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How strong is Pocus?
Topic Started: May 29 2014, 01:09 PM (4,869 Views)
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The Assassin
May 31 2014, 02:55 AM
Kaboom
May 31 2014, 02:47 AM
The Assassin
May 31 2014, 02:43 AM
And simply out of curiosity, can someone please cite the quote where Kaioshin says that he could one-shot Freeza? I don't recall seeing this, nor have I ever seen a reference for this claim.

From the good ol' Strength Checker:


Quote:
 
Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”
Vegeta: “Th-that bastard…So he can even read minds, huh?”
I'm not really trying to argue, but is there any evidence that he even knew about Final form Freeza?
I have a hard time believing that he knew about Freeza's real power considering that he doesn't seem to pay much attention to stuff that goes on in the Mortal Realm. Evidence to this is him knowing next to nothing about Super Saiyans and even Cell.

He's proven continuously that he's not "all-seeing", and seems to rely on hear-say over his actual godly insight.
In-Universe points to the high likelihood that he didn't know about Final Form Freeza.

Out-of-Universe though, he is very very likely supposed to know of Final Form Freeza.
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lazerbem
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The Assassin
May 31 2014, 02:55 AM
Kaboom
May 31 2014, 02:47 AM
The Assassin
May 31 2014, 02:43 AM
And simply out of curiosity, can someone please cite the quote where Kaioshin says that he could one-shot Freeza? I don't recall seeing this, nor have I ever seen a reference for this claim.

From the good ol' Strength Checker:


Quote:
 
Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”
Vegeta: “Th-that bastard…So he can even read minds, huh?”
I'm not really trying to argue, but is there any evidence that he even knew about Final form Freeza?
I have a hard time believing that he knew about Freeza's real power considering that he doesn't seem to pay much attention to stuff that goes on in the Mortal Realm. Evidence to this is him knowing next to nothing about Super Saiyans and even Cell.

He's proven continuously that he's not "all-seeing", and seems to rely on hear-say over his actual godly insight.
Freeza's been the terror of the galaxy, known by everyone, for what, 30 years? Everyone would know about him. Hell, even King Kai knew about Freeza's Full Power. Kaioshin should know

But, Cell was on Earth for like..a week? Two weeks? The Super Saiyans were around for about 10 years, but they kept a low profile. Aside from beating Freeza, they did nothing that the universe would know about. And as for beating Freeza, it's highly possible Kaioshin just considered Super Saiyan to be an exagerration. Let's face it, would you believe a weak race killed Freeza by turning blonde?
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lazerbem
May 31 2014, 03:05 AM
The Assassin
May 31 2014, 02:55 AM
Kaboom
May 31 2014, 02:47 AM
The Assassin
May 31 2014, 02:43 AM
And simply out of curiosity, can someone please cite the quote where Kaioshin says that he could one-shot Freeza? I don't recall seeing this, nor have I ever seen a reference for this claim.

From the good ol' Strength Checker:


Quote:
 
Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”
Vegeta: “Th-that bastard…So he can even read minds, huh?”
I'm not really trying to argue, but is there any evidence that he even knew about Final form Freeza?
I have a hard time believing that he knew about Freeza's real power considering that he doesn't seem to pay much attention to stuff that goes on in the Mortal Realm. Evidence to this is him knowing next to nothing about Super Saiyans and even Cell.

He's proven continuously that he's not "all-seeing", and seems to rely on hear-say over his actual godly insight.
Freeza's been the terror of the galaxy, known by everyone, for what, 30 years? Everyone would know about him. Hell, even King Kai knew about Freeza's Full Power. Kaioshin should know

But, Cell was on Earth for like..a week? Two weeks? The Super Saiyans were around for about 10 years, but they kept a low profile. Aside from beating Freeza, they did nothing that the universe would know about. And as for beating Freeza, it's highly possible Kaioshin just considered Super Saiyan to be an exagerration. Let's face it, would you believe a weak race killed Freeza by turning blonde?
Kaio-Sama's job is to observe that part of the Universe, while Kaioshin's is not. Given the fact on how "out of the loop" he was, it's hard to believe that he did know about Freeza other than what he heard.

