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Base Kids & No. 18; The Discussion Thread
Topic Started: Jun 7 2014, 09:23 PM (8,862 Views)
olliebalollie
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Let me try to explain this again, since I have more time to elaborate on what I've said earlier and hope I can explain it better this time around.

The premise of Vegeta being superior falls apart if Vegeta is not above Piccolo. To me it’s simple, being confident in yourself is one thing, but history has proven that Vegeta has a terrible track record which lowers his accuracy of his prediction (especially every time he predicts something wrong). Is that what Toriyama’s portraying... the next time Vegeta predicts something, he may be right?

If Toriyama wanted to show Vegeta having confidence and having a real chance of winning against Piccolo, #18 and Gohan, Toriyama shouldn't have wrote this;

During Majin Boo Arc:

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”
Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...”

Is Vegeta accurate ^ above? If Vegeta is not accurate, then why is Goku closer to the truth? Do you see my point?

To me Vegeta is way off or his blinded by pride and refuses to admit the truth. Either way it doesn’t give me and should not give you confidence in believing in what Vegeta said about his chance of winning against Piccolo, #18 and Gohan whom are his main threat.



During Freeza Arc:

Chapter: 304 (DBZ 110), P10.5-6
Context: After Dende heals him and he realizes Freeza's reached his fourth form.
Vegeta: “Well, I don’t care if Freeza or anyone else comes at me…! I’ve just now become a Super Saiyan…!”

Chapter: 305 (DBZ 111), P13.4
Context: Vegeta can’t follow Freeza’s movement.
Freeza: “I get just a little serious and raise my speed, and it seems that you can’t keep up with me…Are you really a Super Saiyan?...”
Vegeta: “Im-impossible…”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P1.3-4
Freeza: “Quite frankly, with that level of speed you can’t win against me…Please don’t make me laugh. The Super Saiyan was just a stupid legend.”
Vegeta: “Is this my limit…?! Impossible…That can’t be…!”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P3.1
Context: As Vegeta gets mad and fires at Freeza.
Piccolo: “Are you trying to wipe out the planet along with him?!”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P5.1-2
Context: Talking about Vegeta’s planet-destroying attack.
Piccolo: “[Freeza] knocked that back with just a kick…”
Kuririn: “That should have been Vegeta’s full power strike…[Freeza]’s too incredible…”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P10.2
Context: As fourth form Freeza beats up on Vegeta.
Goku: “Vegeta’s ki keeps getting smaller…Even though he was supposed to have gotten outrageously stronger…Is Freeza that strong…?!”


Cell Arc:

Vegeta sensing ki correctly:

Chapter: 378 (DBZ 184), P11.2, P11.4
Context: After Cell unleashes his full power.
Vegeta: “Oh, your battle power really flew up there…But so what?”
Trunks: “…This is father’s victory.”

Chapter: 378 (DBZ 184), P13.6
Context: After Cell punches Vegeta at full power.
Vegeta: “So you’re merely at this level after all, huh?...Seems my training opened up too big of a gap between us…”

Chapter: 379 (DBZ 185), P12.6
Vegeta: “Looks like you really did put all your power into that, and it was merely that level…You’ve disappointed me…! This is so anticlimactic…I came to see just how incredible you were…”


Goku sensing correctly:

Chapter: 374 (DBZ 180), P6.5, P7.1
Goku: “I can’t beat you the way I am now, no matter how I turn things over…But…Wait 1 day…! Then I’ll definitely beat you black and blue, you’ll see!”



Vegeta being tricked:

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.2
Context: After Cell finally reaches his perfect form
Vegeta: “Kukkukkuh…So even his perfect form doesn’t look like anything special. He’s even gotten smaller than he was before.”

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.1-4
No.16: “Cell really did get considerably stronger…But Vegeta’s still better than him at everything!”
Vegeta: “Damn you. You’re not taking this seriously.”
Cell: “I told you I was warming-up.”

Chapter: 383 (DBZ 189), P12.4, P14.4
Context: After Vegeta tells him to fight seriously
Cell: “Well, just a little bit then…”
*Vegeta kicks him, to no effect*
Cell: “Fuffuffuh…’Super Vegeta’, huh?...”



