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Base Kids & No. 18; The Discussion Thread
Topic Started: Jun 7 2014, 09:23 PM (8,865 Views)
+ Yusuke
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Don't really see how you can make an argument for supersession when theirs absolutely nothing that supports it while theirs evidence to show that the Base Kids were right up there with #18 in terms of power.

Just Saiyan, it just seems like a very bad argument to make.
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

I'll believe what I want to make my numbers work. Nothing contradicted.
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+ Yusuke
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Okay, i'm just saying their isn't anything to support the idea of suppression.

Not going to throttle you for it.
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Except tournament rules.
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Master Troll

Shouldn't you make the numbers work around the story, not vice versa?
Miles for mod
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Izanagi!

If we go down the suppression route, we have no idea how powerful the kids are. If we go with #18 not suppressing, we have a clear figure.
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Hurry My Curry
Sep 6 2014, 05:34 PM
Shouldn't you make the numbers work around the story, not vice versa?
I am, after my beliefs.
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+ Clearin
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I always went with the idea #18 wasn't suppressing, and base kids are slightly stronger than her, but honestly both options are illogical imo.
If she held back we're required to believe she happened to know exactly how much to hold back right off the bat. #18 can't sense powers so the fact she happened to use exactly enough power that is both too low to make the fight one sided, but high enough to make Trunks block all her hits and show a slight upper hand, is just unbelievable. Especially since she used this power right off the bat without having to test Mighty Mask, if she used too low an amount they'd have been able to tank her hit and strike back easily.

If she didn't hold back we're required to believe she was about to go all out on an opponent who she thought was just a regular human. Technically her suppressing also has this problem, since suppressing to Trunks' level is still way too much agaisnt what she thought was a regular human.

The only way I see this working is: #18 used slightly above regular human power offensively, but Trunks, not knowing how much she was going to use, felt it safe to block the hits anyway, then she uses her full defensive abilities to block all of his hits. She'll slowly start raising her power to better match Mighty Masks power, all while blocking his hits easily and her punches being slow and weak enough for Trunks to block, until evenutally using enough power to strike Trunks, at which point she likely would have continued using that much, or slightly more, to knock him out of bounds but he transformed.
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Emmeth
Sep 6 2014, 05:17 PM
I'll believe what I want to make my numbers work. Nothing contradicted.
Seems like you're putting your numbers first.
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Sep 6 2014, 05:41 PM
Emmeth
Sep 6 2014, 05:17 PM
I'll believe what I want to make my numbers work. Nothing contradicted.
Seems like you're putting your numbers first.
As long as I'm not bothering you...
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If it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Sep 6 2014, 03:51 PM
Oooooh. I just noticed something interesting:
Quote:
 
At the Youth Division of the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, he defeated Goten and won the championship. He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise. He passed through the finals at the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai, but the tournament's final results are unknown.

I can buy the argument for suppression if this little tidbit were to say that Goten and Trunks were fighting on par with No. 18, but the word strength would imply they were around as strong as her.
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Kidding, anyway, yes, I agree.
Naked Snake
Sep 6 2014, 05:35 PM
If we go down the suppression route, we have no idea how powerful the kids are. If we go with #18 not suppressing, we have a clear figure.
You said it wrong, Miles! I always liked it more when you said, "how much power is #18 using, *insert name*? Is it 16.7742%?"
---
Fine, you wanna make #18 suppressed? Lemme what people have to say about this...

She dodges the blast from the kids...I am not sure of the exact translation, but they seem to say something like "oh I missed," "k, do it better next time dumfak." Speaking in very general terms (because s*** like Piccolo blocking Goku's presumably 2.22x amplified KHH makes the subject of chi blasts' nature weird), they expected the blast to be > her "ability" (but not by too much, because they want her alive), but it actually turned out to be more around ~ her "ability," meaning her actual "ability" ~ the blast > her "ability" which the boys based her power off of (i.e., her "ability" when she actually fought the boys).

