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- Gremmy Thoumeau vs Kaguya Otsutsuki vs Janemba
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| Gremmy Thoumeau vs Kaguya Otsutsuki vs Janemba | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 2 2014, 08:19 AM (7,314 Views) | |
| + Solid Snake | Jul 2 2014, 08:19 AM Post #1 |
滅Are you frightened?
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Gremmy has insight on both his oppositions power. Kaguya cannot absorb any projectiles attacks. Janemba can't nuke the planet but has everything else. Case 2: Janemba is as smart as Gero. Who wins? |
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| + Steve | Jul 4 2014, 08:51 PM Post #106 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Well yeah but they can only sense Reishi not see it, it's probably masked in some way or else it would be blatantly obvious how powerful he is. Kaguya might not feel it but she should be able to see it, or since he has to focus on things maybe it would appear like a string of chakra connecting him to what he's focusing on. All but basic powers in Bleach have had drawbacks so I don't believe Gremmy will be different it's just he has an insane power readily available nothing like a 5 second timer between his alterations or whatever. And also since he couldn't even grasp Kenpachi's power there is a limit to his abilities, he needed to imagine himself as stronger in order to win. Getting that desperate he should have just turned Kenpachi's heart in to a melon to win, Kenpachi must have been strong enough for that not to work. So I think Janemba at least he shouldn't really manage to turn his insides in to things but even if he can't Janemba isn't easily tanking meteors or handling that vanishing power. It's a very odd match up this one, there's not too much Gremmy could do to beat Janemba but nukes and stuff could beat Kaguya, however she could just dodge it all. Those two would probably be at it for hours simply like "How the f*** do I kill him/her!?" maybe they'd call a truce and be hax buds? |
 Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| Mihawk | Jul 4 2014, 08:56 PM Post #107 |
 
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I'm pretty sure the only reason Gremmy used machines was to have fun. No point of bringing those up. |
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| + Steve | Jul 4 2014, 09:07 PM Post #108 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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That or his imagination is terrible(lol) I don't believe he could make a 1 hit KO gun or anything like that. He tried to imagine Kenpachi's power because he thought it was the only way he could beat him. If he could make literally anything he imagined he could have just created a monkey that if you look at it you die. He didn't create anything remotely unreal, either he or Kubo have no imagination or he was restricted to using real things. If missiles don't work and then a freaking meteor don't work on Kenpachi it's about time you make the 1 hit kill gun/thing to win or you're gonna die. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| EMIYA | Jul 4 2014, 09:11 PM Post #109 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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That's what happens when you put in PIS and CIS into a character. We already see him turning Yachiru's bones into cookies and this wasn't done through reitsu manipulation or anything, this was done through sheer warping of reality. He should've just gone up and done exactly that, turned Kenpachi's bones into cookies and be done with it. Nothing saying he can't. |
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| + Steve | Jul 4 2014, 09:18 PM Post #110 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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I don't think Kubo is so bad a writer that he'd create a character who can do that to anyone and have him not do it against someone he definitely definitely should. Someone more powerful than him he probably can't affect that way, why bother making copies of himself to give him more imagination power if he could just imagine one of Kenpachi's arms off? Or imagine that he doesn't have a sword or know how to use one. There's a practically infinite amount of things he could have done to win if he has no limits, it's to much to explain by PIS or CIS(maybe that) If it is CIS then he's still going to act like a jackass in this fight anyway. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| EMIYA | Jul 4 2014, 09:37 PM Post #111 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I think your giving Kubo there too much credit lol. Gremmy was apparently so powerful or influential they had to keep him locked up or asleep or something and was only brought out under extreme circumstance. The rest of the Quincies wanted nothing to do with him either. The only people who didn't get scared crapless by him was Ywach and Jugo. Just because Gremmy doesn't show something, doesn't mean he can't do it. Especially when his powers are as widely vague as "Imagination" There's nothing saying he can't do anything to Kenpachi's body. Don't be mistaken that just because Gremmy didn't do something, doesn't mean he can't. Its obvious that his reality warping powers are strong enough to completely warp existence itself. He creates new life, takes away. In fact Kenpachi and everyone else actually fought another creation of Gremmy as his real