So why can’t Vegeta sense this correctly:

Chapter: 383 (DBZ 189), P4.8, P5.1, P6.1
Context: After Kuririn says Vegeta will be killed by Cell.
Kuririn: "It-it's true that I'm absolutely nothing special compared to you Saiyans...B-but I can at least tell how strong my opponent is...S-so I know how fearsome he is...Even though I was just barely tapped by him, I know his fearsomeness...! You can't go by the ki you can feel now...He's hiding far, far more terrible power...!"

Chapter: 386 (DBZ 192), P4.4-5
Context: Trunks tells Kuririn he won't need a senzu for his fight with Cell.
Trunks: "Because I will definitely win."
Kuririn: "He's incredibly confident."


Vegeta being over confident:

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: After Goku says he’ll fight first Cell first.
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”



Is Base Vegeta during Majin Boo Arc [Pre-Majin] above Piccolo [meaning Piccolo is at least close to or above SS1 Super Vegeta and SS1 Super Trunks]?

Examples:

Keys:

~ = Close to
> = Above
< = Below
SS2 Rage Kid Gohan = Standard measuring stick


SS1: x50
SS2: x100

SS2 Rage Kid Gohan: 10
SS2 Goku & SS2 Majin Vegeta: 13
Must be > 10 because Vegeta used the word greater and Piccolo back up Vegeta’s statement by saying SS2 Majin Vegeta is above SS2 Rage Kid Gohan.
SS2 Teen Gohan [tournament]: 8
SS1 Goku: 6.5
SS1 Vegeta [Pre-Majin]: 5.5
SS1 Gohan: 4
Base Gohan: 0.08
Piccolo: At the very least should be around 3 to 5.

If people believe Base Saiyans are above Piccolo, then that implies the Saiyans increased there base strengths over x50 or more from Cell to Majin Boo. Besides the Freeza Arc (x33, x25, x10, x7) there is no evidence to suggest the Saiyans made that type of leap and no evidence of zenkai boost after super saiyan.

If Saiyans did make anything close to x50 base, then Future Trunks didn't need to transform, his base should be easily more then enough for Imperfect Cell and Future #17 and #18.



SS2 Rage Kid Gohan > SPC > PC [FP] ~ FPSS1 Kid Gohan?

PC [Suppressed] > FPSS1 Goku > Super Vegeta ~ Super Trunks > Piccolo?


Cell > SSFP Goku:

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…”

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P13.5
Context: After Goku says there’s other people to fight Cell besides him.
Cell: “It’s the same thing. Vegeta and Trunks may have raised their power, but they should still be inferior to you…”


Dabra ~ Perfect Cell Statements:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: After Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: "Hmph...The way things are going, this 'Majin Boo' guy isn't going to be anything special, is he? Just like that 'Dabra' jerk...[ ] I'm saying that this 'Dabra' guy doesn't seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can't call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that..."
Kaioshin: "...Is-is that true, Son Goku?..."
Goku: "Yeah...Well, even if that wasn't him at full force...I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but...7 years ago there was a guy called 'Cell'...[Dabra]'s probably about as strong as him..."


Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: As Dabra fights Gohan.
Goku: "Magic, huh? He's way stronger than I thought, ain't he?"
Vegeta: "Hmph...Even so, he's not an opponent [he? we?] can't win against. [Gohan]'s so pathetic...So much so that he was stronger as a brat..."
Goku: "He really did slack off!"


Dabra Bio - Daizenshuu:
A fairly even battle unfolded between him and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Afterwards, he sensed that the revived Majin Buu was dangerous, and tried to defeat him, but was turned into a cookie and eaten. Despite being the strongest in the Demon Realm, feared even by Kaioshin, he came to an extremely pathetic end...


^ Which version of Cell is Goku referring too? PC or SPC or PC [suppressed]?

Since we know SS2 Goku & SS2 Majin Vegeta > SS2 Rage Kid Gohan > SS2 Rage Teen Gohan > SS2 Teen Gohan ~ Dabra Full Power


Base Gohan ~ = > Kibito:

An old-looking man who works as Kaioshin's attendant. Though a good person, it seems that at first he was disdainful of Gohan and the other humans of the lower world, and did not trust in Super Saiyan power. His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 438 (DBZ 244), P5.5
Context: After Gohan gets matched with Kibito in round 1.
Goku: “You’d better not let your guard down. I don’t think he’s just some regular joe.”
Gohan: “Y-yeah…I get that feeling too.”


