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SSJ Multipler; *50 or *10
Topic Started: Jun 1 2014, 10:12 AM (3,862 Views)
Goddess Ultimecia Jun 2 2014, 08:25 PM Post #31
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 Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P2.5
Context: Goku contemplates merging with Mister Satan
Goku: "It-it's no use doing it with Satan...I can't win if a power of 1,000 becomes 1,001...No, if things go bad, ain't I gonna get weaker than I am now...!?"

I like to think it's a bit more open ended since he says one thing then says something entirely different. I remember in the English dub Goku talked about how Mr.Satan's martial arts would be beneficial since Dende wasn't a fighter. But his inability to fly would hinder them. But I guess it depends on what he means by things going bad, if he's thinking about fusion failure states or if Potarra with beings far less powerful than yourself would actually make you weaker.
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* Ketchup Revenge Jun 2 2014, 09:08 PM Post #32
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
TConnor_Demonic
Jun 2 2014, 08:25 PM
Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P2.5
Context: Goku contemplates merging with Mister Satan
Goku: "It-it's no use doing it with Satan...I can't win if a power of 1,000 becomes 1,001...No, if things go bad, ain't I gonna get weaker than I am now...!?"

I like to think it's a bit more open ended since he says one thing then says something entirely different. I remember in the English dub Goku talked about how Mr.Satan's martial arts would be beneficial since Dende wasn't a fighter. But his inability to fly would hinder them. But I guess it depends on what he means by things going bad, if he's thinking about fusion failure states or if Potarra with beings far less powerful than yourself would actually make you weaker.
It's also possible that he was speaking the context of their skill, and not their actual power.

However, it seems that Vegetto actually has his own set of skills, however, it's obvious that they're derived from both Goku and Vegeta.
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+ Yusuke Jun 2 2014, 09:15 PM Post #33
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The only thing that I'm aware of is "Fighter A" multiplied by "Fighter B's" power. Fighter A actually being stronger fighter.


This statement is 100% invalid if both the Manga and Anime both imply that Base Vegito is weaker than Buuhan, just Saiyan.
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SSJ Jun 2 2014, 09:19 PM Post #34
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Yusuke Urameshi
Jun 2 2014, 09:15 PM
Quote:
 
The only thing that I'm aware of is "Fighter A" multiplied by "Fighter B's" power. Fighter A actually being stronger fighter.


Anime both imply that Base Vegito is weaker than Buuhan, just Saiyan.
How does the anime imply that? Vegetto was having a good time, as was Boohan. There was no clear strength chain shown.
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+ Yusuke Jun 2 2014, 09:22 PM Post #35
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Super Saiyan
Jun 2 2014, 09:19 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Jun 2 2014, 09:15 PM
Quote:
 
The only thing that I'm aware of is "Fighter A" multiplied by "Fighter B's" power. Fighter A actually being stronger fighter.


Anime both imply that Base Vegito is weaker than Buuhan, just Saiyan.
How does the anime imply that? Vegetto was having a good time, as was Boohan. There was no clear strength chain shown.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8989804&t=8477285

Buuhan pretty much tells Vegito that he hasn't surpassed him and Vegito doesn't object but goes SSJ to prove him wrong.
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* Ketchup Revenge Jun 2 2014, 10:26 PM Post #36
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
Yusuke Urameshi
Jun 2 2014, 09:15 PM
Quote:
 
The only thing that I'm aware of is "Fighter A" multiplied by "Fighter B's" power. Fighter A actually being stronger fighter.


This statement is 100% invalid if both the Manga and Anime both imply that Base Vegito is weaker than Buuhan, just Saiyan.
It only suggests that in the manga.
Considering that Vegetto in the manga went SSj immediately after being fused suggests that he was weaker than Boohan.

However, the only way this would work is if you have a 50x multiplier for Super Saiyan because even Super Saiyan Vegetto (with 10x) wouldn't be anywhere near Boohan.

Goku: 2
Vegeta: 1.9
Base Vegetto: 3.8
Super Saiyan Vegetto: 190

Ult. Gohan: 60
SSj3 Gotenks: 40
Piccolo: 2
Super Boo: 39
Bootenks: 81
Boohan: 141

If you use a 10x multiplier:
Goku: 2
Vegeta: 1.9
Vegetto: 3.8
SSj Vegetto: 38

Ult. Gohan: 60
SSj3 Gotenks: 40
Piccolo: 2
Super Boo: 39
Bootenks: 81
Boohan: 141

With the multipliers that you'd use for SSj for Goku and Vegeta, the numbers simply wouldn't add up. Super Saiyan Vegetto would be weaker than SSj3 Gotenks.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jun 2 2014, 10:44 PM.
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SSJ Jun 2 2014, 10:29 PM Post #37
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Yusuke Urameshi
Jun 2 2014, 09:22 PM
Super Saiyan
Jun 2 2014, 09:19 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Jun 2 2014, 09:15 PM
Quote:
 
The only thing that I'm aware of is "Fighter A" multiplied by "Fighter B's" power. Fighter A actually being stronger fighter.


Anime both imply that Base Vegito is weaker than Buuhan, just Saiyan.
How does the anime imply that? Vegetto was having a good time, as was Boohan. There was no clear strength chain shown.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8989804&t=8477285

Buuhan pretty much tells Vegito that he hasn't surpassed him and Vegito doesn't object but goes SSJ to prove him wrong.
Boohan also thought he could take on SSJ Vegetto, so I wouldn't take too much from that.
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* Ketchup Revenge Jun 2 2014, 10:48 PM Post #38
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

 Base Vegetto had no problem handling everything that Boohan threw at him in the anime. Super Saiyan in the anime was just suggested over-kill.
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Saberoph Jun 2 2014, 10:57 PM Post #39
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The Assassin
Jun 2 2014, 05:12 PM
Master Saberoph
Jun 2 2014, 04:49 PM
But not to use a Multiplier is missing the point in the SS Transformation. SS does exactly what Kaioken does, but more efficiently and with greater results.
Kaioken only increases your ki, while Super Saiyan increases the over-all integrity of your physical body as well as your ki. That's the difference between the two. That's the reason why Super Saiyan is better than Kaioken.