body was just a brain in a jar. The copying I'm sure just helps to increase the mental capacity of himself. All powerful as he might be, he isn't omniscient. It's like they say, two heads are better than one. Gremmy really doesn't have any limits except for what his physical mind and body can allow. If it doesn't occur to him or he doesn't make the proper settings to fill those aspects, things will fall. That's what happened before. He tried to imagine himself stronger than Kenpachi which would've worked had he known he needed to imagine his body to fit that need. But he didn't, he thought increasing his power would be enough. Its also the point that his imagination can work against him. He thought Kenpachi was a literal monster so a more or less literal monster began to break away from him. Or how the thought of himself dying nearly killed him until he got his thoughts together. His powers are a two way sword, they can worth both for and against him. When he's calm and collect, he's obviously keeping things under control but when he gets excited or scared his imagination works against him because he can't think straight. I'm assuming that since Gremmy knows how powerful his opponents are, he's going to play it much safer than he did with Kenpachi. But the main point I'm making is that like I said, we see Gremmy do all these things and implied to do far more not only on the physical nature but on the abstract as well that there's little reason to think he can't do it. Its not like Kubo could make Kenpachi lose but there was so many things that Gremmy could've done that he didn't. To me, it would be like saying Aizen can't just cast an illusion over everyone and slit their throats because he never did it before...even though its clear if he wanted and wasn't confined by PIS and CIS that he could. If this was Gremmy without knowledge on his opponents, there's little doubt he'd be his usual CIS smug self completely underestimate his opponents. |
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| + Solid Snake | Jul 4 2014, 10:11 PM Post #112 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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This is my last time saying this before getting back on topic. With the quotes, its implying the Namek and higher tier characters, light speed combat and reaction speed. Not travel speed, which will make Instant Transmission useless. And a meteor? Really Steve? Janemba could easily withstand something as strong as a solar system+ attack and potency. That was a troll post in all honesty. And using other fictions Brofist rules isnt fair since your simply using Bleach. Using that logic regardless of how much he can warp, Janemba's ki is comparable to SSJ3 Goku's universal sensable, this is greater than Kenpachi own level - so he just implode again. |
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| EMIYA | Jul 4 2014, 10:32 PM Post #113 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Why would Gremmy implode? He just needs to turn Janemba's brain into a cookie and that's it. May I ask what's stopping him from doing that? |
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| + Steve | Jul 4 2014, 10:57 PM Post #114 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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But likewise just because he doesn't show something doesn't mean he could do it. People were scared because he's the strongest and could just wreck the place or them, the Shinigami are scared of Kenpachi too even his own squad just because they're scared of Gremmy doesn't suggest that it's because he can do anything, he's just got a way better power than they do. If he had the power to do whatever he wanted without limits then why would he obey Juha? They couldn't keep him locked up if he could just create a magical button that sets him free. So if he has to make the proper settings, how does he do anything imaginary like a 1 hit Kill gun? If he has to put extra thought in to what would make it 1 hit kill, he's going to struggle to use that. Something like the Vanishing Point guy he probably had to put a lot of thought in to create and all those missiles he probably already had set up how to create. How would he know how powerful they are as opposed to Kenpachi? Janemba would feel overwhelmingly powerful he'd probably be losing his s*** over that, Janemba is definitely going to radiate more power than Kenpachi does probably enough to break him down and imagine his own defeat. There's no reason to think he can't or can do anything abstract but the fact that he never did goes against it, Vanishing Point guy doesn't count since powers in this series aren't an abstract thing, Juha creates the power he gives to whoever. True that he couldn't make Kenpachi lose but I don't think Kubo is dumb enough to make an opponent that should be unbeatable get beaten, what's happened is he was dumb enough to not give Gremmy's power some more background, hence why we're even discussing what potential limits or lack of there are. Well it's not really PIS in Aizen's case nobody was a threat to him until Ichigo came back he just wanted to transcend and do whatever with the Soul King not kill everyone. When Ichigo came back either it's PIS that he didn't seal Kyouka Suigetsu and release it again or he just couldn't, again Kubo failed to give enough background.
Given that physical strength doesn't scale with PL neither should durability towards non energy based attacks, a meteor should still crush him.
