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Decreasing Multipliers
Topic Started: Jun 27 2014, 08:22 PM (518 Views)
UncleGoten Jun 27 2014, 08:22 PM Post #1
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 Other than plot device, what reasons are there for the SSJ multipliers dropping in the series ?
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p123 Jun 27 2014, 08:30 PM Post #2
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Elder Kaioshin saying that transformations were the wrong way of doing things.
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* Ketchup Revenge Jun 27 2014, 08:53 PM Post #3
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

 Aside the numbers in the Daizenshuu and other guides (which actually isn't truly canon), there's no evidence that they existed in the the first place.
Just because Goku's initial transformation is suggested to be 50x doesn't mean that the increase is 50x universally for everyone, or even that there is a set increase at all for the form.

Not to mention that Toriyama stated several times in interviews that he drew Super Saiyan feats to only look like 10x base, not 50x.

This seems to point to why Super Saiyans overall don't look 50x their bases past the Freeza Arc, or even in the Freeza Arc.

Super Saiyans in the Boo Arc definitely don't look 50x their bases, and if you think about it, even a lower intended multiplier could explain the lapse in logic for Saiyan base powers after the Freeza arc.

If Super Saiyan is only implied to be 10x, than something like Goku and Vegeta being at Super Vegeta level in base during the Boo Arc is not that far fetched.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jun 27 2014, 09:06 PM.
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Saberoph Jun 27 2014, 09:01 PM Post #4
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 I know I have firmly followed the x 50. However, in recent debates... I'm not so sure and believe that it could be based on the Saiyans Potential/Dormant power.
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p123 Jun 27 2014, 09:02 PM Post #5
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I'm a strong 50x supporter now.

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 is probably both 4x for me.
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Saberoph Jun 27 2014, 09:04 PM Post #6
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 I have x 4 for SS2 and x 8 for SS3. However, I've never been 100% dead set with SS3.
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* Ketchup Revenge Jun 27 2014, 09:16 PM Post #7
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

 I used to follow the 50x belief, but don't now.

By that logic, a small blast from a Super Saiyan who's base is at Super Vegeta level would wipe out half the planet. Yet we never see that at all. They're lucky if they make a hole the size of a small canyon.

I always think that Freeza's huge gaps were because of suppressions. Freeza's transformations are designed to limit his power output, and I always see it as it's harder to use transformations to gain power than it is to shave it off, this is why his gaps are so huge.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jun 27 2014, 09:17 PM.
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p123 Jun 27 2014, 09:18 PM Post #8
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4x is plenty enough for Super Saiyan 3.

Ki control is much greater post Freeza Saga. Freeza had issues having control over his power thats why he was wrecking the planet like that.
Edited by p123, Jun 27 2014, 09:19 PM.
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* Ketchup Revenge Jun 27 2014, 09:23 PM Post #9
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
p123
Jun 27 2014, 09:18 PM
4x is plenty enough for Super Saiyan 3.

Ki control is much greater post Freeza Saga. Freeza had issues having control over his power thats why he was wrecking the planet like that.
I don't disagree with you about Freeza, but my point over-all would be why transform into Super Saiyan if you're just going to unleash an extremely suppressed ki blast?

That doesn't make any sense at all.
You might as well just stay in base and save yourself the energy and time of transforming and being in the transformation itself.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jun 27 2014, 09:24 PM.
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Mihawk Jun 27 2014, 09:30 PM Post #10
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Ketchup Revenge
Jun 27 2014, 09:16 PM
By that logic, a small blast from a Super Saiyan who's base is at Super Vegeta level would wipe out half the planet. Yet we never see that at all. They're lucky if they make a hole the size of a small canyon.
I don't think physical strength and destructive capability scale at all with PL. It seems more plot related. Back when I analyzed it deeply I found Toriyama "attached strings" to all of the "gonna destroy the planet" or "destroy the moon". Such as with Roshi and Piccolo the moon would be stationary targets. Same as with Vegeta vs Goku or even vs Cell he requested his opponents to stand still.

It's kinda hard to make heads or tails considering 100%the moon/planet busters happened in this fashion. The best explanation would be just writing ploy as you say.

One somewhat "ok" explanation I find is that KHH and other signature blasts won't stop until they find the right density. So Piccolo and Roshi didn't necessarily "destroy" the moon, but poked a hole through it leading it to crack and fall apart. So going by that logic most signature attacks at some point in the series should have higher density than anything on Earth and therefore would destroy it through destabilization if the correct angle is allowed.

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+ Ssj3vegito96 Jun 27 2014, 10:53 PM Post #11
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 I used to use 50x ssj multiplier for buu saga but not anymore. In the buu saga I firmly believe it's only around 3.75x base power. The reason is the kili system. Ssj goku was 3000. Base goku was around the power of yakon who was 800.

Before buu saga I'm fine with the 50x base

I think goku and gohan mastering ssj in rosat might be a good explanation as to why the multiplier dropped?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jun 27 2014, 10:59 PM.
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Saberoph Jun 28 2014, 01:54 AM Post #12
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 I haven't really worked on the Potential Multiplier thing, but with what I have right now is X 50.

However, I have two Multipliers for SS, that's if the user has Mastered it. I have One for the Transformation it's self, but that depends on how well it's mastered, then a Second for Full Power. Considering from Cell Games and up it's shown Super Saiyans Transform, seem relaxed and then Power up to their max. So, to put it into perspective... I'll post it like this using random numbers.

Vegeta: 5,000,000.
Super Vegeta: 25,000,000.
Super Vegeta Full Power: 250,000,000.

However, like I said before, the Transformation Multiplier would depend on how well SS has been Mastered. Now, I still do believe there should be two Multipliers, but I do find myself going with the overall Multiplier being based on Potential.
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+ Saiyan Paladin Jun 28 2014, 04:34 AM Post #13
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 I use 50x myself, it works, but I'm open to a decreasing multiplier.

I just can't see the multiplier for SSj being less than 20x (Thanks to Kaio-ken), but there's the entire possibility of Goku being able to handle higher levels of Kaio-ken past the Freeza-arc..... so I just stick with 50.
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p123 Jun 28 2014, 04:52 AM Post #14
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Ki control isn't suppression. These are different issues. That's why we only get the OMG he's going to destroy the planet is because at their maximum amplification, their control over their blasts are very limited. Full exertion to create the blast is what causes the issue, not the power itself. The power a long time ago could blow up planets, it's the control over their blasts that saves them.

That's why Gohan couldn't let loose against Cell, with one arm he isn't certain about completely letting loosing this massive cannon of a blast and having no control over it.

Just think about if you had to make a ki blast, imagine full exertion and it getting away from you and destroying the planet. It kind of makes sense.
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+ Ssj3vegito96 Jun 28 2014, 05:36 AM Post #15
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Saiyan Paladin
Jun 28 2014, 04:34 AM
I use 50x myself, it works, but I'm open to a decreasing multiplier.

I just can't see the multiplier for SSj being less than 20x (Thanks to Kaio-ken), but there's the entire possibility of Goku being able to handle higher levels of Kaio-ken past the Freeza-arc..... so I just stick with 50.
I think the multiplier is somewhere around 3.75x base power. I was thinking the same thing though. What about kkx20? I understand kaioken is a lot of strain and can't be used as efficiently as super saiyan, but wtf, so now kkx20 goku can one shot ssj goku? Hard to believe. And with buu saga goku as strong as he is, is capable of a lot more than kaioken x20. Why didn't he just start using kaioken more often? To top it off, it scales linearly with power levels unlike ssj.
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jun 28 2014, 05:44 AM.
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