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| Base Kids & No. 18; The Discussion Thread | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 7 2014, 09:23 PM (8,863 Views) | |
| olliebalollie | Oct 29 2014, 01:58 AM Post #91 |
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Why does people like to bring up "Vegeta was confident" in winning in his base form? Before Majin Boo Arc, Vegeta has the worst track record, and during Majin Boo Vegeta died, brought back to life and tortured again by Boo. The only time Vegeta was correct is when other people back him up [Piccolo and Goku]. |
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| EMIYA | Oct 29 2014, 02:27 AM Post #92 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Because Vegeta's remark about winning the tournament is not questioned not contradicted later on. There's no reason for him to say anything if its not true. This is the same argument people try to use when Boo states he can defeat a fusion of of Goku and Gohan or whatever and people say "No he can't Boo's just arrogant so that doesn't count." It doesn't work like that, when a person says something, we take it as fact until that statement is either proven wrong or contradicted and Vegeta's whole statement with winning the tournament in base is neither contradicted nor proven wrong later on. Toriayama wrote the line to indicate that Vegeta was confident in winning the tournament despite knowing that No. 18 and Piccolo would be entering. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Oct 29 2014, 02:34 AM Post #93 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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Their speed in a close range fight was compromised, but there's no reason for their flight speed to be compromised because that's completely unrelated. SSj Flight speed alone would've been enough to surprise her, and compensate for their inadequacy with fighting speed. They were interested in taking her out the quickest way possible, which was with an amplified blast (SSj level). Their inability to form a ki blast strong enough to take her out in base supports the argument that she was superior to them. |
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| Vertical | Oct 29 2014, 02:53 AM Post #94 |
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If their flight speed freedom is increased but their close-combat speed remains the same, that adds the option of taking hit-and-run/drive-by attacks, I suppose... but the required run-up would be predictable and avoidable (depending on how much of an advantage they actually held). Goku's KHH vs PIccolo during their TB battle suggests otherwise concerning amped attacks vs close powers. Vegeta's arrogance lowers the accuracy of his prediction skills... not his measuring skills. Every (maybe >_>) time Vegeta has been wrong about a person's strength, that person was either: a) hiding their power, b) had yet to gain their power (i.e. transform). And, anytime he's been wrong, he has been shown to be wrong, or implied to be... we can't just assume everything he says is incorrect because he's been incorrect in the past. |
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| TheACE | Oct 29 2014, 03:48 AM Post #95 |
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The Last GT Fighter
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True dat about Vegeta Vert. Talked to Pyrus about this the other day. But, in fairness, with his kinda s*** track record on measuring and estimating powers, it's really hard to believe that he's more than mildly accurate. |
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| EMIYA | Oct 29 2014, 04:04 AM Post #96 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Let me ask this, name one time when Vegeta thinks he's stronger than someone when they're actually showing that kind of power. For example, against Freeza why not? He could obviously see Freeza's movements when they were so fast everyone else couldn't. It wasn't until Freeza started picking the pace up that he got let behind. Against Cell, even No. 16 admits that Vegeta is superior in every way he's got no reason to be arrogant. Against Boo, even Gohan who Vegeta is superior too admits he could beat Fat Boo, its not until Fat Boo gets angry that he's proven wrong. So its not like Vegeta's wrong on those occasions, its just that there's more to the occasion than he realizes. |
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| TheACE | Oct 29 2014, 04:15 AM Post #97 |
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The Last GT Fighter
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So riddle me this. The reason power levels and scouters and what not we're introduced were to teach the lesson, don't judge a book by its cover. Villians would under estimate our heroes as a result and ultimately it lead to their downfall. Vegeta is the same way. Sure they didn't outright SHOW their power, but because Vegeta assumed as such and didn't take them seriously as a result he got his a*** whipped against: Goku rocking the Kaioken Zarbon Recoo- well I guess he was maxed out, so whatever Frieza Android 18 Perfect Cell Majin Buu The feats and the track record tell it all, no judging a book by its' cover. And it's Vegeta. He may not have a reason to be arrogant, but he is. He's an arrogant jerk. Like Goku is a sweet, pure hearted dimwit, and Gohan is a sweet, shy pure hearted guy. That's just who he is. It's kinda what makes the Vegeta character fun, whether he's winning or losing. He's smug and talks great trash when he wins and the beatings he endures when he gets knocked off his high horse are nothing short of art. |
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| + Pyrus | Oct 29 2014, 04:29 AM Post #98 |
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How was he supposed to know about Kaioken or that Goku had it in his arsenal?