Feat = Kibito was one-shotted by Dabra.



Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4
Context: As Goku and Vegeta are about to fight.
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: After Goku and Vegeta fight for a while.
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”


Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”


Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: After Piccolo and Kaioshin's match.
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo's pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin's way stronger than him, you could still argue that he's mistaken or lying...I guess.
Edited by olliebalollie, Oct 29 2014, 10:43 AM.


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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

But you have to prove that Vegeta's statement there falls apart. Things he says in the past don't make it fall apart. Even if Vegeta was unaware of the potential increases his opponents may have made at the time, he still has himself to go by. He knows No. 18 joining the tournament and that he may have to fight to her, he also knows that Piccolo is going to join the tournament and that he may have to fight him. He know where No. 18 stood last time and he knows where Piccolo stood last time.

In short, Piccolo is confident enough to take on opponents that were android arc tier levels and a character who at the least was above No. 17 in power (owing to Piccolo's training overall)

Whether or not Vegeta is right about beating the current No. 18 and Piccolo doesn't really matter in the end. What matters is his comparison to his SSJ Android Arc self and how that compared to Post-God Piccolo and No. 18 and that failed miserably. He himself knows how that both would turn and did turn out. Again Vegeta's never been arrogant enough to claim superiority on something which he wasn't.

With Cell, even No. 16 states he superior.

Against Boo, he was superior.

The only reason he was wrong was because the opponents had more power to them then he realized. But he never came up to somebody who was clearly superior to him and then adamantly refused to accept it. But with No. 18 and Piccolo, that's not a problem. He knows where he needs to be at least if he wants to defeat them in his base form. Unless he believes they got weaker somehow, he knows to expect at least the No. 18 he fought and the Piccolo that fought in the Cell Games. He felt Piccolo's power back when he was fighting Imperfect Cell in Gingertown.

Vegeta's has no reason to gloat here if its not true. Vegeta's gloating has always had some sort of merit to them. He didn't just sprout nonsense out of his mouth.
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Everyone was wrong about the androids and Cell, even Goku, Korin, and Krillin. Everyone was wrong about Majin Boo, even Goku. They may have been right at certain times, but overall, they were wrong, and isn't that what Vegeta's being persecuted for?

It really doesn't matter whether Vegeta has a bad track record, which is still up for debate at this moment. You can't prove someone wrong if the evidence isn't there to prove them wrong. Every character has what's called the benefit of assumption—they're right until proven wrong, not the other way around. A track record of being wrong doesn't necessarily do that for them. Something valid and quantifiable needs to be shown (I use that term loosely) for us to deduce that that character is definitely wrong.

Vegeta needs another character to tell us he's wrong. He himself needs to tell us he's wrong. He needs a feat to show us he's wrong. He needs Toriyama or another outside source to tell us he's wrong.

His track record itself isn't enough evidence to automatically claim he's wrong if what he's saying doesn't fly with us.
Pyrus the Vyrus
 
It isn't as cut and dry as Vegeta proclaiming something and then being shown up. There's always context to take into consideration. Merely looking at one's stats is exactly what the use of scouters showed us not to do.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Vegeta's not really even gloating. It's obvious he wants to use SSJ and angry that he can't but at the time he's confident enough to hold the advantage in his base form. He states it like it was a matter of fact and not arrogance on his part. In the same way that Goku states he can defeat Boo at full power. It wasn't arrogance it was treated in the manga as a fact that nobody questioned.

Vegeta has no right to say anything if he's weaker than his SSJ Android Arc self in base. Toriyama could easily have had Vegeta not say the line if it wasn't true, or have someone speak up about it, or anything to denote that Vegeta wasn't speaking the truth.
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Mihawk
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@olliebaba seeing that you're always talking about the author's intent. Did you ever consider that the entire point of the scene was to hype up the kids? It wasn't just some entertainment fight for the readers. Toriyama was showing us how absurdly strong and relevant the kids were.

