Super Saiyan

Jun 1 2014, 11:38 PM

To be honest I'm not arguing with you too much. I have been on both sides of the table when it came to this topic, but my current belief is to simply throw out the statement. If you can make it work, then fine. I justdon't see the need for the humans to be that powerful.

Vertical

Jun 1 2014, 11:44 PM

Super Saiyan

Jun 1 2014, 11:38 PM

To be honest I'm not arguing with you too much. I have been on both sides of the table when it came to this topic, but my current belief is to simply throw out the statement. If you can make it work, then fine. I justdon't see the need for the humans to be that powerful.

Fair enough... but where does it end? If you can throw away this statement to make things mathematically simpler... if you can throw away Gotenks implications... if you can throw away anything... at what point have you simply abandoned the series altogether?

Super Saiyan

Jun 1 2014, 11:49 PM

Vertical

Jun 1 2014, 11:44 PM

Super Saiyan

Jun 1 2014, 11:38 PM

To be honest I'm not arguing with you too much. I have been on both sides of the table when it came to this topic, but my current belief is to simply throw out the statement. If you can make it work, then fine. I justdon't see the need for the humans to be that powerful.

Fair enough... but where does it end? If you can throw away this statement to make things mathematically simpler... if you can throw away Gotenks implications... if you can throw away anything... at what point have you simply abandoned the series altogether?

I don't really throw it out due to mathematics. I'm just one who doesn't trust Gero's sensing abilities, that is why I toss it. And the reason why I don't trust him, is because he was clearly wrong multiple times. Hell, the fact that he retreated from a very weak Base Vegeta shows me that he has little to no sensing abilities, at least when it comes to sensing powers. He never actually got a power level correct, which someone with 16's sensors did. So I'm guessing he has got the lowest of the low in terms of the quality of his sensor.

Vertical

Jun 1 2014, 11:54 PM

Super Saiyan

Jun 1 2014, 11:49 PM

Vertical

Jun 1 2014, 11:44 PM

Super Saiyan

Jun 1 2014, 11:38 PM

To be honest I'm not arguing with you too much. I have been on both sides of the table when it came to this topic, but my current belief is to simply throw out the statement. If you can make it work, then fine. I justdon't see the need for the humans to be that powerful.

Fair enough... but where does it end? If you can throw away this statement to make things mathematically simpler... if you can throw away Gotenks implications... if you can throw away anything... at what point have you simply abandoned the series altogether?

I don't really throw it out due to mathematics. I'm just one who doesn't trust Gero's sensing abilities, that is why I toss it. And the reason why I don't trust him, is because he was clearly wrong multiple times. Hell, the fact that he retreated from a very weak Base Vegeta shows me that he has little to no sensing abilities, at least when it comes to sensing powers. He never actually got a power level correct, which someone with 16's sensors did. So I'm guessing he has got the lowest of the low in terms of the quality of his sensor.

When were his measurements wrong?

Also, withdrawing from Vegeta says nothing about his sensory capabilities...

Super Saiyan

Jun 2 2014, 12:02 AM

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P14.1
Context: after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan
No.20: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

This is blatantly wrong, there is no working around it.

Super Saiyan

Jun 2 2014, 12:02 AM

And I think withdrawing does show that indeed. If he was really capable of sensing SSJ Vegeta, he would have known that his SSJ form was much, much weaker than it was before.

Quote:

 

Really? Because as far as I remember 19 defeated Goku.

Even if you play the "Goku was getting weaker the whole fight", pre-chest grab, Goku was making no progress... and although Gero became concerned, as soon as Goku fired a Kamehameha, BAM. Victory sealed. For all we know, that could've been the plan all along.

EDIT: There's also the whole... "Standing Ki vs fighting Ki" argument I suppose...

