KidKu vs SSJ3 Gotenks

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KidKu vs SSJ3 Gotenks
Tweet Topic Started: May 21 2014, 07:18 PM (6,346 Views)
SSJ	Jun 3 2014, 06:31 PM Post #91
Posts: 16,377 Group: General Member #8,258 Joined: September 8, 2012 Gender Female Country Sweden Favourite Anime Psycho Pass, Steins;Gate, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Favourite Manga One Piece, Berserk, Rurouni Kenshin, Gantz	What about option c) Use logic. ?



Saberoph	Jun 3 2014, 06:37 PM Post #92
Posts: 11,517 Group: Member Member #5,650 Joined: January 23, 2011 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer Favourite Manga Dragon Ball Z	I still say you can go by the Anime and still have Ultimate Boo > Chibi Boo. I feel there is just too much evidence saying this, where there isn't as much saying Chibi Boo is stronger.
	Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.


Alex D. Boss	Jun 3 2014, 07:59 PM Post #93
Posts: 8,688 Group: Probation Member #8,536 Joined: November 8, 2012 Gender Male Country Canada	I can use GT logic (Goku w***ing overhype logic), and it still says Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Goku , lol.



Nanho	Jun 10 2014, 05:11 PM Post #94
Posts: 464 Group: Probation Member #8,818 Joined: January 6, 2013	Still busy but will post to keep this thread alive until I can get time to have a proper debate about this. Nanho May 28 2014, 12:49 AM Of course I'll stick with buu being slightly stronger as it better helps my debate. Stark Jun 3 2014, 04:13 PM he thing is, you only believe what you want to believe. I believe whats most logical.. Quote: despite there being more evidence that points to Goku > Pure Buu The fact that Goku had the overall advantage in their fight I already explained, by jumping on goku>kid buu just based on how the fight happened, your completely disregarding vegetas comments during the fight which were there for clarification, and his remarks later during his fight with kid, which strongly indicated kid was actually stronger than ssj3goku. Quote: and the fact that Goku could obliterate Pure Buu, obviously prove SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu. Your still neglecting several important facts: 1/Buu weak durability. Almost anyone close in strengh can do damage. And its shown to us time and time again by the author. so this is something we should consider when making a deduction on his/their overall strength; there are several scenes that show this: a/ vegeta being weaker (or far weaker, which ever one you believe) blasting fat buu which observably caused buu some suffering b/ ssj gotenks head butting super buu which clearly affected buu more than gotenks c/ vegeta blasting kid buu in half 2/ Its heavily implied as being an amp attack, you know an attack like what goku and vegeta used against cell nearly killing him despite cell being stronger. 3/He needed a minute to accomplish this. And thats improbable on his own. Quote: Evil Buu on the other hand is in a completely different league than Goku and Vegeta. Evil Buu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku Seeing how Goku stated that they're no match for his strength. No match = suggesting Evil Buu will stomps both of them, something Pure Buu obviously was unable to do. No match can mean anything from ''>(/stronger, not by much)'' to ''>>>>(Stomp)''; And its more than likely he was factoring in buus regeneration ability/stamina (which adds to his overall strength) as well. That measured with the short sustainability/weakness of his ssj3 form.. btw, I'm curious how the viz manga tranlsates this, could someone be kind and post it; I may just concede depending on how thats translated. Quote: They didn't know what they were diving into. As I said, Goku only knew Buu's abilities (regeneration, stamina, durability etc), he had absolutely no idea what Pure Buu was capable of. Still doesnt say why hes uncertain of doing anything.. Quote: Eh no, because that obviously plays a role in this too. I take the entire Buu arc into consideration, while you only seem to care about the last bit and ignore everything prior to that. Goku had a good gauge of the power the Fusion Dance provides. Evil Buu isn't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and SSJ3 Goku isn't even remotely close to SSJ3 Gotenks' strength, let alone equal to him. Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: "If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye...!" Goku: "It's alright, I don't think he'll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy..." Note: Goku actually never told Buu this. Goku who was able to fight evenly with Pure Buu is surpassed by SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT), albeit we don't know how much. SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) is stated to not stand a chance in hell against Evil Buu. Gotenks trains inside the RoSaT and his powers increase significantly, but he's still no match for Evil Buu. He had to use SSJ3 to fight him. Funny, you say you take the entire buu arc into consideration but completely disregard this scene: Spoiler: click to toggle There you have goku saying hes risking fusion. Which contradicts your point about him knowing how strong they will be. also: Quote: feats > statements ssj3 Goku as well as super buu was shown to be sensed on kais planet, while ssj gotenks wasnt... Quote: Goku knew very well that Vegeta wouldn't want to fuse with him again, hell that's something he knew before they even fused in the first place. At that point he felt vegeta may reconsider (which is why he attempted persuading him)But later realized (after being rejected several times) vegeta would rather die than fuse again... I dont see why this is so hard to comprehend. Quote: Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5 Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain't suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Buu] ain't merged anymore either…“ ^Clearly one of the reason why he didn't want to fuse. obviously hes talking about ''fairness''; kid buu is a single being now, them fusing or teaming up would go against what they believe is a a fair fight. Naked Snake Jun 3 2014, 04:51 PM Opens topic again You can't have Goku and Gohan in the same league. There are two options; a) Goku is massively stronger than Gohan, as Pure Boo > Boohan b) Gohan is massively stronger than Goku, as Evil Boo > Pure Boo There's no two ways about it; you either accept the evidence that Gohan's vastly superior to Goku, or you argue for the viewpoint that Goku vastly superior to Gohan Why not? and I dont see anything wrong with this chain: gohan=/>kid buu>super buu>/= ssj3 goku/ssj3gotenks Gohan being far stronger or even moderately stronger doesnt make any sense when you have statements like these: Context: Vegeta makes the wish for everyone to be revived Goku: I know you revived gohan and gotenks so they can help us fight the boys. Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6 Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!” Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5 Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here,then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”