Also you need to consider that Super Saiyans had existed (at least one did) prior to Goku and the rest.
This legend was known around the galaxy. There's no reason to believe that he hadn't heard about this prior to Goku ever existing.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, May 31 2014, 03:58 AM.
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May 31 2014, 03:00 AM
Out-of-Universe though, he is very very likely supposed to know of Final Form Freeza.
Exactly this. It makes no sense that First Form Freeza would be relevant in AT's eyes at this point in the series.
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The Assassin
May 31 2014, 02:43 AM
Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 01:11 AM
Kaioshin doesn't touch Pocus. So thats why Pocus makes Frieza his b***. I like to see evidence of Kaioshin being capable of defeating Pocus, which you haven't either. Its not that Pocus is weak, its just that the base saiyans are that strong. Base Saiyans like Vegeta being at Imperfect Cell tier ot 16 tier, can still one-shot someone who is at SSJ android arc tier.

Gotta love Pocus. What an total beast he is.
There's absolutely no evidence for Pocus being impressive at all.
You can't judge a character's power by the quotes of someone who can't even sense another person who is right in front of his face.
Kaioshin is trash at sensing ki. He honestly couldn't sense that any of the Base Saiyans could handle Pui Pui and he blatantly could not sense Boo, who was floating in mist form above his head.

He also asked Goku if Gotenks was stronger than he was, which we know that Gotenks is at least several times stronger than Goku. He sensed Goku's SSj3 power earlier on, and couldn't even compare the two.

The only evidence that I need for my argument is the utter lack of evidence for the latter.

And simply out of curiosity, can someone please cite the quote where Kaioshin says that he could one-shot Freeza? I don't recall seeing this, nor have I ever seen a reference for this claim.

If u don't follow the statements its given and ignore the meaning what AT is trying explain to us, then there is no point of discussing.

Kaioshin did admit to Goku inferiority , and was shocked at base Vegeta being stronger than Pocus and defeating him all by himself , meaning that he himself couldn't think of defeating Pocus on his own.

I recall Kaioshin ,Dabura and Babidi being trash at ki sensing. Those are the mainfactor for the inconsistenties, but I have to go what was given in manga.

About the Frieza first or final form, I remember Kyo explaining this perfectly:

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8639474&t=8399357o
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You know, it's funny... Kaioshin comparing himself to Goku when they meet at the Budokai doesn't matter squat, because Vegeta renders his comparison mute when he easily disposes of Pocus.

Or at the very least, it proves that Kaioshin was comparing himself to SSJ Goku.
Edited by Emmeth, May 31 2014, 11:13 AM.
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Emmeth
May 31 2014, 04:51 AM
Vertical
May 31 2014, 03:00 AM
Out-of-Universe though, he is very very likely supposed to know of Final Form Freeza.
Exactly this. It makes no sense that First Form Freeza would be relevant in AT's eyes at this point in the series.
It makes no sense for the feat of stand tall at 10x Earth's gravity to be relevant either but Pui Pui and Kaioshin definitely felt it was.

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All this tells me is that they were informed of multiple great energy sources... but everything else tells me they were only aiming to drain one. Although you could easily stretch it to the point that they would've drained both combatants if both combatants displayed decent energy.


What is "everything else", again we don't see them talking to each other before this exchange.

When they hand it to Babidi he says "Good job, this is nearly full." And as you said they exceeded Babidi's expectations still. There was limited amount of energy they could gather and draining Gohan was enough. Them leaving after that does not mean they were only ever gonna drain the first likely fighter they came across and then report back.
Edited by DurararaFTW, May 31 2014, 11:49 AM.
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Alex D. Boss
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Emmeth
May 31 2014, 11:12 AM
You know, it's funny... Kaioshin comparing himself to Goku when they meet at the Budokai doesn't matter squat, because Vegeta renders his comparison mute when he easily disposes of Pocus.

Or at the very least, it proves that Kaioshin was comparing himself to SSJ Goku.


There is no proof that he is comparing himself to SSJ Goku. I had to lol at this.
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Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 11:45 AM
There is no proof that he is comparing himself to SSJ Goku. I had to lol at this.
More proof than against. It's not nice to laugh at others, Alex.
Edited by Emmeth, May 31 2014, 12:12 PM.
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Emmeth
May 31 2014, 12:12 PM
Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 11:45 AM
There is no proof that he is comparing himself to SSJ Goku. I had to lol at this.
More proof than against. It's not nice to laugh at others, Alex.

Goku wasn't SSJ at that time. Kaioshin doesn't know that, evidences showed when he was surprised at Vegeta's power at his base.

I'm not laughing at others, I'm playing mind games.
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Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 12:24 PM
Emmeth
May 31 2014, 12:12 PM
Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 11:45 AM
There is no proof that he is comparing himself to SSJ Goku. I had to lol at this.
More proof than against. It's not nice to laugh at others, Alex.

Goku wasn't SSJ at that time. Kaioshin doesn't know that, evidences showed when he was surprised at Vegeta's power at his base.

