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Androids getting stronger.
Topic Started: May 31 2014, 10:25 PM (1,018 Views)
+ Solid Snake
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滅Are you frightened?

How will that be possible? Toriyama said something like they can still increase their power through training but how? They have no life force or no ki, using an internal energy supply instead. Can anyone explain this?
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DurararaFTW
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xGOKUdaFALLENx
May 31 2014, 10:25 PM
How will that be possible? Toriyama said something like they can still increase their power through training but how? They have no life force or no ki, using an internal energy supply instead. Can anyone explain this?
I presume they do have lifeforce, just one of an average human (at least in the Android Saga). They are still alive for the most part. They age slower but they do still age.
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Then why couldn't they be sensed?
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It is a strange subject...

I've noticed most people looking at it from the angle of "They could train their human bits". This would imply that they're effectively normal humans, with normal Ki... and mechanical parts that let them do amazing things.

The problem with that is... Goku can sense Bulma, an "average" Human, and yet no one can sense the 17 or 18.

And then you get into the math; do the mechanical parts enhance their current/real/human strength, or simply add a fixed amount to it no matter what it is?

If they trained themselves to whatever level... would you be able to sense that level?

To train themselves, do they have to disable any assistance from their mechanical parts?

etc etc...
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StrawHatCrew
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They have artificial/Android Ki, #16 could sense their energy & come to conclusion that Piccolo rivaled both of them (like Beerus/KaioShin with God Ki, they can't be sensed by the Z-Fighters). So yes they have Ki, I think.
Edited by StrawHatCrew, May 31 2014, 10:53 PM.
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Apparently, the only actual mechanical parts in 17 and 18 are their remote control and self-destruct devices. So if I understand this right, their power is actually biological in source, but still somehow artificial and operates similar to that of an Android. Which means that Dr. Gero was every bit as much of a flippin' genius as Bulma and Dr. Brief said, and must have figured out a way to somehow "convert" natural human ki into undetectable Android ki in such a way.

It's pretty far-out, but actually simplifies things if you think about it.
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Kaboom
May 31 2014, 10:59 PM
Apparently, the only actual mechanical parts in 17 and 18 are their remote control and self-destruct devices.
Where does this information come from?
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Originally from the manga, with Bulma noting that their enhancements are almost entirely organic in nature, and elaborated upon in a Daizenshuu section about different types of Androids:

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Biotechnological-type Artificial Humans
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03 ~ Artificial Human No. 17
A cool-headed artificial human who enjoys battles as if they were games. As the twin brother of No. 18, he places more importance on power. Like No. 18, he is fundamentally human-based and only his organic matter has been restructured. The few mechanical parts that are used were for his emergency deactivation controller and self-destruction device. If the emergency deactivation controller is used on the powerful No. 17 and No. 18, they become unable to move their bodies. As infinite models, No. 17 and No. 18's energy is limitless. Even if they discharge barriers or energy bullets, it isn't depleted.



So... yeah. It looks like they get their artificial Android-like power from some sort of freaky-deaky genetic engineering of whatever, not by a mechanical "battery" in their chests or anything.


EDIT: Here's the Kanzenshuu thread where we talked about it (kind of old now, no necro-posting please), with some good insight from Herms and a few others.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26374[/i]
Edited by Kaboom, May 31 2014, 11:27 PM.
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Kaboom
May 31 2014, 11:20 PM
Originally from the manga, with Bulma noting that their enhancements are almost entirely organic in nature, and elaborated upon in a Daizenshuu section about different types of Androids:

Quote:
 
Biotechnological-type Artificial Humans
Posted Image
03 ~ Artificial Human No. 17
A cool-headed artificial human who enjoys battles as if they were games. As the twin brother of No. 18, he places more importance on power. Like No. 18, he is fundamentally human-based and only his organic matter has been restructured. The few mechanical parts that are used were for his emergency deactivation controller and self-destruction device. If the emergency deactivation controller is used on the powerful No. 17 and No. 18, they become unable to move their bodies. As infinite models, No. 17 and No. 18's energy is limitless. Even if they discharge barriers or energy bullets, it isn't depleted.



So... yeah. It looks like they get their artificial Android-like power from some sort of freaky-deaky genetic engineering of whatever, not by a mechanical "battery" in their chests or anything.


EDIT: Here's the Kanzenshuu thread where we talked about it (kind of old now, no necro-posting please), with some good insight from Herms and a few others.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26374[/i]
Guidebooks aside... I did enjoy several of the theories in that thread.
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May 31 2014, 10:47 PM
It is a strange subject...

I've noticed most people looking at it from the angle of "They could train their human bits". This would imply that they're effectively normal humans, with normal Ki... and mechanical parts that let them do amazing things.

The problem with that is... Goku can sense Bulma, an "average" Human, and yet no one can sense the 17 or 18.

And then you get into the math; do the mechanical parts enhance their current/real/human strength, or simply add a fixed amount to it no matter what it is?

If they trained themselves to whatever level... would you be able to sense that level?

