jul 18 2014, 01:57 PM

Even if one were to concede on the strength point, you're all ignoring how vast the movepool of the Naruto-Verse is. They can absorb techniques, redirect them, send their opponents to a different dimension, distract them with Genjutsu as well as use many other techniques. I also don't see feats matching up to Gai's final Eighth Gate technique, where he literally moves fast enough to distort space. DB just isn't triumphing over these abilities