Gogetto

Jun 7 2014, 06:19 PM

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 06:13 PM

Gogetto

Jun 7 2014, 06:07 PM

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 05:54 PM

Gogetto

Jun 7 2014, 05:49 PM

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 05:41 PM

-This would be fine until...He says a fusion can't beat Beerus. Goku's ALWAYS made power judgements with what he can feel or has felt. And if SSJ3 Vegetto didn't exist at all how in the world is he going to make an accurate power judgement? This isn't a matter anymore of me being out of context, this is a matter of what you're saying is going against Goku's character. I'll ask once more, how is it Goku is not taking into account SSJ3 Vegetto when he says Baby Vegeta is the biggest ki he's ever sensed, yet when he's saying fusion is ineffective then he's taking into account SSJ3 Vegetto, implying he's had to sense SSJ3 Vegetto at one point?

Well, I'll explain again more clearly:

Context against Baby : Goku compares the power of Baby with those he has ever felt before.

Context against Bills : Goku made a power estimate.

You do not see that the contexts are different ? In the first context, he speaks of the powers that have already existed. That of SSJ3 Vegeto has NEVER existed ! In the latter context, a comparison with the power of Vegito and the Bills. Here we can imagine he's talking about SSJ3 Vegeto.

I'd be fine with your different contexts argument if it didn't involve implications of Goku sensing SSJ3 Vegetto when making a statement that Fusion would be ineffective against Beerus. Goku makes power judgements based on what he's felt right? Logic and Goku's Character would dictate that he's making a statement that SSJ3 Vegetto would stand no chance because he's felt his power. I don't see why we suddenly throw that out in Baby Vegeta's case. It seems more like you're taking things for what they mean literally without taking into account Goku's character and his past when making power judgements.

You don't have to respond if you don't want to.

But u'd make me sad

Goku's character would imply that he's sensed SSJ3 Vegetto beforehand before making his statement about Beerus being superior to Vegetto.

There, you also made ​​an assumption. Furthermore, your assumption does not hold: why they would merge to take the risk of staying Vegeto forever while they are in time of peace ?

Atleast my assumption has Goku's past and his character to support it and atleast says that Goku can sense himself. Yours relies on saying that 1.) Goku ignores his entire past methods of power judgements and 2.) Can't sense himself.

...Just saying...And what does them fusing again have to do with this? They've already been Vegetto so they know his power already. And you know...Birusu...God of Destruction...wants to destroy everyone...I think if there were any reason to use fusion...then would be a great chance seeing as how it was no longer a time of piece during the fight.

Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Jun 7 2014, 06:27 PM.

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 06:23 PM

Atleast my assumption has Goku's past and his character to support it and atleast says that Goku can sense himself. Yours relies on saying that 1.) Goku ignores his entire past methods of power judgements and 2.) Can't sense himself.

...Just saying...And what does them fusing again have to do with this? They've already been Vegetto so they know his power already.

Gogetto

Jun 7 2014, 06:31 PM

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 06:23 PM

Atleast my assumption has Goku's past and his character to support it and atleast says that Goku can sense himself. Yours relies on saying that 1.) Goku ignores his entire past methods of power judgements and 2.) Can't sense himself.

...Just saying...And what does them fusing again have to do with this? They've already been Vegetto so they know his power already.

What "past" ? You're gonna tell me he already felt SSJ3 Vegeto ? No, he never did.

What I said was that for Bills, it is based on the power of SSJ3 and the power of Vegito for deduce the power of SSJ3 Vegito.

For example, to say that SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu, he is based on the power of SSJ Kids and the power of fusion dance.

So I do not see how my argument is inconsistent. The holds is against because he never take the risk to remain Vegeto forever while they are in time of peace. So I do not see how my assumption is inconsistent. Yours is inconsistent because Goku would never take the risk of staying Vegeto forever while they are in time of peace.

EDIT : Yusuke was faster than me !

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 06:38 PM

Gogetto

Jun 7 2014, 06:31 PM

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 06:23 PM

Atleast my assumption has Goku's past and his character to support it and atleast says that Goku can sense himself. Yours relies on saying that 1.) Goku ignores his entire past methods of power judgements and 2.) Can't sense himself.

...Just saying...And what does them fusing again have to do with this? They've already been Vegetto so they know his power already.

What "past" ? You're gonna tell me he already felt SSJ3 Vegeto ? No, he never did.

What I said was that for Bills, it is based on the power of SSJ3 and the power of Vegito for deduce the power of SSJ3 Vegito.

For example, to say that SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu, he is based on the power of SSJ Kids and the power of fusion dance.

So I do not see how my argument is inconsistent. The holds is against because he never take the risk to remain Vegeto forever while they are in time of peace. So I do not see how my assumption is inconsistent. Yours is inconsistent because Goku would never take the risk of staying Vegeto forever while they are in time of peace.

EDIT : Yusuke was faster than me !

*Shakes head and sighs*

Listen, Goku ALWAYS has used what he has sensed in order to make power judgements. He specifically states that Fusion would not be enough to take on Beerus right? Logic would dictate he's had to sense Vegetto in order to make such a claim right? I'm not saying his statement is false, I'm saying if you're going to say that he's taking into account SSJ3 Vegetto when he's most likely sensed him given his past methods of making Power Judgements, then you can't be blind and say he didn't do that for Super Baby Vegeta. But you keep on saying he's only estimating when he WAS Vegetto and remember HIS power. Then saying HE can't sense HIMSELF. That's what I'm arguing against.

