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Base Kids & No. 18; The Discussion Thread
Topic Started: Jun 7 2014, 09:23 PM (8,858 Views)
SSJ
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Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:53 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:52 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:50 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:48 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:46 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:44 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:41 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:34 AM
He should know his own battle power...
Why? Not once during the course of the first half of the Boo Arc does he indicate how weak he has become. He doesn't seem to realize.
Because not once does he show surprise at the fact that he is so pitifully weak.
Isn't that what I just said? :p
I misunderstood. We are not on the same page here. If Gohan got so much weaker that he's being laughed at by Vegeta, he should know how weak he has become. That Vegeta was still weaker than CG Gohan, so I'm pretty sure Gohan knew where he was at. The comments from Vegeta didn't seem to bother him at all, so he definitely knew how weak he was going into it.
"Hmm, Vegeta is a cocky old bastard, so there's no reason for me to take what he says seriously. Besides, he doesn't know what I've been up to."

- The Delusional Mind of Gohan
So he ignores Goku's claim as well?
What claim? That Goku says "he really has been slacking off"? Gohan was nowhere near to hear that.
When Goku talks to them from Otherworld he confirms that he has gotten stronger and has been training.
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:54 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:53 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:52 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:50 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:48 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:46 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:44 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:41 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:34 AM
He should know his own battle power...
Why? Not once during the course of the first half of the Boo Arc does he indicate how weak he has become. He doesn't seem to realize.
Because not once does he show surprise at the fact that he is so pitifully weak.
Isn't that what I just said? :p
I misunderstood. We are not on the same page here. If Gohan got so much weaker that he's being laughed at by Vegeta, he should know how weak he has become. That Vegeta was still weaker than CG Gohan, so I'm pretty sure Gohan knew where he was at. The comments from Vegeta didn't seem to bother him at all, so he definitely knew how weak he was going into it.
"Hmm, Vegeta is a cocky old bastard, so there's no reason for me to take what he says seriously. Besides, he doesn't know what I've been up to."

- The Delusional Mind of Gohan
So he ignores Goku's claim as well?
What claim? That Goku says "he really has been slacking off"? Gohan was nowhere near to hear that.
When Goku talks to them from Otherworld he confirms that he has gotten stronger and has been training.
What does that have to do with Gohan's strength?
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SSJ
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Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:55 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:54 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:53 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:52 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:50 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:48 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:46 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:44 AM
Dr. Zoidberg
Nov 7 2014, 01:41 AM
Super Saiyan
Nov 7 2014, 01:34 AM
He should know his own battle power...
Why? Not once during the course of the first half of the Boo Arc does he indicate how weak he has become. He doesn't seem to realize.
Because not once does he show surprise at the fact that he is so pitifully weak.
Isn't that what I just said? :p
I misunderstood. We are not on the same page here. If Gohan got so much weaker that he's being laughed at by Vegeta, he should know how weak he has become. That Vegeta was still weaker than CG Gohan, so I'm pretty sure Gohan knew where he was at. The comments from Vegeta didn't seem to bother him at all, so he definitely knew how weak he was going into it.
"Hmm, Vegeta is a cocky old bastard, so there's no reason for me to take what he says seriously. Besides, he doesn't know what I've been up to."

- The Delusional Mind of Gohan
So he ignores Goku's claim as well?
What claim? That Goku says "he really has been slacking off"? Gohan was nowhere near to hear that.
When Goku talks to them from Otherworld he confirms that he has gotten stronger and has been training.
What does that have to do with Gohan's strength?
It tells us that Goku is stronger than he was 7 years ago. Vegeta says "things are getting interesting now" after Goku says this. Then he questions Gohan about the gap between their powers now, and Gohan doesn't deny that he's gotten weaker over the seven years. Then when he's talking with Chi Chi he shows that he doesn't think it's going to be easy to win.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Goku - "You're up next, Gohan. You been training?"
Gohan - "Uhh..."
Vegeta - "He took peace as an excuse to slack off. We're stronger than he is now."

That was before he fought Dabra.
Edited by Yu Narukami, Nov 7 2014, 02:01 AM.
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SSJ
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Yeah, how the hell could I forget that. Gohan transformed twice at the Budokai, to which everyone saw how much weaker he had become. Then further into the arc, there are two comparisons made to Kid Gohan's power. So tell me, why does everyone but Gohan remember how strong he was 7 years ago? You'd think he'd know after going Super Saiyan multiple times in the arc. He does it prior to going to school for the first time, he should've known it then.

Now for my real point about Goku's statement, the point I wanted to make. Gohan gets weaker as we know, he's now comparable to Cell Games Goku. Goku says he's gotten a lot stronger, so why is a Gohan confident? He says he needs to get back into shape. The only explanation there is for that quote is that he needs to get his power back. There is no indication of his stamina decreasing, which doesn't seem to happen with strong fighters. Look at Freeza. He very rarely fought anyone, but his stamina in each of his forms seemed perfectly normal. The same should go for Gohan, there's no reason to believe that quote had anything to do with endurance/stamina. It was relating to his power level.

