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The argument of Frieza>Base Saiyans.
Topic Started: May 27 2014, 08:33 AM (4,444 Views)
Saberoph
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This directly contradicts from Frieza to the Boo arc as in increases... since we saw that in one day Gohan surpassed his SS in Base by quite a bit, and that's in just one day.

Now, remember the screenplay was written by Yűsuke Watanabe not AT, not only that but to say BOG is canon then so is GT because AT did work on it and since TOEI did Direct BOG that would technically make the Movies just as canon as BOG.

Yes, I know of AT saying the Movies are side stories, but if BOG is a contradiction on Frieza to Boo, then AT's statement about the Movies being a side story can't really be taken seriously? Especially since AT is contradicting himself.

And cracking this up to I can't prove you wrong VS I can't prove you wrong is a completely copout and real evidence that has been shown and not hearsay non faction evidence is to be used to debunk this debate. Also, no bias or excuses.

Now, before anyone says I'm trying to tip the argument in my favor by adding those conditions... I'm not, I'm just making it to where anyone who argues this can't take the easy way out nor can they hold double standards about continuity and contradictions.
Edited by Saberoph, May 27 2014, 08:56 AM.
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One thing the new movie has in its favor is Toriyama thinking of it as a continuation of his manga.
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+ Clearin
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Toriyama said he pretty much re-wrote the entire script.
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Clearin
May 27 2014, 01:13 PM
Toriyama said he pretty much re-wrote the entire script.
That's an interesting thing to consider, though. He took someone else's script and rewrote it, but it still began as someone else's.

I got the feeling he mainly meant the dialogue and tone of the script, but I haven't read those interviews in a long time.
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Kamikaze Pyro
May 27 2014, 01:17 PM
Clearin
May 27 2014, 01:13 PM
Toriyama said he pretty much re-wrote the entire script.
That's an interesting thing to consider, though. He took someone else's script and rewrote it, but it still began as someone else's.

I got the feeling he mainly meant the dialogue and tone of the script, but I haven't read those interviews in a long time.
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How did you end up writing the story?
When I went to Tokyo, all of a sudden Torishima-san1 told me, “Read this script2. We want to make a movie out of it.” (laughs) When I read it, I thought it might be a bit too complex for kids, and that the story was a bit too serious. For the dialogue as well, there were turns of phrase that only the creator would know, so I sent in a revision, [saying] “How about something like this?” Later, I took a look at the revised script, and as I looked at the dialogue and other parts that bothered me, [it dawned on me that] I had written the entire story without realizing it. (laughs) I felt that the part of a god appearing was the main point of this movie, so I left it in, but the rest had become the story I came up with myself. (laughs wryly)


It says he came up with the story himself, other than the idea of Beerus/SSjG. He also points out he looked at the dialogue, meaning he would have surely come across that line even if he didn't write it.
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Well, that's what I'm pointing out. The script was already written. It was then presented to him and he essentially gave it a makeover while keeping the core aspect of Super Saiyan God. In the minds of some people, unless it was all written by him from conception to post-production, it doesn't count as something that's truly his work, even if he did constitute a large portion of it. This seems to happen more frequently in live action movies.

I personally don't care one way or the other, though.
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Oh boy, another one of these...

No, the idea of Freeza still being stronger than the Saiyans in their base forms does not outright contradict anything but fans' own interpretations and views on power growth. Plenty of fans, myself included, have considered the base Saiyans that "low" in power for years, and the movie only gives that particular outlook some more solid support.

And because 'Freeza > base Goku' doesn't contradict anything, then there's no need to fuss over how much of the film's script was or wasn't personality written by Toriyama, Because it doesn't matter. Toriyama's not contradicting himself by making that claim, and neither is Watanabe if he came up with the line.
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Buu Saga supports Base Saiyans > Kaioshin, BoG seems to support Freeza > Base Saiyans. I choose to go with what was implied in the Manga and not something that's only been around for a year, that's just me.