And this has nothing to do with current Vegetto, I'm talking about the Vegetto we HAVE ALREADY SEEN. When you say people that can sense their fusion selves can't sense their fusion full power you're saying VEGETTO CAN'T SENSE HIMSELF.

Gogetto

Jun 7 2014, 06:42 PM

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 06:38 PM

Gogetto

Jun 7 2014, 06:31 PM

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 06:23 PM

Atleast my assumption has Goku's past and his character to support it and atleast says that Goku can sense himself. Yours relies on saying that 1.) Goku ignores his entire past methods of power judgements and 2.) Can't sense himself.

...Just saying...And what does them fusing again have to do with this? They've already been Vegetto so they know his power already.

What "past" ? You're gonna tell me he already felt SSJ3 Vegeto ? No, he never did.

What I said was that for Bills, it is based on the power of SSJ3 and the power of Vegito for deduce the power of SSJ3 Vegito.

For example, to say that SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu, he is based on the power of SSJ Kids and the power of fusion dance.

So I do not see how my argument is inconsistent. The holds is against because he never take the risk to remain Vegeto forever while they are in time of peace. So I do not see how my assumption is inconsistent. Yours is inconsistent because Goku would never take the risk of staying Vegeto forever while they are in time of peace.

EDIT : Yusuke was faster than me !

*Shakes head and sighs*

Listen, Goku ALWAYS has used what he has sensed in order to make power judgements. He specifically states that Fusion would not be enough to take on Beerus right? Logic would dictate he's had to sense Vegetto in order to make such a claim right? I'm not saying his statement is false, I'm saying if you're going to say that he's taking into account SSJ3 Vegetto when he's most likely sensed him given his past methods of making Power Judgements, then you can't be blind and say he didn't do that for Super Baby Vegeta. But you keep on saying he's only estimating when he WAS Vegetto and remember HIS power. Then saying HE can't sense HIMSELF. That's what I'm arguing against.

And this has nothing to do with current Vegetto, I'm talking about the Vegetto we HAVE ALREADY SEEN. When you say people that can sense their fusion selves can't sense their fusion full power you're saying VEGETTO CAN'T SENSE HIMSELF.

The power of SSJ3 Vegeto has never been felt since it has never existed. How can you feel a power that has never existed, huh?

Gogetto

Jun 7 2014, 07:08 PM

*exasperated sigh*

Goku said that SSJ Gotenks can beat Fat Buu and yet at that time, it did not exist. How did he know then ? He knew the power of the SSJ kids and the power of dance fusion. It could therefore imagine the power of SSJ Gotenks even before his birth. Is the same, he knows the power of Vegeto and power of the SSJ3. So he can imagine the power of SSJ3 Vegeto. But imagine and feel are two different things.

That is why this reasoning applies for Bills, but not for Baby.

Yami Marik

Jun 7 2014, 07:32 PM

Nah, I don't think so.

What Gogeto is argueing here is that Goku said to Baby he never felt a ki as powerfull as SBV1. The problem is here that Vegito SSJ3 never appeared anywere so Goku never really felt the power of this Vegito, Goku just said he's the strong best ki he felt, not the strong best ki he could have as Vegito. In first statement he says fusion ipwont do any good while on the other SBV1 is the strongest ki felt ever. Goku may have known about SSJ3 Vegitos power, but I'm pretty sure he would have make a differnt kind if statement, don't know just saiyan.

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 07:37 PM

Yami Marik

Jun 7 2014, 07:32 PM

Nah, I don't think so.

What Gogeto is argueing here is that Goku said to Baby he never felt a ki as powerfull as SBV1. The problem is here that Vegito SSJ3 never appeared anywere so Goku never really felt the power of this Vegito, Goku just said he's the strong best ki he felt, not the strong best ki he could have as Vegito. In first statement he says fusion ipwont do any good while on the other SBV1 is the strongest ki felt ever. Goku may have known about SSJ3 Vegitos power, but I'm pretty sure he would have make a differnt kind if statement, don't know just saiyan.

Goku was Vegetto though, you're essentially saying Vegetto couldn't sense himself and his other forms. You're saying Goku while in Base can't sense his SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3 and can't give an accurate reading against another character whilst in Base because he's not in the form. How can a Z-Fighter NOT know his own ki? That's silly.

Ben-Dan The Man

Jun 7 2014, 07:40 PM

TConnor_Demonic

Jun 7 2014, 07:37 PM

Yami Marik

Jun 7 2014, 07:32 PM

Nah, I don't think so.

What Gogeto is argueing here is that Goku said to Baby he never felt a ki as powerfull as SBV1. The problem is here that Vegito SSJ3 never appeared anywere so Goku never really felt the power of this Vegito, Goku just said he's the strong best ki he felt, not the strong best ki he could have as Vegito. In first statement he says fusion ipwont do any good while on the other SBV1 is the strongest ki felt ever. Goku may have known about SSJ3 Vegitos power, but I'm pretty sure he would have make a differnt kind if statement, don't know just saiyan.

Goku was Vegetto though, you're essentially saying Vegetto couldn't sense himself and his other forms. You're saying Goku while in Base can't sense his SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3 and can't give an accurate reading against another character whilst in Base because he's not in the form. How can a Z-Fighter NOT know his own ki? That's silly.

Just wanted to say that's a bit weak of an argument, as Goku sensed his Super Saiyan forms in the past, so he would know regardless.

Ben-Dan The Man

Jun 7 2014, 07:42 PM

Yeah, by your logic it would make little sense for Goku not to know Vegetto's energy considering he knows how much power SSj3 adds.

Unless there's no set boost, but that's another story.