To train themselves, do they have to disable any assistance from their mechanical parts?

etc etc...
So do Cell and everyone else when hiding their presence drop to absolute zero? I never got that impression
Edited by DurararaFTW, May 31 2014, 11:59 PM.
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DurararaFTW
May 31 2014, 11:57 PM
So do Cell and everyone else when hiding their presence drop to absolute zero? I never got that impression
Is there any reason they wouldn't? Their ability to control their Ki at will is repeatedly reinforced during the Saiyan/Namek Arc... when attempting to hide, would it not make sense to simply turn off their Ki, or at least lower to a point of undetectability?
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Jun 1 2014, 12:10 AM
DurararaFTW
May 31 2014, 11:57 PM
So do Cell and everyone else when hiding their presence drop to absolute zero? I never got that impression
Is there any reason they wouldn't? Their ability to control their Ki at will is repeatedly reinforced during the Saiyan/Namek Arc... when attempting to hide, would it not make sense to simply turn off their Ki, or at least lower to a point of undetectability?
Yeah, but when they were hiding from Freeza they still got a reading, tho it was written off as an animal. When they were hiding from Vegeta he could still sense something, it was just low enough to be whale. During the Trunks Saga, Vegeta wanted to make the final approach on foot to hide their ki, but hardly insisted that everyone took flying cars to get there too. In the Cell Saga, Cell hardly walks everywhere either, even when he's still hiding. So I don't see why it's so preposterous a notion that 18 and 17 still had powerlevels of 1-4 but it didn't aid anyone in finding them, on a populated planet like Earth, it wouldn't be noticable at all.
Edited by DurararaFTW, Jun 1 2014, 12:35 AM.
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DurararaFTW
Jun 1 2014, 12:34 AM
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Jun 1 2014, 12:10 AM
DurararaFTW
May 31 2014, 11:57 PM
So do Cell and everyone else when hiding their presence drop to absolute zero? I never got that impression
Is there any reason they wouldn't? Their ability to control their Ki at will is repeatedly reinforced during the Saiyan/Namek Arc... when attempting to hide, would it not make sense to simply turn off their Ki, or at least lower to a point of undetectability?
Yeah, but when they were hiding from Freeza they still got a reading, tho it was written off as an animal. When they were hiding from Vegeta he could still sense something, it was just low enough to be whale. During the Trunks Saga, Vegeta wanted to make the final approach on foot to hide their ki, but hardly insisted that everyone took flying cars to get there too. In the Cell Saga, Cell hardly walks everywhere either, even when he's still hiding. So I don't see why it's so preposterous a notion that 18 and 17 still had powerlevels of 1-4 but it didn't aid anyone in finding them, on a populated planet like Earth, it wouldn't be noticable at all.
Gohan and Krillin on Namek were detected by scouters while:
  • In combat
  • Distressed and unfocused
Also, when Vegeta detected them, they were flying... and he lost them the moment they hid their Ki again.

On the first occasion he clearly could not sense them anymore but then picked up on a "small Ki" (likely Dende) but wrote that off as the whale that appeared shortly after and blamed his fairly noob'ish ability to sense Ki at this point.

The second time, with Gohan returning from the village with the drowned Dragon Ball, Vegeta obviously couldn't sense Gohan once he hid his Ki... as Vegeta simply went to where the Ki had vanished and started yelling threats.


Cell remained on foot from the moment of his Taiyoken until he sensed Piccolo battling 17. One could argue that every one was distracted by Piccolo's battle and could not sense the minimal amount Cell was likely giving off (as he wanted to arrive unannounced but quickly).

If Goku can sense Bulma... with a PL of whatever... there's no reason they shouldn't be able to sense 17/18 if they had similar Ki.
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Jun 1 2014, 12:53 AM
Cell remained on foot from the moment of his Taiyoken until he sensed Piccolo battling 17. One could argue that every one was distracted by Piccolo's battle and could not sense the minimal amount Cell was likely giving off (as he wanted to arrive unannounced but quickly).

If Goku can sense Bulma... with a PL of whatever... there's no reason they shouldn't be able to sense 17/18 if they had similar Ki.
As a side-note, the ones on Roshi's Island did sense him approaching, which is why Tenshinhan left to the battle in the first place. Piccolo was too busy fighting 17 to notice, 17 and 18 can't sense at this point and I guess 16 was too busy watching the fight.

I agree with what Kaboom said in this thread about the androids' ki. I've always had that kind of belief.
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Jun 1 2014, 06:44 AM
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Jun 1 2014, 12:53 AM
Cell remained on foot from the moment of his Taiyoken until he sensed Piccolo battling 17. One could argue that every one was distracted by Piccolo's battle and could not sense the minimal amount Cell was likely giving off (as he wanted to arrive unannounced but quickly).

If Goku can sense Bulma... with a PL of whatever... there's no reason they shouldn't be able to sense 17/18 if they had similar Ki.
As a side-note, the ones on Roshi's Island did sense him approaching, which is why Tenshinhan left to the battle in the first place. Piccolo was too busy fighting 17 to notice, 17 and 18 can't sense at this point and I guess 16 was too busy watching the fight.
And yet they never noticed him prior to that. Excellent.
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