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You wanna make an argument for Vegeta'a arrogance? Fine. Tell me though, why does Gohan think he can handle the Budokai participants? Sure he suggests it to avoid being noticed by his classmates, but then, I'm sure he doesn't want to be knocked out of the tournament faster than you can say Snake Way.
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Quote:
 
@wolf
@olliebaba seeing that you're always talking about the author's intent. Did you ever consider that the entire point of the scene was to hype up the kids? It wasn't just some entertainment fight for the readers. Toriyama was showing us how absurdly strong and relevant the kids were.


Truthfully, I always thought the whole purpose was to use the tournament as a platform to introduce Kibito and Kaioshin and continue the story. This is just my opinion.

The way I see it is, Gohan was blackmailed to fight, Goku had 1 day on Earth, and Vegeta was going to enter and fight as well, but before the tournament started there was a monkey wrench - the kids are told they cannot fight with the adults, Kaioshin and Kibito along with Yamu & Spopovich are introduced, the adults don't fight besides Gohan getting his energy drained, all points towards story for the volume.

Quote:
 

@ThePrince
You wanna make an argument for Vegeta'a arrogance? Fine. Tell me though, why does Gohan think he can handle the Budokai participants? Sure he suggests it to avoid being noticed by his classmates, but then, I'm sure he doesn't want to be knocked out of the tournament faster than you can say Snake Way.


Quote:
 
@Father
But you have to prove that Vegeta's statement there falls apart. Things he says in the past don't make it fall apart. Even if Vegeta was unaware of the potential increases his opponents may have made at the time, he still has himself to go by. He knows No. 18 joining the tournament and that he may have to fight to her, he also knows that Piccolo is going to join the tournament and that he may have to fight him. He know where No. 18 stood last time and he knows where Piccolo stood last time.


First off, I understand Vegeta's confidence, as I've said earlier, there is a difference between Toriyama wanting to portray Vegeta as someone who is confident [There is a better way to portray Vegeta being confident and that is only used the conversation he had with Gohan - at Vegeta's house where Goku also said I'll fight as well"] in his abilities and using that as evidence to say "hey Vegeta and Gohan are both confident in winning against Piccolo and #18". As the whole premise of that falls upon Vegeta's and Gohan's reliability. But the unfortunate thing is that Toriyama included direct evidence to shoot himself in the foot.

O.K let's forget about stats for a moment (even though numbers never lie), let's just focus on what we can prove and disprove;

1. Do you agree that Gohan [Tournament and Majin Boo] was weaker compared to his Cell Arc form? yes/no
2. Do you agree that it took Goku 7 years of training for him to surpass Gohan in his base and SS1 and SS2 forms? yes/no
3. Do you agree that Piccolo/Kamiccolo rivaled #17 during Android Arc?
4. Do you agree that Piccolo after ROAST is around Super Vegeta and Super Trunks (After 2nd trip to ROAST)?

^ if you agree to all above, then it's almost impossible for Base Gohan (if he doesn't use SS) to win against Piccolo, especially if you factor in that in took Future Trunks to train inside the ROAST (twice) and he transformed against a weaker versions of #17 and #18.

Mathematically and with Toriyama's own fault Base Gohan cannot win against Piccolo.

If Toriyama did really intend that scene/line to be truth, then I guess Toriyama shot himself in the foot because he had Vegeta, Goku say Gohan was much stronger before, and during the Cell Arc, we have Piccolo being around the same level as Super Vegeta and Trunks.

So whatever the multiplier or transformation Toriyama indented, Gohan did not get any stronger in those 7 years, so Gohan never increased his Base powers by x10 or x20, x50.

And with the Cell Arc as it is, Gohan needed SS1 to surpass PC who is > Super Vegeta > Piccolo.



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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Piccolo doesn't have to be anywhere near 2nd ROSAT Vegeta.

What does Base Gohan have to do with any of this? Gohan made the notion of not using SSJ because he wanted to keep their appearances a secret, not about his confidence in winning without it.

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olliebalollie
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Father Brofist
Oct 29 2014, 10:15 PM
Piccolo doesn't have to be anywhere near 2nd ROSAT Vegeta.

What does Base Gohan have to do with any of this? Gohan made the notion of not using SSJ because he wanted to keep their appearances a secret, not about his confidence in winning without it.

ThePrince used that as evidence to suggest Gohan and Vegeta was confident in winning even without their SS transformations.



