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Why Vegeta and Goku seem to have more potential than Gohan
Topic Started: Jun 26 2014, 02:47 PM (5,152 Views)
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What even is the burden of proof here?
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魔王子

Pyrus
Jun 28 2014, 04:45 PM
What even is the burden of proof here?
That's a damn good question.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jun 28 2014, 04:41 PM
Clearin
Jun 28 2014, 04:39 PM
Actually it was Toei who wrote the original script and Toriyama who rewrote the entire thing (keeping only the God elements).
Kinda already pointed that out.
Mostly I wanted to point out that it wasn't Toriyama who had to keep changing his original script, it was Toriyama who changed the original script that was written by the Anime company.
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Saberoph
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jun 28 2014, 04:36 PM
Master Saberoph
Jun 28 2014, 04:33 PM
I'm still waiting on you proving that the other writer did nothing and AT wrote every single word and everything was all AT's ideas and words.

If you can prove that, then BOG can be taken seriously as canon, if it can't then it's can't be Manga canon.

So, let's see it.
I needn't prove anything other than what we actually know. You're assuming things you can't prove, which is the problem. Toriyama, like I said, has even incorporated Beerus into the events of the manga. For example, Toriyama has stated Beerus was the one that trapped Ol' Kaioshin in the Z-Sword. Also, your definition of canon is highly skewed:
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Canon is the material accepted as part of the story in an individual fictional universe

It doesn't have to be written by the original author to be canon. That's like saying Star Wars episodes 7, 8, and 9 aren't going to be canon because George Lucas won't be involved.
You're either missing the point in film making, or you're purposely ignoring it so you can say BOG is canon.

A Director has the Final say on everything including the writing, not everything but the writing. TOEI the ones who have a fail logic and worship the ground Kakarrot walks on and is well known for contradicting themselves all the time, is the Director of BOG.

1. That should raise so many questions and should make people worry about it being canon instead of accepting it.
2. The Director always the final say on everything that goes into the Movie.
3. There is never just one writer on a Movie.
4. The writer has to answer to the Director and has to change the script whenever the Director wants it done.
5. AT wasn't calling the shots on BOG, when TOEI tells him to jump he says how high? AT had to do whatever he was told.
6. TOEI is well known for making multiple contradictions in their stories.
7. TOEI is known for having a fail logic that doesn't add up.

Those are things that does need to be considered when making the decision on weather BOG is canon or not. And I feel less half of that is ignored just because AT rewrote the screenplay.

Like I've said in other Threads... I was happy to hear that AT did the writing, but the fact TOEI is the Director, should bring serious question about it being canon or not.
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Master Saberoph
Jun 28 2014, 05:05 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jun 28 2014, 04:36 PM
Master Saberoph
Jun 28 2014, 04:33 PM
I'm still waiting on you proving that the other writer did nothing and AT wrote every single word and everything was all AT's ideas and words.

If you can prove that, then BOG can be taken seriously as canon, if it can't then it's can't be Manga canon.

So, let's see it.
I needn't prove anything other than what we actually know. You're assuming things you can't prove, which is the problem. Toriyama, like I said, has even incorporated Beerus into the events of the manga. For example, Toriyama has stated Beerus was the one that trapped Ol' Kaioshin in the Z-Sword. Also, your definition of canon is highly skewed:
Quote:
 
Canon is the material accepted as part of the story in an individual fictional universe

It doesn't have to be written by the original author to be canon. That's like saying Star Wars episodes 7, 8, and 9 aren't going to be canon because George Lucas won't be involved.
You're either missing the point in film making, or you're purposely ignoring it so you can say BOG is canon.

A Director has the Final say on everything including the writing, not everything but the writing. TOEI the ones who have a fail logic and worship the ground Kakarrot walks on and is well known for contradicting themselves all the time, is the Director of BOG.

1. That should raise so many questions and should make people worry about it being canon instead of accepting it.
2. The Director always the final say on everything that goes into the Movie.
3. There is never just one writer on a Movie.
4. The writer has to answer to the Director and has to change the script whenever the Director wants it done.
5. AT wasn't calling the shots on BOG, when TOEI tells him to jump he says how high? AT had to do whatever he was told.
6. TOEI is well known for making multiple contradictions in their stories.
7. TOEI is known for having a fail logic that doesn't add up.

Those are things that does need to be considered when making the decision on weather BOG is canon or not. And I feel less half of that is ignored just because AT rewrote the screenplay.