+ Pointer	Jun 10 2014, 06:28 PM Post #95
... Posts: 7,062 Group: Elite Member Member #8,812 Joined: January 5, 2013 Gender Male	If you want to prove that ssj3 goku is stronger than super Buu canonically You will fail badly



+ Majin Vegeta	Jun 10 2014, 07:52 PM Post #96
The resident GT fan! Posts: 8,522 Group: Elite Member Member #9,206 Joined: March 17, 2013 Gender Male Country Greece Favourite Anime DragonBall/Z/GT, Code Geass,Attack on Titan, Death Note, Naruto What Browser do you use? Safari Favourite Manga DragonBall/Z, Naruto, Death Note, Yugioh!	Quote: Still busy but will post to keep this thread alive until I can get time to have a proper debate about this. To be honest there's no arguement in the first place, there should be no debate about this at all. Quote: I believe whats most logical.. Then I guess you agree with us? Quote: I already explained, by jumping on goku>kid buu just based on how the fight happened, your completely disregarding vegetas comments during the fight which were there for clarification, and his remarks later during his fight with kid, which strongly indicated kid was actually stronger than ssj3goku. Please show me the quote, I don't exactly know which one you mean Quote: 1/Buu weak durability. Almost anyone close in strengh can do damage. And its shown to us time and time again by the author. so this is something we should consider when making a deduction on his/their overall strength; there are several scenes that show this: a/ vegeta being weaker (or far weaker, which ever one you believe) blasting fat buu which observably caused buu some suffering b/ ssj gotenks head butting super buu which clearly affected buu more than gotenks c/ vegeta blasting kid buu in half 2/ Its heavily implied as being an amp attack, you know an attack like what goku and vegeta used against cell nearly killing him despite cell being stronger. 3/He needed a minute to accomplish this. And thats improbable on his own. 1) I don't really see you're point here, bullets can go passed Super Buu's body, so would that mean Farmer with Shotgun > Super Buu's durability? The point is there is andirect statement that Goku can defeat Kid Buu at FP but was just playing games, you completly ignore what the author gave you because you like it. 2) I could agree with this. 3) No its not, again you ignore statements because you like it lol Quote: No match can mean anything from ''>(/stronger, not by much)'' to ''>>>>(Stomp)''; And its more than likely he was factoring in buus regeneration ability/stamina (which adds to his overall strength) as well. That measured with the short sustainability/weakness of his ssj3 form.. btw, I'm curious how the viz manga tranlsates this, could someone be kind and post it; I may just concede depending on how thats translated. Are you joking? No match doesn't mean ~> that's absurd that's rivalring range. Take Namek for example, Dodoria was stated to be no match for Vegeta, and Vegeta stomped him. Afterwards it was stated that Zarbon AND Dodoria together could take on Vegeta, even though he can stomp both of them individually, together they could take him. In this case Goku says that Begeta and himself combine are no match for him. And show me one single piece of evidence he was factoring Buu's regeneration, that's again you're opinion no proof whatsoever. Quote: Funny, you say you take the entire buu arc into consideration but completely disregard this scene: Spoiler click to toggle There you have goku saying hes risking fusion. Which contradicts your point about him knowing how strong they will be. Of course he's risking fusion, the future if the entire world could be in stake, even if Gotenks was stronger than Fat Buu the planet is still in danger, who knows what Buu is capable off. And for further support when SSJ Gotenks was born no one and I mean NO ONE questions he's strenght nor disagrees with what Goku says. Quote: ssj3 Goku as well as super buu was shown to be sensed on kais planet, while ssj gotenks wasnt... Ok there's no statement that SSJ3 Gotenks was sensed either, and that Gotenks was far stronger than the Super Buu that was sensed across the universe. So doesn't matter. Quote: obviously hes talking about ''fairness''; kid buu is a single being now, them fusing or teaming up would go against what they believe is a a fair fight. Is that a joke? Do you seriously think that Goku or Vegeta for the matter, would be fair because he is a single being now? When he was Super Buu what? They lost that fairness and then suddenly remeber it against Kid Buu? Lol Quote: Why not? and I dont see anything wrong with this chain: gohan=/>kid buu>super buu>/= ssj3 goku/ssj3gotenks Gohan being far stronger or even moderately stronger doesnt make any sense when you have statements like these: Context: Vegeta makes the wish for everyone to be revived Goku: I know you revived gohan and gotenks so they can help us fight the boys. Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6 Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!” Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5 Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here,then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.” No it does t work at all, SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu. You do realise you are contradicting you're own statements right? You say Gohan and Gotenks didn't go to fight against Kid Buu cause they were weaker but then you have Mystic Gohan > Kid Buu? It was made clear by Vegeta himsel that the earthlings must learn to protect themshelfs, and not relying on anyone else. I'm done lol
	"Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!" Majin Vegeta