And TBH, we had way too many threads like this recently. I think we should cool it a bit with the whole "Base Saiyans VS (insert character here)" threads.
Edited by Yusuke, May 27 2014, 03:45 PM.
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Yusuke Urameshi
May 27 2014, 03:44 PM
Buu Saga supports Base Saiyans > Kaioshin, BoG seems to support Freeza > Base Saiyans. I choose to go with what was implied in the Manga and not something that's only been around for a year, that's just me.
Base Saiyans > Kaioshin is never officially backed by the manga. Freeza > Base Saiyans is officially backed by BoG, which was rewritten by the original manga creator.
Edited by Emmeth, May 27 2014, 03:48 PM.
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Emmeth
May 27 2014, 03:47 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
May 27 2014, 03:44 PM
Buu Saga supports Base Saiyans > Kaioshin, BoG seems to support Freeza > Base Saiyans. I choose to go with what was implied in the Manga and not something that's only been around for a year, that's just me.
Base Saiyans > Kaioshin is never officially backed by the manga. Freeza > Base Saiyans is officially backed by BoG, which was rewritten by the original manga creator.
The circle of life will continue to swirl with this debate. Everything someone says in this debate can be turned against them in some way.
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As of now, I'm convinced the super saiyan multiplier is only 3-5x base during buu saga so base saiyans can't be any weaker than 100% frieza

As for BOG, AT practically wrote the movie. Aside from still having a god in the movie, toriyama wrote the story and it was a completely different story from what Watanabe wrote. Watanabe's story was going to a lizard god named virusu and he was going to spread a virus on earth making everyone evil.
IT'S CHEESE
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Emmeth
May 27 2014, 03:47 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
May 27 2014, 03:44 PM
Buu Saga supports Base Saiyans > Kaioshin, BoG seems to support Freeza > Base Saiyans. I choose to go with what was implied in the Manga and not something that's only been around for a year, that's just me.
Base Saiyans > Kaioshin is never officially backed by the manga. Freeza > Base Saiyans is officially backed by BoG, which was rewritten by the original manga creator.
It is implied when you take a close look at the powerscaling in the early bits of the Buu Saga.

As for BoG, I don't see what's so definitive about it. This isn't the first time we haven't seen a character not suppressed. Goku was @5,000 at both Vegeta/Nappa as well as the Ginyu Force.
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Yusuke Urameshi
May 27 2014, 04:05 PM
It is implied when you take a close look at the powerscaling in the early bits of the Buu Saga.

As for BoG, I don't see what's so definitive about it. This isn't the first time we haven't seen a character not suppressed. Goku was @5,000 at both Vegeta/Nappa as well as the Ginyu Force.
Implied isn't supported.

And the flaw within that assessment is that it is never stated that Goku is suppressed.
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Yusuke Urameshi
May 27 2014, 03:44 PM
Buu Saga supports Base Saiyans > Kaioshin, BoG seems to support Freeza > Base Saiyans. I choose to go with what was implied in the Manga and not something that's only been around for a year, that's just me.

And TBH, we had way too many threads like this recently. I think we should cool it a bit with the whole "Base Saiyans VS (insert character here)" threads.
While BoG isn't the best example of this, you should generally take the newer stuff over the older stuff because it's more likely the creator trying to fix past mistakes. For example Toriyama changed Vegeta's PL from 20,000 to 30,000 in the Freeza saga, even though at one point the new, and obviously correct, information would have been around "only a year".
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sekzee
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Base Saiyans (exception being Ultimate Gohan) < Frieza < SSJs < Perfect Cell < SSJ2s < Buu >~< SSJ3s

The only thing I have a problem with is Old Kaioshin stating that the one who sealed him in the sword was not as powerful as Buu (or did the original Japanese dialogue say "terrible"?), and then claiming Beerus was the one who sealed him.
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