Reiatsu logic like what Aizen did if someone in Bleach is vastly more powerful than another their power doesn't work on them, Janemba is that much more powerful. The reason he didn't turn Kenpachi's brain to cookies is more than likely because he was too strong for that to work. Faced with something like Janemba Gremmy's power should probably be subjugated. Gremmy is just a brain/kid he's fighting God-like beings here, so their powers should overpower his like Aizens did, well Janemba's should. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| + Solid Snake | Jul 4 2014, 11:05 PM Post #115 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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Ki enhances their overall abilities Steve. Even believing that Goku cant lift 40 tons without SSJ - with it he considers it as mere child's play, and thats with flying. Janemba is even more stronger than M12 SSJ3 Goku, easy to understand. |
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| EMIYA | Jul 4 2014, 11:33 PM Post #116 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Your assuming that Reitsu is going to cease Gremmy's ability to work on somebody stronger than him. But this is never shown or implied. Because Gremmy's ability doesn't work by manipulating Reitsu, in the same way that Barragan's Respira is based upon time. Janemba can be massively stronger than him but that's not going to stop the Reistu from effecting him. Most abilities use Reitsu in Bleach but not all of them. Its the same idea that, no matter how strong Vegeta might be, he's not going to break out of Aizen's shikai just because he's stronger. Look at Aizen vs Shinji. Despite being far more powerful than Shinji, he was still effected by Shinji's bankai. Janemba's ki going to stop Gremmy from being able to manipulate his sense or physically reconstruct his entire body. |
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| Sjk8 | Jul 5 2014, 10:38 AM Post #117 |
史上最強の孫悟空
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The fact that Janemba would make his head drop before he even has the time to process a thought.
Spite: Janemba is major overkill. Other two can't even react before they found themselves dead in heaven (or hell, as you prefer); you should have put, at least, power and speed equalized if you wanted a fair fight based on warping abilities only. Or, even better, you can still switch Janemba with Babidi: that would be an interesting VS. |
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on  Never argue with ignorant people, because they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience | |
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| + Steve | Jul 5 2014, 11:35 AM Post #118 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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That's still nothing compared to Naruto's Sage Mode strength which is like laughable in the series now. Ki enhances all of their physical abilities, but only to a certain point that's why gravity training becomes redundant and why Vegeta could never close the gap without Babidi's magic, they have physical limits. Those limits are just increased by the various transformations. USSj type forms show that it's not all about Ki their strength is about muscle, namely how much is there to be enhanced.
Aizen stated it as thought that's how all the abilities work if you're that much more powerful than them you can simply negate their "silly" powers as he puts it. You're suggesting he has an almighty power with no limits or weaknesses, Soi-Fon's Shikai was also never stated to be almighty "death in two strikes" absolute death in two strikes, no exception and there never was an exception. Until Aizen overpowered it. Gremmy's power works the same as all the others he's just got a better power than basically all of them as well as it being the least restricted, the fact that there are any restrictions at all shows that it's not an all powerful ability. I'm pretty sure they all use Reishi and always have just Reishi is barely ever a problem in the series as far as I can remember Ichigo is the only one it's ever shown to be running out but they all use it they just tend to get infinite plot Reishi. Reishi seems like a kind of delicate usage of energy, it's like it's blown away by stronger forces because it just kind of aimlessly flows out of them and goes towards their abilities, whereas Chakra is a precise kind of energy usage where it doesn't get blown away and a good technique can cut through anyone unless they're using some kind of defensive technique.