I'm not laughing at others, I'm playing mind games.
Kaioshin knew about Gohan's ability to go SSjin and he casually mentioned Freeza. I say that hints towards him knowing about Goku's SSjin ability.
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Emmeth
May 31 2014, 12:25 PM
Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 12:24 PM
Emmeth
May 31 2014, 12:12 PM
Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 11:45 AM
There is no proof that he is comparing himself to SSJ Goku. I had to lol at this.
More proof than against. It's not nice to laugh at others, Alex.

Goku wasn't SSJ at that time. Kaioshin doesn't know that, evidences showed when he was surprised at Vegeta's power at his base.

I'm not laughing at others, I'm playing mind games.
Kaioshin knew about Gohan's ability to go SSjin and he casually mentioned Freeza. I say that hints towards him knowing about Goku's SSjin ability.

If Kaioshin knew about the SSJ abilities, he wouldn't be worried about going toe-to-toe against the fighters.

I'm tired of discussion this crap for years and years. Its not about you, because I respect everyone beliefs. But its just that I want to eat my potato chips and watch an anime.
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Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 12:28 PM
If Kaioshin knew about the SSJ abilities, he wouldn't be worried about going toe-to-toe against the fighters.

I'm tired of discussion this crap for years and years. Its not about you, because I respect everyone beliefs. But its just that I want to eat my potato chips and watch an anime.
He wasn't worried, he was cautious. There's a significant difference. He knew that Boo could wake up if they used to much energy, and THAT'S why he was cautious.

If you're tired of discussing, why are you here? Go watch your anime and eat junk then :p
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and like I mentioned, he wasn't 100% sure what Pocus could do. I think he was being pretty smart. It's only in hindsight we understand that the Saiyans could have just blasted their way into Buu's chamber without any issues.


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Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 11:06 AM
The Assassin
May 31 2014, 02:43 AM
Alex KloonBoss
May 31 2014, 01:11 AM
Kaioshin doesn't touch Pocus. So thats why Pocus makes Frieza his b***. I like to see evidence of Kaioshin being capable of defeating Pocus, which you haven't either. Its not that Pocus is weak, its just that the base saiyans are that strong. Base Saiyans like Vegeta being at Imperfect Cell tier ot 16 tier, can still one-shot someone who is at SSJ android arc tier.

Gotta love Pocus. What an total beast he is.
There's absolutely no evidence for Pocus being impressive at all.
You can't judge a character's power by the quotes of someone who can't even sense another person who is right in front of his face.
Kaioshin is trash at sensing ki. He honestly couldn't sense that any of the Base Saiyans could handle Pui Pui and he blatantly could not sense Boo, who was floating in mist form above his head.

He also asked Goku if Gotenks was stronger than he was, which we know that Gotenks is at least several times stronger than Goku. He sensed Goku's SSj3 power earlier on, and couldn't even compare the two.

The only evidence that I need for my argument is the utter lack of evidence for the latter.

And simply out of curiosity, can someone please cite the quote where Kaioshin says that he could one-shot Freeza? I don't recall seeing this, nor have I ever seen a reference for this claim.

If u don't follow the statements its given and ignore the meaning what AT is trying explain to us, then there is no point of discussing.

Kaioshin did admit to Goku inferiority , and was shocked at base Vegeta being stronger than Pocus and defeating him all by himself , meaning that he himself couldn't think of defeating Pocus on his own.

I recall Kaioshin ,Dabura and Babidi being trash at ki sensing. Those are the mainfactor for the inconsistenties, but I have to go what was given in manga.

About the Frieza first or final form, I remember Kyo explaining this perfectly:

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8639474&t=8399357o
How am I ignoring statements if they don't exist in the first place?

Kaioshin, being out of the loop, knew next to nothing about Pocus. He if he was really that much stronger than the Base Saiyans (who later were stated by Beerus to be weaker than Freeza), than what argument does that hold?

Battle of Gods canonicity is up for debate of course, but since Toriyama stated that he re-wrote the entire script, I don't see why that shouldn't be considered a valid statement, even if all the concepts in that film weren't his own.

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If Kaioshin knew about the SSJ abilities, he wouldn't be worried about going toe-to-toe against the fighters.

I'm tired of discussion this crap for years and years. Its not about you, because I respect everyone beliefs. But its just that I want to eat my potato chips and watch an anime.

Given the fact that both Kaioshin and Kabito both were shocked at the Saiyans' power, that's highly unlikely that they knew much about Saiyan abilities.

And since you won't stop griping being in this debate, no one's stopping you from watching the anime and eating potato chips. The fact that you're here is your choice alone.
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