And it's funny how he only says he needs to get back into shape once he's learned that Goku and Vegeta have become a lot stronger, it's obvious he knows that he's the weak link now.
Edited by SSJ, Nov 7 2014, 02:07 AM.
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+ Pyrus
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Alright, looks like you've clearly won this round, SSJ2. I can't do anything more. :(
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Saberoph
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Gohan should have gone in the ROSAT with Goten, besides Goten would have still had one whole extra day after that and Gohan didn't even use a full day the last time either... since Goten was very close to him, it would make sense and it would almost be a Kakarrot and Gohan thing all over again, but this time both can access SS with ease.

Right now I have Pre Majin Vegeta above Gohan, but not by a huge amount... given Vegeta's skills and years of fighting experience over Gohan, even if they were equal or if Vegeta was just barely weaker, Vegeta would still win against Gohan, the same with Kakarrot too.

Now, I don't believe Gohan got as weak as his father during the Cell Games, but I do believe Gohan did lose anywhere between 10-15% of his power, and by DBZ standards that's a lot.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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The Daizenshuu 2 would imply that base Gohan's power didn't change at all since he was a kid:
Quote:
 
Son Gohan: High School Student]Many years after the battle with Cell, Gohan had become a high school student. Due to either Chi Chi's influence or him neglecting to train, his strength hadn't changed since he was a boy.

The Daizenshuu 2 then goes on to say SSJ2 Gohan's power isn't the same because he's slacked off and isn't drawing on his anger:
Quote:
 
Son Gohan: Super Saiyan 2(High School Era)]During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Vegeta even says this in the manga:
Strength Checker
 
Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: "Gohan, it's your turn next, but have you trained properly?"
Vegeta: "Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn't do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now...Though I suppose there's no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy... "
Kaioshin: "S-so that's why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily..."

This would imply anger is the causation of Gohan's power decrease. Even this line can be reasoned:
Strength Checker
 
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: "Magic, huh? [Dabra]'s way stronger than I thought, ain't he?"
Vegeta: "Hmph...Even so, he's not an opponent [he? we?] can't win against. [Gohan]'s so pathetic...So much so that he was stronger as a brat..."
Goku: "He really did slack off!"

Vegeta could easily be referring to Gohan in a general sense, not necessarily that his battle power while fighting Dabura is inferior to SSJFP battle power while fighting Perfect Cell. Besides, Emmeth brings up a good point. Gohan doesn't seem to realize that his power has diminished. So for me personally, I choose to accept that Gohan's battle power hadn't really changed all that much, if at all. He's simply rusty and lacks anger to make his SSJ2 self as strong as he he was back then.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Nov 8 2014, 05:15 PM.
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myst1c
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Nov 8 2014, 05:14 PM
The Daizenshuu 2 would imply that base Gohan's power didn't change at all since he was a kid:
Quote:
 
Son Gohan: High School Student]Many years after the battle with Cell, Gohan had become a high school student. Due to either Chi Chi's influence or him neglecting to train, his strength hadn't changed since he was a boy.

The Daizenshuu 2 then goes on to say SSJ2 Gohan's power isn't the same because he's slacked off and isn't drawing on his anger:
Quote:
 
Son Gohan: Super Saiyan 2(High School Era)]During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Vegeta even says this in the manga:
Strength Checker
 
Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: "Gohan, it's your turn next, but have you trained properly?"
Vegeta: "Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn't do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now...Though I suppose there's no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy... "
Kaioshin: "S-so that's why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily..."

This would imply anger is the causation of Gohan's power decrease. Even this line can be reasoned:
Strength Checker
 
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: "Magic, huh? [Dabra]'s way stronger than I thought, ain't he?"
Vegeta: "Hmph...Even so, he's not an opponent [he? we?] can't win against. [Gohan]'s so pathetic...So much so that he was stronger as a brat..."
Goku: "He really did slack off!"

Vegeta could easily be referring to Gohan in a general sense, not necessarily that his battle power while fighting Dabura is inferior to SSJFP battle power while fighting Perfect Cell. Besides, Emmeth brings up a good point. Gohan doesn't seem to realize that his power has diminished. So for me personally, I choose to accept that Gohan's battle power hadn't really changed all that much, if at all. He's simply rusty and lacks anger to make his SSJ2 self as strong as he he was back then.
This is the most logical answer and it's heavily implied within the manga.
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* Yu Narukami
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Gohan realised that he'd gotten weaker. His reaction when Vegeta calls him out on it in Babidi's ship is proof of that.
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Saberoph
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Vegeta also states this at the Budokai doesn't he?
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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FutureProtagonist
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Majin Vegeta's BP is barely greater than Gohan's BP as a kid. If Vegeta had already surpassed Kid Gohan, you'd think the difference would be greater.

Evidence supporting a weaker Gohan directly


Both of those quotes are pretty damning towards poor Gohan. One might be inclined to argue that Gohan's skill and instinct decreased, rather than his power, but the first quote is from the Budokai. Vegeta hasn't seen him fight yet. Even so, he judges Gohan to be a lot weaker than he was as a kid.
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