Like I've said in other Threads... I was happy to hear that AT did the writing, but the fact TOEI is the Director, should bring serious question about it being canon or not.
I'm not purposely ignoring anything. You are purposely ignoring the fact that you're making conjecture. Toriyama wasn't forced to do anything until proof is provided, and you have none. Toriyama was given a script, he didn't like it, so he rewrote it, and the movie was green lighted. That's all there is to it. Toriyama pretty much wrote Battle of Gods. Toriyama also designed Beerus, Whis, and SSJ God. Oh he also keeps incorporating Beerus into the events of his manga, which you again are failing to address. Toei being the director of the film doesn't automatically give it the boot. No such rule exist, hell no established canon exists. Toriyama accepts it as part of the continuity, and I do as well. Honestly, the only reason people disregard this film is because it doesn't line up with their preferred power levels. News flash, Gotenks doesn't line up with my preferred power levels, but it doesn't make it any less canon.
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Then you have to prove to me that BOG isn't like other movies and have only one script, and all the ideas were all AT and none of them were from TOEI.

You can't tell me that TOEI agreed to EVERYTHING AT wrote, and didn't want changes of their own. Besides even in an Anime there isn't just one draft to a script. AT may have rewrote the original script, but you can't tell me every draft after that was all him.

That's the point I'm making. Movies never have only one script and the Director is always involved in the script and it being rewrote. BOG shouldn't be an exception to this, it's like any other movie. It shouldn't get special treatment because AT is involved.

This may seem like I'm being a smart a***, but I'm not. That's how film making works, there is never just one script and the Director does have the final say on everything. To say there's only one script and that TOEI didn't have any input on any of the versions of it is just silly and isn't practical.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 28 2014, 06:33 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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魔王子

What does it matter whether the final script was touched up by Toei? Also, yes I can say Toriyama made the final script since that's kinda what's implied. It's on you to prove the contrary. Toriyama's editor also had a lot of influence on Toriyama so not even the manga is all Toriyama. You argument falls based on that alone, and that's not even taking into account other definitions of canon.
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It's only implied that AT wrote the second script, since he rewrote the Original screenplay.

It still doesn't take away the fact that BOG was Directed by someone who contradicts themselves all the time and always uses a fail logic and who isn't really all that credible because of that. And it's ignored because AT is on the list of writers.

Also, if I wanted to get technical, I could say SSG isn't canon because it was TOEI's work, not AT's since it was there before him and he didn't do anything with it.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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Are you dancing around the issue?
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Master Saberoph
Jun 29 2014, 02:19 AM
It's only implied that AT wrote the second script, since he rewrote the Original screenplay.

It still doesn't take away the fact that BOG was Directed by someone who contradicts themselves all the time and always uses a fail logic and who isn't really all that credible because of that. And it's ignored because AT is on the list of writers.

Also, if I wanted to get technical, I could say SSG isn't canon because it was TOEI's work, not AT's since it was there before him and he didn't do anything with it.
Yeah, cuz Toriyama toooooootally doesn't contradict himself <_< . Toei directing the film doesn't detract from the overall canosity of this film. Toriyama designed SSJ God sooooooooo.... Look man, your fighting a losing battle, so I suggest you let this go. It's canon to me, and you can't really convince me otherwise, especially with the route you're taking.
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The SSG was me being a smart a***, that goes no where and is as stupid as saying Broli is SS4 level.

Fine let's be serious here, no being a technical smart a*** and arguing using TOEI's logic.

At some point everyone contradicts themselves. However, TOEI has a habit of doing every time you turn around and uses a fail logic that falls face first.

Do I consider BOG canon? Only to the Anime, but not to the Manga, mainly due to TOEI's involvement and their track record with how they handed DBZ and the constant contradicts they used all through the series. Also, I can't consider BOG canon to the Manga because of hoe film making works and logically AT would have to play TOEI's game, and at some point TOEI would have AT make some changes.

Would there be a lot of changes? That's a 50/50 thing, because scripts for movies are rewritten all the time and one day the script could say one thing and the very next day it says something different.

Almost every day Sylvester Stallone rewrote the script to the Expendables and it's flat out said in the behind the scenes feature. So, what I've said about the script not only being AT's writing and TOEI having changes made, isn't that far of a stretch.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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Let's say TOEI was involved 1% in this project... Does that make it non-canon just because it's TOEI? The script they directed was written by Akira Toriyama and the director has jack-s*** to do with the script other than making it into a film.

It's no less different from how an editor gets a manga into the works, really. Going by that logic, nothing is canon.

You're really pulling for farfetched theories now.
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Saberoph
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How about instead of calling what I say far fetched, actually proving me wrong and showing me that a Director has Nothing to do with the script.

Also, in Batman and Robin Joel Schumacher had to do what the studio wanted. If you watch it with the commentary on, he flat out says the studio wanted all the stupid crap we saw in that movie.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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But...it's not their job to prove you wrong. It's your job to prove them wrong this time.
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That goes both ways. They have been challenged over and over and nobody has yet to not only prove me wrong, but instead of providing a logical answer, my comments are shot down and aren't look at in a logical way. Where I gave reliable examples about how film making works, and yet nobody can prove my claims wrong.

I am not above admitting I'm wrong, and I will admit it if someone can prove my statements wrong about the Directors involvement and prove me wrong in saying TOEI makes BOG credible. Since I having TOEI there questions the movies credibility as it is.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 29 2014, 06:45 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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