Vegeta's confidence in winning falls apart:


1. Vegeta was blinded by the truth about PC.
2. Vegeta got stomped by PC.
3. Vegeta realizes how powerful PC is and contemplates on what to do to surpass him.
4. After 2nd ROAST, Vegeta is usually in his over confident and cocky self, thinking he increased his powers enough to beat PC.
5. Vegeta thinks he can win against Piccolo, #18 and Gohan at base level.
6. Vegeta's remarks fall apart because just like after Cell stomps Vegeta, Vegeta doesn't learn and says he can win against PC at the Cell Games.


Also probability tells us that with enough data such as past history, you can calculate the chances of Vegeta being right in the present.

I rephrase my previous comment about Vegeta, the probability of Vegeta being correct is very slim.



Edited by olliebalollie, Oct 29 2014, 10:58 PM.


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olliebaba
Oct 29 2014, 10:25 PM
Father Brofist
Oct 29 2014, 10:15 PM
Piccolo doesn't have to be anywhere near 2nd ROSAT Vegeta.

What does Base Gohan have to do with any of this? Gohan made the notion of not using SSJ because he wanted to keep their appearances a secret, not about his confidence in winning without it.

ThePrince used that as evidence to suggest Gohan and Vegeta was confident in winning even without their SS transformations.



Vegeta's confidence in winning falls apart:


1. Vegeta was blinded by the truth about PC.
2. Vegeta got stomped by PC.
3. Vegeta realizes how powerful PC is and contemplates on what to do to surpass him.
4. After 2nd ROAST, Vegeta is usually in his over confident and cocky self, thinking he increased his powers enough to beat PC.
5. Vegeta thinks he can win against Piccolo, #18 and Gohan at base level.
6. Vegeta's remarks fall apart because just like after Cell stomps Vegeta, Vegeta doesn't learn and says he can win against PC at the Cell Games.


Also probability tells us that with enough data such as past history, you can calculate the chances of Vegeta being right in the present.

I rephrase my previous comment about Vegeta, the probability of Vegeta being correct is very slim.



1. So is 16. Vegeta isn't really blind as much as he is unable to see Cell's power, just like everyone else, aside form Kuririn.
2. Yup, he sure did.
3. Vegeta did surpass what he thought Cell's maximum most likely was. He thought he could do something Kakarotto couldn't, sooooooooooo.
4. He should considering he surpassed what he thought was Goku's maximum.
5. I don't see what this is getting at. We don't have proof one way or the other that he could beat either of them. We simply have an contradicted statement here.
6. Like I said, he has no reason not to believe he can win.
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The tournament's whole point was for introducing Kibito and Kaioshin, but the specific fight inside the tournament of the kids vs #18 was to hype up the kids strength to show how strong and relevant they are to the story despite barley being born.

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1. So is 16. Vegeta isn't really blind as much as he is unable to see Cell's power, just like everyone else, aside form Kuririn.
2. Yup, he sure did.
3. Vegeta did surpass what he thought Cell's maximum most likely was. He thought he could do something Kakarotto couldn't, sooooooooooo.
4. He should considering he surpassed what he thought was Goku's maximum.
5. I don't see what this is getting at. We don't have proof one way or the other that he could beat either of them. We simply have an contradicted statement here.
6. Like I said, he has no reason not to believe he can win.



1. Vegeta put all his effort into that super kick = no effect, Vegeta at the end got stomped. So Vegeta has no excuse in determining where his own power lies in comparison with Cell, he has 1st hand experience - he got knocked out. This ties together with 5.

3. I have no problem with Vegeta increasing his power, he trained hard and deserves his place, but for you or anyone to list what Vegeta said about his chances of winning as proof that Vegeta really has a chance of winning [Base Saiyans > Piccolo] without transformation, is a little far fetched. After all we know what Vegeta's personality is like. For Vegeta to be consider reliable, he firstly has to show he is reliable. Even in the Majin Boo Arc, he refuses to acknowledge Majin Boo's power [by saying him and Goku are too strong], where Goku straightaway detected something is odd = once again Vegeta is shown to be wrong.

4. But the fact is he was wrong. Actually painfully wrong. His power was only at Cell Jrs level. I love Vegeta, but Toriyama must of really dislike him during that period.

