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Why Vegeta and Goku seem to have more potential than Gohan
Topic Started: Jun 26 2014, 02:47 PM (5,150 Views)
Saberoph
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It's said AT rewrote the Original Screenplay, not that his rewrite was the only one.

Get your facts straight and make sure it's the only one before you hold it as 100% fact.

Or what, are you going to hide behind your staff position instead of showing me a director isn't over the writer.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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I Yoeri

Master Saberoph
Jun 29 2014, 09:19 PM
Or what, are you going to hide behind your staff position instead of showing me a director isn't over the writer.
Not sure how my staff position has anything to do with this discussion.

Quote:
 
The December issue of Ultra Jump elaborated on Toriyama's involvement in the movie, stating he came up with the movie's story and character designs.


I am not the one to believe Toriyama's close acquintances would change the script dramatically. Like Clearin already said, Akira Toriyama is the original author/creator of Dragonball, so the situation is hardly the same as any other Hollywood production.

Additionally:

Quote:
 
My abilities as an individual don’t amount to all that much. If I’m going to be working on something, there’s nothing more wonderful than to join forces with talented people and come up with some new idea or effect. This isn’t particularly limited to people in other fields. For example, I’ve worked together before making comics with another cartoonist, my old friend Masakazu Katsura-sensei.1 I drew the original storyboard, and Katsura-kun, who is better at drawing, handled the art; it was an extremely illuminating experience. Our preferences are completely different from each other’s, so we argued constantly about this, that, and the other, but it was fun, realizing that even on the same comic, our ideas could be so different. What we butted heads on the most was that I thought, “I absolutely do not want to move [the readers]!”, while he thought, “I do want to move them!” (laughs) Through the two of us joining forces, I don’t know whether we managed a work that was twice as interesting, but it’s at least certain that it was a new manga. This kind of stimulation felt really fresh, and there were a lot of things that I wouldn’t have noticed on my own. At the next opportunity, I’m looking forward to studying a bit about this thing called “moving people”, and drawing a storyboard that will suit Katsura-kun’s art.


His tone here, along with the fact that the movie is actually set in the main timeline, makes me think it's canon.
Edited by Emmeth, Jun 29 2014, 09:35 PM.
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Saberoph
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So since AT is involved there's an exception to film making?

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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I Yoeri

Master Saberoph
Jun 29 2014, 09:41 PM
So since AT is involved there's an exception to film making?

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
I'm done discussing with you. You've been on the verge of insulting me several times and you're incredibly stubborn.
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Saberoph
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Then prove to me that AT got special treatment than other film makers.

Then I'll take you seriously, until then you shouldn't be.

Because you said I was wrong about something, then I backed up what I said, and instead of proving me wrong, you dismiss it and say you're done.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 29 2014, 09:50 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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I Yoeri

Master Saberoph
Jun 29 2014, 09:47 PM
Then prove to me that AT got special treatment than other film makers.

Then I'll take you seriously, until then you shouldn't be.

Because you said I was wrong about something, then I backed up what I said, and instead of proving me wrong, you dismiss it and say you're done.
For the love of Batman...

I haven't dismissed anything, it's you who can't realize that AT is actually the original creator and should get special treatment. He IS Dragonball and he is heavily involved with the production. Don't generalize this case just because "directors has the final say". Jesus.
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Emmeth
Jun 29 2014, 09:12 PM
Master Saberoph
Jun 29 2014, 09:10 PM
Emmeth
Jun 29 2014, 09:01 PM
Please provide proof that the director had any involvement in the script and then we'll talk.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/

Here's Akira Toriyama's interview where he says Beerus did in fact seal Old Kaioshin inside the Z-Sword.
So, I post a source that shows that a Director is over the writer and you simply ignore it. No, it's your turn... prove to me that a writer doesn't answer to the director? You wanted me to back up my claims, now you do the same.
It's not proof since it's not related to this movie. Sorry, but your source isn't enough.
Yeah, you didn't dismiss anything. I must be seeing things.

I backed up my mouth, now it's your turn.

Until you back up your mouth, to me you're a troll and will be and I really don't care who I piss off either.

Also, it's still film making. It doesn't matter if AT made DB or not. His work didn't get that treatment when the Anime wad made... it got s*** on.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 29 2014, 10:01 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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Master Saberoph
Jun 29 2014, 09:47 PM
Then prove to me that AT got special treatment than other film makers.

Then I'll take you seriously, until then you shouldn't be.

Because you said I was wrong about something, then I backed up what I said, and instead of proving me wrong, you dismiss it and say you're done.
Quote:
 
First of all, please tell us the circumstances around your first hearing about the new movie.
I think it was around 2011? It all started when I came to Tokyo, and my first editor1, Torishima-san, suddenly handed me the scenario and said, “read this!”… I guess? At that time I had no idea what it was, and when I asked Torishima-san what the scenario was for, I heard for the first time about how it was going to be made into an animated movie. (laughs)

So the first movie in a long time was already off to a hot start. (laughs)
Yes. Originally, I was only supposed to check over the scenario, but ended up doing more and more of all this other work. (laughs)


Toriyama was only supposed to look over the scenario, he wasn't even supposed to do anything himself but they allowed him to rewrite the entire story, doesn't that count as special treatment?

Quote:
 
Are there any other areas you struggled with in supervising the scenario?
It was my first experience with writing the scenario, so what I understood the least was, I had no grasp of how much writing would translate to how much length [on screen]. I had thought that the anime staff would further expand on the script I’d supervised, but it seems the scenario was actually so long that it had to be cut down. The anime staff told me that, in the first storyboards, where they had already cut it down somewhat, it was still over 120 minutes long.


Toriyama's script was so long that it actually had to be cut down, so the movie shouldn't contain any of Toei's own material if they couldn't even fit all of Toriyama's in, like he originally thought would happen.

