Cherry

Jun 1 2014, 05:44 PM

okay but there has to be a mathematical difference between the two numbers/strength/ call it whatever you want ....Multiplier, increase , gain .

PG14

Jun 1 2014, 07:52 PM

So, wasn't Frieza and Goku even when it was Goku vs 1% of Final Form Frieza's power? Technically, Frieza had a 50x increase in power by accessing 50% of his power. Obviously, a 50x multiplier would catch up to that. Basically, Super Saiyan has to have a 50x multiplier, at least when it was first introduced, in order to successfully combat Frieza, and beat him.

The Assassin

Jun 1 2014, 07:56 PM

PG14

Jun 1 2014, 07:52 PM

So, wasn't Frieza and Goku even when it was Goku vs 1% of Final Form Frieza's power? Technically, Frieza had a 50x increase in power by accessing 50% of his power. Obviously, a 50x multiplier would catch up to that. Basically, Super Saiyan has to have a 50x multiplier, at least when it was first introduced, in order to successfully combat Frieza, and beat him.

Dub line.

In the original Japanese, all he said was that he was only using a "fraction".

It more has to do with the fact that the 20 fold Kaioken matched 50% Freeza. That's the reason why SSj has to be higher than 40x, because 40x Goku would be Freeza's 100%, and SSj Goku was stronger than him at 100%.

However, even if Goku's initial transformation was 50x his base, that doesn't mean that future transformations had that much of a gap between base and SSj, or that it even follows a multiplier complex at all.

Cherry

Jun 1 2014, 08:24 PM

The Assassin

Jun 1 2014, 07:56 PM

PG14

Jun 1 2014, 07:52 PM

So, wasn't Frieza and Goku even when it was Goku vs 1% of Final Form Frieza's power? Technically, Frieza had a 50x increase in power by accessing 50% of his power. Obviously, a 50x multiplier would catch up to that. Basically, Super Saiyan has to have a 50x multiplier, at least when it was first introduced, in order to successfully combat Frieza, and beat him.

Dub line.

In the original Japanese, all he said was that he was only using a "fraction".

It more has to do with the fact that the 20 fold Kaioken matched 50% Freeza. That's the reason why SSj has to be higher than 40x, because 40x Goku would be Freeza's 100%, and SSj Goku was stronger than him at 100%.

However, even if Goku's initial transformation was 50x his base, that doesn't mean that future transformations had that much of a gap between base and SSj, or that it even follows a multiplier complex at all.

by this logic we cant say the proper pl levels in later arc.

The Assassin

Jun 1 2014, 08:34 PM

Cherry

Jun 1 2014, 08:24 PM

The Assassin

Jun 1 2014, 07:56 PM

PG14

Jun 1 2014, 07:52 PM

So, wasn't Frieza and Goku even when it was Goku vs 1% of Final Form Frieza's power? Technically, Frieza had a 50x increase in power by accessing 50% of his power. Obviously, a 50x multiplier would catch up to that. Basically, Super Saiyan has to have a 50x multiplier, at least when it was first introduced, in order to successfully combat Frieza, and beat him.

Dub line.

In the original Japanese, all he said was that he was only using a "fraction".

It more has to do with the fact that the 20 fold Kaioken matched 50% Freeza. That's the reason why SSj has to be higher than 40x, because 40x Goku would be Freeza's 100%, and SSj Goku was stronger than him at 100%.

However, even if Goku's initial transformation was 50x his base, that doesn't mean that future transformations had that much of a gap between base and SSj, or that it even follows a multiplier complex at all.

by this logic we cant say the proper pl levels in later arc.

That's why I don't stop people from using multipliers if they want to. I don't believe they exist, but I know it would be nightmare for PL lists, because I know people are so fond of those.

Master Saberoph

Jun 1 2014, 09:13 PM

I don't see how a Multiplier can't be used, that's the whole point of SS to begin with. Going by that logic the Kaioken would be considered better than SS and making that Transformation completely useless.

Cherry

 

I mean how could we describe super buu s actual place if we cant say gotensk ssj transformation works the same way as Goku s ssj transformations.

Literally We use gotenks to describe the power of Super Buu

Master Saberoph

Jun 2 2014, 04:49 PM

But not to use a Multiplier is missing the point in the SS Transformation. SS does exactly what Kaioken does, but more efficiently and with greater results.