5. Vegeta is confident enough that he think he can win against Piccolo and #18 and Gohan. Like I've said in my previous posts, I know Vegeta trained hard and warrants the confidence, but the chances of winning against Piccolo [who is close to Cell Jrs] is pretty low, especially if it just from a statement. Vegetism.

I don't know what you're arguing about TPOS, your own power levels say that Base Saiyans are below Piccolo.

I'm arguing in the wrong thread, I should post this in Base Saiyans & Piccolo.


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The tournament's whole point was for introducing Kibito and Kaioshin, but the specific fight inside the tournament of the kids vs #18 was to hype up the kids strength to show how strong and relevant they are to the story despite barley being born.












Edited by olliebalollie, Oct 30 2014, 02:00 AM.


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olliebaba
Oct 30 2014, 01:26 AM
Quote:
 
1. So is 16. Vegeta isn't really blind as much as he is unable to see Cell's power, just like everyone else, aside form Kuririn.
2. Yup, he sure did.
3. Vegeta did surpass what he thought Cell's maximum most likely was. He thought he could do something Kakarotto couldn't, sooooooooooo.
4. He should considering he surpassed what he thought was Goku's maximum.
5. I don't see what this is getting at. We don't have proof one way or the other that he could beat either of them. We simply have an contradicted statement here.
6. Like I said, he has no reason not to believe he can win.



1. Vegeta put all his effort into that super kick = no effect, Vegeta at the end got stomped. So Vegeta has no excuse in determining where his own power lies in comparison with Cell, he has 1st hand experience - he got knocked out. This ties together with 5.

3. I have no problem with Vegeta increasing his power, he trained hard and deserves his place, but for you or anyone to list what Vegeta said about his chances of winning as proof that Vegeta really has a chance of winning [Base Saiyans > Piccolo] without transformation, is a little far fetched. After all we know what Vegeta's personality is like. For Vegeta to be consider reliable, he firstly has to show he is reliable. Even in the Majin Boo Arc, he refuses to acknowledge Majin Boo's power [by saying him and Goku are too strong], where Goku straightaway detected something is odd = once again Vegeta is shown to be wrong.

4. But the fact is he was wrong. Actually painfully wrong. His power was only at Cell Jrs level. I love Vegeta, but Toriyama must of really dislike him during that period.

5. Vegeta is confident enough that he think he can win against Piccolo and #18 and Gohan. Like I've said in my previous posts, I know Vegeta trained hard and warrants the confidence, but the chances of winning against Piccolo [who is close to Cell Jrs] is pretty low, especially if it just from a statement. Vegetism.

I don't know what you're arguing about TPOS, your own power levels say that Base Saiyans are below Piccolo.

I'm arguing in the wrong thread, I should post this in Base Saiyans & Piccolo.


Quote:
 
The tournament's whole point was for introducing Kibito and Kaioshin, but the specific fight inside the tournament of the kids vs #18 was to hype up the kids strength to show how strong and relevant they are to the story despite barley being born.












1. And Vegeta thought he was done for until he whipped out a Final Flash, which did kinda rip the side of his body off.
3. I don't see what this has to do with regards to my point 3, but Vegeta was wrong because he did not know how strong his opponents were in the cases you pointed out. The only time he's ever truly been in denial was when he thought he could beat Freeza's true form, and even then, that denial went right out the window when his Final Gyarikku Ho failed. You see, Vegeta has knowledge of how strong 18 and Piccolo should be. Even assuming Vegeta hasn't considered the fact that 18 got stronger, Vegeta should still be stronger than 18. The same applies to Piccolo.
4. So? He still thought he could beat the power he displayed against Trunks, which is all that mattered at this point. Vegeta didn't know how strong Cell really was, so again, this shouldn't factor into his arrogance.
5. How can we confirm that his chances are low? We don't know how powerful base Gohan was at the Cell Games. Piccolo being weaker than the base Saiyajins is just hard to work with. I haven't gotten around to fiddling with the idea yet.
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Fearless Saiyajin
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If you want to use Vegeta's confidence then we'll used Krilin as well since he thought he'll be survived.
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You can't kill anyone in the tournament unless you want to lose. And his friends won't exactly try to kill him.

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