Quote:
 
How did you end up writing the story?
When I went to Tokyo, all of a sudden Torishima-san1 told me, “Read this script. We want to make a movie out of it.” (laughs) When I read it, I thought it might be a bit too complex for kids, and that the story was a bit too serious. For the dialogue as well, there were turns of phrase that only the creator would know, so I sent in a revision, [saying] “How about something like this?” Later, I took a look at the revised script, and as I looked at the dialogue and other parts that bothered me, [it dawned on me that] I had written the entire story without realizing it. (laughs) I felt that the part of a god appearing was the main point of this movie, so I left it in, but the rest had become the story I came up with myself. (laughs wryly


Same question as the first but with a more detailed answer. Toriyama looked over everything, including the dialogue and changed it all.

Quote:
 
What are your thoughts on having tried something new by making the story?
It was very interesting. More than anything, I don’t have to draw anything… I’ll just get that joke out of the way. (laughs) It’s the first movie since the live-action version, so I also wanted to really show people the aspect of, “this is Dragon Ball“. Before, I also had the serialization, so I wasn’t deeply involved with the animated works, and I left a lot of it up to [the anime staff].1 But this time, I checked over the script carefully for the first time. (laughs)

What I understood the least in being involved was how long of a script would be finished into how long of a movie.2 Writing it, I had the sense that there wasn’t enough story, and thought they would expand on it for me. But on the contrary, it had gotten so long that they had to cut it down. I wish I’d known that beforehand. But, to the extent that I think, “if there were 10 more minutes, I could have made it even more interesting~,” I also think it’s plenty interesting the way it is now!

Those who have seen the film gave me their impressions that, “Maybe it’s because you were involved, Sensei, but I thought it was a very Dragon Ball animation,” which made me happy. Everyone on the staff made [the movie] according to the scenario I wrote…but on the other hand, I also got the impression that it’s because they worked hard, saying, “this isn’t manga, so let’s do our best with it as animation!”


The main line here is "Everyone on the staff made [the movie] according to the scenario I wrote"

But since I'm completely unbias here, here's something that supports Saber:
Quote:
 
How was the experience of having the scenario you supervised become animation?
When coming up with things myself and drawing things myself, nothing will come of it that’s more than what I’d imagined, but if I entrust it to other people, it’s fun how something might come out that’s greater than what I’d imagined. While writing the scenario for the fight scenes, I’d thought about what sort of visuals they might become, but the fight scenes were far more enjoyable than my own imaginings. I’m the type of person who isn’t bothered one bit about other people changing his own work, so it’s better if other people work on it to make it more and more interesting, and in that sense, it would have been fine if the people on the anime staff had changed it even more.


The whole thing is basically Toriyama admitting he doesn't care if other people change his work but look at the last line. He says he wouldn't have minded if they changed MORE, meaning they did change some stuff at least.

Quote:
 
What are your thoughts on having participated in the movie?
It was fun~! This time, I devoted myself exclusively to creating the story, so I was happy most of all at how it became many times more enjoyable by other people’s hands. In particular, the climactic battle exceeded my expectations by far!!


Toriyama once again stating that it become "more enjoyable" due to other peoples alternations.
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魔王子

Prove to me that Toriyama's version of the script was changed in the script to screen transition. Until then, don't expect us to take you seriously. The funny part is though, even if you prove that his version of the script was edited, it's no different than Toriyama's editor telling him to change things about the manga. It's canon regardless as far as I'm concerned.
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Saberoph
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Then show me where AT actually says BOG is canon to the Manga.

I'll be waiting for those exact words... good luck. :D
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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魔王子

Master Saberoph
Jun 29 2014, 10:16 PM
Then show me where AT actually says BOG is canon to the Manga.

I'll be waiting for those exact words... good luck. :D
Prove to me that Toriyama said the manga was canon. Toriyama probably doesn't even know what the term means.
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Saberoph
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So, when I challenge you... instead of backing it up, you instead tell me to do something.

Wow, how about back it up before you challenge someone else.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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Another relevant quote:
Quote:
 
This was the first time that I participated in creating the story for a theatrical Dragon Ball anime. But that isn’t to say that I was requested to participate; rather, while I thought the concepts in the story I received were good, the contents were a bit dark, and in the midst of making partial changes, I got carried away, and ended up making it into an almost completely different story. That’s the correct way to put it. Since the creator was the one making the changes, I suppose I may have caused a lot of trouble for the production side of things. For the scriptwriter in particular, it can’t have been pleasant.


Particularly: "Since the creator was the one making the changes, I suppose I may have caused a lot of trouble for the production side of things."

He is literally saying he got special treatment because he was the creator.
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魔王子

Master Saberoph
Jun 29 2014, 10:19 PM
So, when I challenge you... instead of backing it up, you instead tell me to do something.

Wow, how about back it up before you challenge someone else.
Haven't you just been doing that this whole time? Anyway, my post has a point. Toriyama hasn't even declared a canon. Anyway, I think this conversation is over. You're posts are conjectural, and you've been ignorant to most of the evidence I've provided for my point of view. I think it's time we got this thread back on track, which is about Goku and Vegeta's seemingly greater potential in Battle of Gods.
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Wait, this argument is about Vegeta's rage boost, right?

Quote:
 
However, since it’s the first Dragon Ball animation in a long time, I also intended to get people acquainted with it, not just through fighting, but by enjoying this silly, lively world to the fullest. Plus, things like getting involved with the world of a God of Destruction, Vegeta’s breakdown, and Goku not being victorious were all episodes that would be very difficult to touch upon if it weren’t the creator doing it.


Toriyama takes full credit for that right here. At least, I assume that's what "Vegeta's breakdown" refers to.
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