No. Even if he were that fast he's sadistic and wouldn't just kill them right away and then they'd destroy him Kaguya can send him anywhere she wants or just absorb all his energy or take his soul or do the crazy thing the...I forget which path does, when the weird tentacle thing comes out their mouth that immobilizes them and just kills them. Rinnegan is the power of Gods, you can't argue with absolutes. And not your lame DBZ "God's" Also forgetting Shinra Tensei she might not be able to absorb attacks in this fight but she can reflect them. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| Sjk8 | Jul 5 2014, 11:52 AM Post #119 |
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史上最強の孫悟空
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Wow, that's impressive: change place, absorb energy, take/manipulate soul..  To bad all these things have been done by Babidi: put you on another planet at will, absord you life energy, manipulate your soul, blow you from the inside, make even the strongest Demon bending to his will, control with magic a creature that for billions of years destroyed planets and stars, talk to billions of people telepathically at the same time, and more. You'd let to believe that, given all these abilities, Babidi is God tier (as you like to say) in DB; actually, contrariwise, he is nothing but a small, microbe, fodder magic guy who has been casually one-shotted. Here: Spoiler: click to toggle Replace Babid's face with Kaguya's: the outcome will be the same. Oh, and remeber that Full Power Janemba would casually blast Fat Boo in to oblivion. But surely this is a fair fight: keep dreaming. |
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A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on Never argue with ignorant people, because they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience | |
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| EMIYA | Jul 5 2014, 02:02 PM Post #120 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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@ Steve I was going back to look at the chapters and what both Aizen and Kenpachi note is that this is done because of a confronting Reitsu forces going against one another. But it only appears to relate to that Reitsu and physical confrontations directly. Kenpachi: "When two spiritual beings collide, the side with the weaker spiritual pressure gets hurt." Aizen: A battle between shinigami is a battle between Reitsu. What's interesting is that Kenpachi and Aizen use shinigami and spiritual beings respectively and not just "When two forces collide" they're pretty specific on this. For a Quincy though, they aren't spiritual beings, they're normal (for the most part I suppose) humans who utilize Reitsu on the outside force. Shinigami's and Hollows use inner Reitsu from their own body while the Quincy use the outside Reitsu and manipulate it. When Quincy are using their bows and stuff, that's going to be a confrontation of Reistu vs Reistu. But what happens when you get into the non-Reitsu based abilities? You get into things like As Nods "Fear" which isn't a confrontation of Reitsu, its a confrontation of willpower or mental strength. There is Respira, which isn't a fight on Reitsu vs Reitsu but a battle of Reitsu vs Time. You have illusions which like the fear, isn't a battle confrontation between two Reitsus but a battle of mental strength and perception. So its always been a physical confrontation between spiritual objects. So back to Gremmy. He pulls out guns and missiles, things that obviously don't have any Reitsu to them. You know he didn't manipulate the Reitsu in the air to create the guns, he just popped them into existence because of his mind. And why it obviously didn't take Kenpachi down, it left quite a few bruise marks on him. This shouldn't have happened thought because Kenpachi has more Reitsu. Unless of course this wasn't a confrontation of Reitsu. The Steritter's each have a unique aspect to them along with their normal Quincy ability. You know got Bazz-B Burner Finger, you got Masks ability to get stronger through cheering. You have once more As Nods Fear. None of which are using Reitsu, especially not the last two I mentioned. So Gremmy as a Quincy can obviously manipulate Reitsu but his power of imagination is something completely different from that. He wasn't use Reitsu when he put someone in deep space, or making water appear instantly in the air, or making guns appear instantly. So when he messes with Yachiru, he's not messing with he Reitsu or having to bypass her Reitsu to turn her bones into cookies. Its an abstract action that doesn't have to confront anything. He's going straight to the source and his issue is that he needs the mental belief that he can do something or else his imagination will work against him. Reitsu protects against Reitsu, but when it comes to the abstract or non-Reitsu based abilities, it takes mental or physical strength to bypass it. and I really see no way that unless you have some sort of anti-reality warping ability that you're going to stop an abstract ability like Gremmy turning your bones into cookies regardless of how powerful you are. Its just not a confrontation of Reitsu to me. When Gremmy says "your bones are cookies" I don't see that as Gremmy's Reitsu fighting against another Reitsu, I see it as an abstract ability beyond Reitsu effecting not another Reitsu but a physical body directly without having to go through anything else. That's the way I see it. @sjk8 How many times has Janemba instantly went for the kill the moment he saw someone? It's going to be hard for Janemba to do anything if Gremmy or Kaguya put into a black hole before he knows what's going on. Especially in the first round where Gremmy knows how powerful Janemba is. People need to really stop using the BS excuse that "Janemba's just going to speed blitz them." like Janemba or anyone in the series just went up and attack the instant they saw an opponent or ever had to deal with the kind of abstract abilities that Kaguya or Gremmy has. Janemba doesn't know jack about Gremmy or Kaguya while Gremmy at the least (and perhaps Kaguya) are given knowledge about Janemba. Janemba isn't going to go out and start speed blitzing the moment he sees anyone. He's going to be there wondering who these two are and putting himself in great risk because of their abstract abilities. Its only in round 2 that Janemba might take the initiation to attack instantly. |
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