In addition to this, Super Saiyan ki is suggested to be fundamentally different than someone's base ki, as Gohan mistook Trunks as Goku, because his ki "was like dad's was, that time".

Just because your body gets 50x stronger doesn't mean that your ki increases by that much as well.
That's why I said SS is more efficient and has greater results.

As for the current argument, Ultimate Boo didn't seem to be all that serious in the Anime either... so, to argue that Base Vegetto was quite an amount stronger than Ultimate Boo is quite a stretch. Boo didn't get serious until after Vegetto went SS. Clearly Ultimate Boo completely underestimated Vegetto in every way and allowed his arrogance to get the best of him weather you read the Manga or watch the Anime.
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SSJ Jun 2 2014, 10:58 PM Post #40
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The Assassin
Jun 2 2014, 10:48 PM
Base Vegetto had no problem handling everything that Boohan threw at him in the anime. Super Saiyan in the anime was just suggested over-kill.
Basically this. Vegetto even goes as far as to taunt Boohan when it looked like Boohan did some damage to him. I think he was saying that it helped to stretch out his neck or something, so it's obvious he was putting little into the fight.
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+ Yusuke Jun 2 2014, 11:03 PM Post #41
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Super Saiyan
Jun 2 2014, 10:29 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Jun 2 2014, 09:22 PM
Super Saiyan
Jun 2 2014, 09:19 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Jun 2 2014, 09:15 PM
Quote:
 
The only thing that I'm aware of is "Fighter A" multiplied by "Fighter B's" power. Fighter A actually being stronger fighter.


Anime both imply that Base Vegito is weaker than Buuhan, just Saiyan.
How does the anime imply that? Vegetto was having a good time, as was Boohan. There was no clear strength chain shown.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8989804&t=8477285

Buuhan pretty much tells Vegito that he hasn't surpassed him and Vegito doesn't object but goes SSJ to prove him wrong.
Boohan also thought he could take on SSJ Vegetto, so I wouldn't take too much from that.
The only difference here is that Buuhan tells Vegito upfront that he hasn't surpassed him and Vegito makes no attempt to disagree and goes SSJ to prove him wrong. If he was bluffing, Vegito would have said something or proved him wrong by beating him in Base form.

Generall, i'm okay with Base Vegito > Buutenks, Buuhan >= Base Vegito or even Base Vegito = Buuhan but anything more than that contridicts what was shown in both the Manga and Anime.

@The Assassin

Thing is it will never work beause at the minimum, Goku and Vegeta are (if you believe Frieza > Base Saiyans) at least between 10,000,000-110,000,000. Once you multiply these 2 numbers, they come out massively stronger than Buuhan which totally contridicts what was shown.

I can make my list work with only using a 5X SSJ multiplier.

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* Ketchup Revenge Jun 2 2014, 11:32 PM Post #42
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

 I'd have Gohan closer to 2x over SSj3 Gotenks, or perhaps even higher, which at a minimum would put him at 38,400,000,000.

The reason to this is because he pawned Super Boo so bad, who was only slightly weaker than SSj3 Gotenks.

EDIT: Also I see what you did, that I forgot to do. I forgot to take away Gotenks's power from my final number for Bootenks, but my numbers still wouldn't work with only a 10x multiplier:

Goku: 2
Vegeta: 1.9
Vegetto: 3.8
SSj Vegetto: 38

Ult. Gohan: 60
SSj3 Gotenks: 40
Piccolo: 2
Goten/Trunks: 1
Super Boo: 39
Bootenks: 81
Boohan: 103
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jun 2 2014, 11:47 PM.
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SSJ Jun 2 2014, 11:37 PM Post #43
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The only difference here is that Buuhan tells Vegito upfront that he hasn't surpassed him and Vegito makes no attempt to disagree and goes SSJ to prove him wrong. If he was bluffing, Vegito would have said something or proved him wrong by beating him in Base form

It doesn't hold much merit because of Vegetto's attitude though. He didn't confirm or deny it, so you can't make a conclusion from it. The fact that Boohan is probably even more cocky than Vegetto shows that he overestimates his own abilities, especially when he couldn't even notice that Super Vegetto was possibly 50x stronger than himself. His sensing is garbage, is what I'm trying to get at. Vegetto played along with his statement to give him some false hope, you can see it in his cocky expression.
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olliebalollie Jun 2 2014, 11:38 PM Post #44
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Vertical
Jun 1 2014, 12:18 PM
This series was created on the fly, with no heed given to mathematics... to believe that something as simple as "BasexSomething" would be suitable for every situation is laughable.
Good explanation.

Although SS1 has to have x50 during the Freeza Arc, because KK already had x10 and x20, it will be silly if SS is x10.

I believe during the Freeza Arc SS is x50, but after that I don't think Toriyama had any simple mathematical equations for every character.
Edited by olliebalollie, Jun 2 2014, 11:51 PM.


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+ Pelador Jun 2 2014, 11:43 PM Post #45
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Crazy Awesome Legend

 Out of universe he was making characters as strong as they needed to be.

In universe... I don't know.


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