Sadly, you can't have her suppressing all that much with that line of thinking, because a) I don't think Trunks is trying to shoot a blast that's like twice her level or something, b) There's really no reason she can't up her effort at some point during the fight to knock the kids out...should have at least done this when she knocked them into the ring, c) She's still like :O omg at the blast. So, this might not make all that big of a difference anyway.

Thoughts pl0x, let's see who can rip this apart first.
Edited by Kyouks, Sep 7 2014, 01:20 AM.
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olliebalollie
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I don't really have an argument against Base Saiyans being above #18, but I do question the authors intentions.

What I mean by that is simple, what was the authors purpose? Was he trying to make an important point? Or was this one of the times it didn't matter because the main point of this entire tournament is to introduce the Kaioshins and allow energy to be taken from the Saiyans to set free Majin Boo?

In my opinion, I don't really see the necessary need to believe (like it was Gospel) what Vegeta said during the event that they believe they can win.

Why?

From a mathematics perspective, Vegeta is one the most unreliable and has the worst track record.

1. He claims his the next the Super Saiyan = Goku was the legendary Super Saiyan.
2. He thinks he can beat Freeza and allows him to transform into his final form = Freeza destroys him and makes him his/her's *itch.
3. He think he can take on #18 and #17 = #18 humiliates Vegeta in front of the entire Z-Fighters.
4. Once he ascended past the Super Saiyan barrier, he think he is still superior to Perfect Cell and allows Cell to absorb #18 = Perfect Cell destroys Vegeta and forces him to say "who is your daddy".
5. After getting humiliated by Perfect Cell, Vegeta is confidant in taking on PC after two trips to the ROAST.
6. The only thing Vegeta got right was he admitted Goku and Gohan was > Vegeta.

incorrect = 5/6 = 83% failure rate.
correct = 1/6 = 16.68% success rate.


Before I continue I would like to this really clear, direct evidence and indirect evidence.


Indirect evidence:

1. Trunks & Goten > #18 due to their fight at the tournament.
2. Majin Vegeta > Dabra due to Gohan's poor performances and the question still remains, if Gohan was SS1 or SS2 against Dabra.
3. etc..... continue later


Direct evidence:

1. SS2 Goku & SS2 Majin Vegeta > SS2 Kid Gohan > SS2 Teen Gohan due to fact this is supported by Vegeta, Goku and Piccolo. Three main stars claiming this means this is in fact what Toriyama wanted because he invested more time in trying to convey his message across.

2. SS2 Goku & SS2 Majin Vegeta are equal due to Goku saying it and the fight itself confirms it.

3. etc... continue later.



The reason I want to make this clear is because, as an author [Toriyama] may be caught up when trying to tell a story. This may lead to unusual feats or bloated characters. This is why I like to follow direct evidence.

To be continued later...
Edited by olliebalollie, Oct 8 2014, 03:37 AM.


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supersaiyangodpowers
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@ ^

Seriously, why bother with direct evidence? Dragonball is fast-paced action/comedy.



I'm not advertising another forum, I'm posting this link because I think people over there have answered this question.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25243&start=140

Check it out.

Son Gohan and helV are good debaters
Edited by supersaiyangodpowers, Oct 17 2014, 01:35 AM.
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+ Yusuke
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supersaiyangodpowers
Oct 17 2014, 01:34 AM
@ ^

Seriously, why bother with direct evidence? Dragonball is fast-paced action/comedy.



I'm not advertising another forum, I'm posting this link because I think people over there have answered this question.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25243&start=140

Check it out.

Son Gohan and helV are good debaters
Why bother with direct evidence? Are you saying evidence has to be thrown away if it doesn't support your viewpoint? That sounds rather biased to me.

Kanz is primarily a pro Freeza > Base Saiyans site, DBZF is not (not dissing anyone just so everyone knows). Posting something from there is going to mean all that much.
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