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Base Kids & No. 18; The Discussion Thread
Topic Started: Jun 7 2014, 09:23 PM (8,868 Views)
Saberoph
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I think Post Zeta Sword Gohan is a very strong argument against that.

But, he is the only non fused SS I have above Full Power Perfect Cell.

During the Mighty Mask fight No. 18 was shown to be struggling and was sweating a lot too. As a matter of fact, she couldn't hurt the kids, and they were restricted by the costume. Also, No. 18 was fighting a very disorganized Trunks arms and Goten's legs, they had horrible timing and their performance was horrible due to the costume.

The kids held her off pretty good considering how restricted they were. And then when they went SS, it was all over for No. 18.
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

^They didn't fight her as Super Saiyans (other than the blast) in the manga. In the anime, they began fighting her after they transformed, and then the announcer yelled at them, so they had to stop.
Cherry
Jun 11 2014, 09:30 PM
No way that a buu saga super saiyan adult or not is stronger than full power perfect cell
I definitely didn't mean SPC with that. Just regular Perfect Cell.

SPC is definitely on the next tier up, closer to Boo Arc Super Saiyans, but probably on the higher end toward the next tier.

The problem with your argument is that Boo Arc Base Saiyans are suggested to be stronger than Piccolo, of whom we know was likely stronger than himself during the Cell arc considering that (knowing him), he'd probably spent that seven years training.

Not to mention he'd spent time training for the TB.
Base Saiyans are probably around Super Vegeta or Perfect Cell, with Piccolo being on the lower end of that tier, and the Saiyans being on the higher end.
Base kids are probably Android Arc Super Saiyan tier, which if you look at the context of Boo era powers, is pretty darn close in power. And with 18 being disorganized in her fighting ability, would make them a challenge for her.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jun 11 2014, 10:29 PM.
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sekzee
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SSJ Goku ~ SSJ Vegeta (Majin) > SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Gohan > Kaioshin > Piccolo > SSJ Trunks ~> SSJ Goten > 18 > Goku ~ Vegeta (Majin) > Vegeta > Gohan > Trunks ~> Goten
Edited by sekzee, Jun 11 2014, 10:34 PM.
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Saberoph
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I know that Assassin, I was meaning when they fired their Ki blast at her... her expression tells it all.

@Sekzee: Any physical proof for them being that low.

After all that is what this debate is about isn't it? Having the physical proof that either Base Goten and Trunks are either stronger or weaker than No. 18.

Also, I would like to add that Gohan is stronger than No. 18 and Goten and Gohan trained for the Budokai, and Gohan was Trained to NEVER go easy on anyone. Saying he went easy on Goten is taking him out of character.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 11 2014, 10:41 PM.
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sekzee
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When did Gohan get told that? By Piccolo? Versus an enemy?
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Saberoph
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In the Manga Piccolo Never went easy on Gohan, and neither did his father.

Unless you have a scan of them telling Gohan to go easy on everyone...

Also, if Piccolo and Kakarrot had went easy on Gohan, he wouldn't have turned out as powerful as he was against the Saiyans and against Cell.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 11 2014, 10:57 PM.
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sekzee
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What does any of that have to do with Gohan and Goten?
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Saberoph
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Gohan and Goten trained for the Budokai and the only logical for Gohan to train his brother would be the way he's been trained. And Gohan was trained to be pushed to his very limit and become as strong as possible.

So, if you place Boo arc Base Gohan above No. 18, you would have to do the same with Goten and Trunks, because Gohan and Goten were nearly even before Gohan trained him. Also, Trunks was trained by someone who is a complete hardass that wouldn't hesitate to kill someone if he wanted to.
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

I can't ever see Gohan going all-out on Goten unless he actually felt like he had to. He certainly didn't push Videl or Goten when he trained them both in ki.

Gohan is much more restrained than Goku or Piccolo are. The only time he was malicious to anyone was when he was fighting Cell, and that was a result of SSj2 and his rage.
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sekzee
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And Gohan was soon full of regret after giving into his rage.

Also, I don't believe Gohan is stronger than 18 in base.

As a matter of fact, I do not believe the kids even match 50% of Gohan's power. Goku never reacts even after they display their full SSJ power, and the kids are actually surprised by that.

Goku: 10
Vegeta: 7
Gohan: 5
Trunks: 2
Goten: 1.8-1.9
Edited by sekzee, Jun 11 2014, 11:29 PM.
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Saberoph
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That defies the point of his training.

As for Videl, Gohan would have to make an exception with her, or he'd kill her instantly.

As for Goten, it takes Gohan out of the character he was molded into for him to hold back against Goten.

As for Goten and Trunks at the Budokai... all they did was Transform, later at the Lookout they Transform and then power up and Kakarrot is surprised at how powerful they are... which tells me they weren't at 100% at the Budokai.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 11 2014, 11:35 PM.
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Master Saberoph
Jun 11 2014, 11:30 PM
As for Goten and Trunks at the Budokai... all they did was Transform, later at the Lookout they Transform and then power up and Kakarrot is surprised at how powerful they are... which tells me they weren't at 100% at the Budokai.
Piccolo was surprised... Goku couldn't care less (I actually think he asks something like "Is that it?")

So while your point remains that for him to be surprised they must not have displayed full power at the Budokai, I thought it was important to point out that it was Piccolo, not Goku who reacted.
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Saberoph
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True, I got that instance mixed up with something else, thanks.

The point still stands that Goten and Trunks powered up at the Lookout where they didn't during their fight with each other or with No. 18.
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sekzee
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I was specifically referring to when Goku asks them to power up at the Lookout.
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Saberoph
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He only comments on Trunks being stronger... not by a lot, but by much I believe.

However, that still doesn't take away from the fact that before the Budokai Goten was almost even with Gohan and he had to fly to get away from Goten. Also, during the later panels we see of Goten and Gohan, they're aura's are going all out and both of them are sweating too.
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