I don't think he knew about Zarbon's ability to transform. He had no reason to suspect it either.
He had no choice but to fight Recoom. He couldn't escape. Was he ever a cocky bastard here? I can't recall the fight well.
I'm blaming this one on the euphoria of his latest zenkai and the fact that Freeza was hiding considerable power, beyond which Vegeta was aware of. He did call out Freeza on his shrimpiness (ironic), but still.
Power sensing, and in the case of Boo, he knew from the outset that he was likely going to lose but he wanted to at least take Boo with him. It isn't as cut and dry as Vegeta proclaiming something and then being shown up. There's always context to take into consideration. Merely looking at one's stats is exactly what the use of scouters showed us not to do. It's perfectly reasonable to read something Vegeta says and go, "Hm, I think I'll wait until I see what happens to believe this rotten f***er," because I've done it before, but if faced with the question of providing evidence to disprove him, that'd be one hell of a prosecution. Edited by Pyrus, Oct 29 2014, 04:32 AM.
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| TheACE | Oct 29 2014, 04:38 AM Post #99 |
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The Last GT Fighter
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Still makes for a lousy track record. Besides, second rule of fighting in general, you don't know what your opponent knows. You go into a fight knowing what you can do and that's it. Assuming that's enough gets you beaten. Don't underestimate period. |
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| EMIYA | Oct 29 2014, 04:52 AM Post #100 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Here's the thing though, Vegeta has fought 18, he knows her power. His statement is the equivalent of saying that his base power has surpassed his SSj power from back then. Even if he doesn't know anything about his opponent, doesn't he at least know about himself? |
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| TheACE | Oct 29 2014, 05:00 AM Post #101 |
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The Last GT Fighter
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Oh he certainly knows his own limits, that we can agree on. He just tends to under estimate his opponents. I mean he hasn't fought the woman in 7 years, how does he know she can't Fire nuclear weapons from her chest now? |
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| + Kyouks | Oct 29 2014, 05:06 AM Post #102 |
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Does it matter? Let's say that was the case; then Vegeta would be wrong due to lack of foreknowledge (as anyone else would be). But it's not the case, so why bring it up? |
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| olliebalollie | Oct 29 2014, 05:10 AM Post #103 |
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*the bold parts are important* First off, Toriyama wrote the line that said Kuririn was one of the best at detecting ki during the Cell Arc, right? During the Majin Boo Arc, Kuririn sounded like he was relived that the Saiyans were not using their transformations. I think he said something along the lines of "I might have a chance of winning some money". And that's including Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and #18, Goku, Goten and Trunks because it wasn't until they arrived they found the tournament the rules have changed. ^ Was that meant to be a joke? Are we meant to take that at face value or should we include the context? Anyway back to my point about Vegeta, in my opinion, I think the difference between Bootenks, Boohan and Vegeta is that Vegeta really believed he was the next Super Saiyan, but he was proven wrong by Freeza toying with him and kicking his energy blast with a simple kick. That along with many other examples shows Vegeta not only having the worst statistics, but simply being wrong about lot of things (him being a super saiyan, his superiority against Perfect Cell, him thinking he could win against Perfect Cell after roast, etc....). There is a difference between someone acting arrogant and someone being wrong. In the court of law, Vegeta would be classified as unreliable witness. Can someone please show me a scan or from Herms Checker that has Trunks or Goten saying they can beat / win or rivals #18? I don't care about the guidebook. I'm a little rusty with the manga, but if my memory serves me correct, the only direct evidence or comparison that was made between #18 and the kids was from Trunks saying something along the lines of Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.3 Trunks: “Don’t let your guard down, Goten…I heard that Kuririn’s wife was stronger than our papas a long time ago…” Goten: “Ye-yeah, I know…!” Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7 Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume No.18: …He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong… Context: they become Super Saiyans No.18: !! Trunks: Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon! Goten: Eh! But will she be alright?... Trunks: Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18 Let me give you an example of what I mean; 1. Future timeline #17 told Future Gohan they haven't used half of their powers. 2. SS1 Vegeta get's humiliated by #18, but after ROAST, Vegeta destroys Semi-Perfect Cell (whom easily destroyed Piccolo, #17 and #18). Also to top things off, #16 said Vegeta is stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. So conclusion, there was no need for Toriyama to have #18 and Vegeta fight again. Until there is direct evidence, to me that fight means nothing sufficient because; 1. #18 promised Kuririn that she won't kill anybody. Plus she really wants to win, killing will result in DQ. The main event is #18 and Mr. Satan. That should tell you the tournament was meant for a connection hub to allow for the next chapters = Kaioshins, Dabra, etc... 2. The fight between #18 and the kids mean nothing. Why? If it does, please tell me what the fight suppose to demonstrate? Let's not forget that within the context, the fight between #18 and the kids was set during the time Dabra was getting prepared to fight Gohan. 3. Kaioshin is unreliable and scared and contradicts himself. 4. Dabra and Babadai contradict themselves before sensing the Saiyans energy and after finding out there are powerful. = the whole arc is full plot holes and contradictions, so unless there is direct evidence to follow, we'll just be circling around in circles. |
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Oct 29 2014, 05:23 AM Post #104 |
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I think 18 > Kids due to the fact that she is an adult (thus, her name 18) and therefore, she is wiser and also if an adult cannot beat up kids, they are really, really weak (Like, Yamcha level) |
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| EMIYA | Oct 29 2014, 05:34 AM Post #105 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Whether or not No. 18 got stronger doesn't really matter. Unless Vegeta believes 18 is weaker than she was int he past, he should expect her to be as strong as she was when he first fought her, at the least. He know show well his fight with her went last time and he knows that his base form is weaker than his SSJ android arc power, he can't win. If he's weaker than that there's no point in gloating. And the scene takes it seriously. Even after saying this No. 18 nor Piccolo make any remarks about Vegeta being wrong. No. 18 could easily have stepped up and said "If you believe that" or even Piccolo could've said it. But they keep their mouths shut and the series never treats it like Vegeta is wrong. --- --- Krillins remarks about winning, if he said anything are contradicted by information before and after. Vegeta's remarks are not.
Nobody knew what the SSJ legend was like. People thought it just meant an overwhelmingly powerful Saiyan and Vegeta was just that. There was no designation of the actual legend was until Goku achieved it. He was superior to Perfect Cell, even No. 16 admits that. Cell just happened to be holding back at the time? Sure there's no reason to think he couldn't win after the ROSAT. All he has to do is believe he's more powerful than Goku at the lookout where he doesn't realize that was only half of Goku's power. Vegeta was never wrong on any of these except for the Super Saiyan and even then he wasn't the only one and in some cases others actually support his superiority. You can't ignore feats shown int he manga. The feats show that No. 18 and the kids were rivaling with the overall advantage certainly given to No. 18 at the time. The guidebooks claims they are on par with each other. Which is supported by what we see. In the end, the kids in their base form are fighting relatively on par with No. 18, give the adavantage to No. 18 overall at the time. There's no indicating she's holding back at all and so we must infer that she' staking the fight seriously.
Fighting seriously doesn't mean you have to kill someone. No. 18 looked pretty serious in that fight. And unlike No. 18, she didn't have to worry about things like her clothes getting in the way or Goten being dead weight. Doesn't mean anything? Conjecture much, it seems to show that the Base Kids in a restrictive outfit can fight fairly well with No. 18. What does Kaioshin have to do with this? Same with Babidi and Dabura? Again if a statement is contradicted that's one thing. Vegeta's remark on his base form or the battle with the kids and No. 18 isn't contradicted. |
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