The Assassin

Jun 1 2014, 06:29 PM

It doesn't make sense to train in Super Saiyan if the only way to increase Super Saiyan power is to train in base. That's why it seems likely to me that both states are independent of each other, even if they do need some fundamental connection.

The Assassin

Jun 1 2014, 10:29 PM

Master Saberoph

Jun 1 2014, 09:13 PM

I don't see how a Multiplier can't be used, that's the whole point of SS to begin with. Going by that logic the Kaioken would be considered better than SS and making that Transformation completely useless.

It's all about practicality of usage, not about what's stronger.
Kaioken only increases your ki for a moment, but doesn't increase the over-all integrity of your body. This is why the risk of damage to your own body from the technique is high.
A transformation is over-all better because your body physically changes in order to be stronger, more durable, in addition to be able to safely use higher ki level. Not to mention a transformation can be used for an extended period of time safely, unlike the Kaioken.

It's the same thing with using Kamehameha over Genki Dama. Genki Dama may pack a massively bigger punch, but it's impractical to use during a fight because it both takes too long to form, and the risk of something going wrong is very high. Meanwhile the Kamehameha is much more controllable and can be formed quickly.

Cherry

 

I mean how could we describe super buu s actual place if we cant say gotensk ssj transformation works the same way as Goku s ssj transformations.

Literally We use gotenks to describe the power of Super Buu

Yea, but I find it difficult to believe that these multipliers exist if Goku thinks that he (in base) could legitimately fuse with Ultimate Gohan and could give him a legitimate boost. And keep in mind that Gohan is well over Super Saiyan 3 Goku ("official" multipliers put SSj3 at 400x Base), and even stronger than Super Boo.
With the multipliers that people use, that would seriously make Super Boo and Gohan literally thousands of times stronger than Base Goku. Goku fusing with Gohan would literally be like adding a drop of water to a swimming pool. Even if Potara is A fighter's power multiplied by B fighter's power, the gap would be so huge that a permanent fusion wouldn't be worth it.
If we can only compare power by using multipliers, what purpose does it serve if Goku is only (eg) 1/25,000th as strong of Gohan?

If anything, their gap is close enough to where Goku's base power is actually close enough to Ultimate Gohan's to actually make a difference if they fused. This gap would be much smaller, like only 30x or something. Of course, this is just an example.

Cherry

Jun 2 2014, 07:48 PM

The Assassin

Jun 1 2014, 10:29 PM

Master Saberoph

Jun 1 2014, 09:13 PM

I don't see how a Multiplier can't be used, that's the whole point of SS to begin with. Going by that logic the Kaioken would be considered better than SS and making that Transformation completely useless.

It's all about practicality of usage, not about what's stronger.
Kaioken only increases your ki for a moment, but doesn't increase the over-all integrity of your body. This is why the risk of damage to your own body from the technique is high.
A transformation is over-all better because your body physically changes in order to be stronger, more durable, in addition to be able to safely use higher ki level. Not to mention a transformation can be used for an extended period of time safely, unlike the Kaioken.

It's the same thing with using Kamehameha over Genki Dama. Genki Dama may pack a massively bigger punch, but it's impractical to use during a fight because it both takes too long to form, and the risk of something going wrong is very high. Meanwhile the Kamehameha is much more controllable and can be formed quickly.

Cherry

 

I mean how could we describe super buu s actual place if we cant say gotensk ssj transformation works the same way as Goku s ssj transformations.

Literally We use gotenks to describe the power of Super Buu

Yea, but I find it difficult to believe that these multipliers exist if Goku thinks that he (in base) could legitimately fuse with Ultimate Gohan and could give him a legitimate boost. And keep in mind that Gohan is well over Super Saiyan 3 Goku ("official" multipliers put SSj3 at 400x Base), and even stronger than Super Boo.
With the multipliers that people use, that would seriously make Super Boo and Gohan literally thousands of times stronger than Base Goku. Goku fusing with Gohan would literally be like adding a drop of water to a swimming pool. Even if Potara is A fighter's power multiplied by B fighter's power, the gap would be so huge that a permanent fusion wouldn't be worth it.
If we can only compare power by using multipliers, what purpose does it serve if Goku is only (eg) 1/25,000th as strong of Gohan?

If anything, their gap is close enough to where Goku's base power is actually close enough to Ultimate Gohan's to actually make a difference if they fused. This gap would be much smaller, like only 30x or something. Of course, this is just an example.

If my memories serves me right goku mentioned potara fusion and this would legitimately make some boost