Quote:

 

But that was the point. He knew Vegeta was weaker than before. Everyone knew it. Which is why the bluff was highlighted to be so amazing. Vegeta's bluff caused Gero to disregard his obvious advantage and flee in fear of whatever was allowing Vegeta to remain confident.

He had just witnessed SSJ... for all he knew there was more that he didn't know about.

Super Saiyan

Jun 2 2014, 12:22 AM

Quote:

 

Really? Because as far as I remember 19 defeated Goku.

Even if you play the "Goku was getting weaker the whole fight", pre-chest grab, Goku was making no progress... and although Gero became concerned, as soon as Goku fired a Kamehameha, BAM. Victory sealed. For all we know, that could've been the plan all along.

EDIT: There's also the whole... "Standing Ki vs fighting Ki" argument I suppose...

19 only defeated Goku because he gained a ton of energy, as well as what you mentioned. First of all, we need to keep in mind that the androids are pretty much immune to pain. They may not be immune to fear, but pain they can tolerate. This is seen when 19 and 20 had their hands/arms cut off, and they didn't show much pain. This is part of the reason why it appears as though Goku wasn't making much progress. The thing is, he was really making progress as stated by Gero, who has a grasp of how 19's energy works.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.6
No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”

I don't really think Gero was banking on the absorption of energy, because he seemed confident in his and 19's abilities.

Super Saiyan

Jun 2 2014, 12:22 AM

The standing ki vs fighting ki is an interesting thing to bring into this. I don't think we need to consider it in this particular battle though because of what is said by Tenshinhan.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P7.4
Tenshinhan: “There’s no need to worry. Goku is outrageously strong. This ‘Super Saiyan’ thing is incredible…! [The androids] talk big, but they’re helpless.”

There wasn't any note of his power changing between the transformation and the battle, so I'm not going to assume that his ki level changed.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jun 2 2014, 12:44 AM

I'll just say none of them surpass Freeza's third form in their prime.

Yusuke Urameshi

Jun 2 2014, 12:48 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jun 2 2014, 12:44 AM

I'll just say none of them surpass Freeza's third form in their prime.

Personalliy, I have them stronger than Initial Final Form Frieza in the Android/Cell Saga mostly because I have a soft spot for Humans lol.

The Assassin

Jun 2 2014, 04:59 AM

End of Namek:
Krillin: 300,000
Tenshinhan: 100,000
Yamcha: 45,000
Chiatzou: 20,000

Trunks Arrival:
Krillin: 375,000
Tenshinhan: 225,000
Yamcha: 60,000
Chiaotzou: 23,000

Android/Cell Arc:
Krillin: 5,500,000
Tenshinhan: 2,500,000
Yamcha: 800,000
Chiaotzou: 45,000

Boo Arc:
Krillin: 4,250,000
Tenshinhan: 3,700,000
Yamcha: 300,000
Chiaotzou: 60,000

These numbers are more based on the fact that they didn't have special training conditions like they did during the Saiyan Arc. This is the reason why they're gains aren't as big as they were during that time.

DurararaFTW

Jun 2 2014, 06:02 AM

The Assassin

Jun 2 2014, 04:59 AM

End of Namek:
Krillin: 300,000
Tenshinhan: 100,000
Yamcha: 45,000
Chiatzou: 20,000

Trunks Arrival:
Krillin: 375,000
Tenshinhan: 225,000
Yamcha: 60,000
Chiaotzou: 23,000

Android/Cell Arc:
Krillin: 5,500,000
Tenshinhan: 2,500,000
Yamcha: 800,000
Chiaotzou: 45,000

Boo Arc:
Krillin: 4,250,000
Tenshinhan: 3,700,000
Yamcha: 300,000
Chiaotzou: 60,000

These numbers are more based on the fact that they didn't have special training conditions like they did during the Saiyan Arc. This is the reason why they're gains aren't as big as they were during that time.

Keep in mind that Chiaotzu and Tien were on King Kai's planet twice as long as Yamcha, their gains should reflect that.