Event Horizon	Jun 11 2014, 12:14 AM Post #97
エンペラー Posts: -894,312 Group: Elite Four Member #7,966 Joined: July 18, 2012	Oh God, we're still doing this? This is not even a debate, and it hasn't been from the beginning. This is just you refusing to change your mind. You believe what's most logical? Obviously you have some strange logic then, seeing how you're literally the only one who believes Pure Buu > Evil Buu, and not only on this forum. Why are you trying so hard to over complicate things? When people say "no match for his strength", they generally mean that they don't stand a chance. Goku and Vegeta didn't stand a chance against Evil Buu. Goku made that clear as freaking day, by saying that without Fusion, they'd definitely be done in. Without Fusion, Evil Buu would definitely kill both of them. We're no match for his strength + Without Fusion, we will definitely be done in = They don't stand a chance. Plain and simple. And your point is? It's an Amp attack, but feats STILL show (which you seem to disregard completely) that Goku was still able to fight Pure Buu, he even landed more hits on him. If Pure Buu was so strong like you make him out to be. He'd do to Goku, what he did to Vegeta and Good Buu - destroy them. Yet Pure Buu obviously wasn't able to destroy Goku, heavily suggesting they're close in power. Again, feats show that Goku was more than enough to handle Pure Buu. Literally the only reason he "lost" was because Pure Buu was easily able to outlast Goku. Pure Buu has nearly infinite stamina and could regenerate anything, making him as good as new. Goku's SSJ3 form has massive strain, and Goku has extremely limited stamina in that form. Doesn't take a genius to see that even if Goku's stronger, Pure Buu would easily be able to outlast him. Imagine what Goku would do if he also had nearly infinite stamina and could regenerate, making him good as new. Obviously it's a risky thing, even if they're stronger. I mean, who the hell knows what will happen? Ultimate Gohan was far stronger than Evil Buu, yet he failed to kill Buu. Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: "With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they'll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme." Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Buu Goku: "Don't worry. If he perfects the technique he's trying now, he definitely ain't gonna lose." Mostly everything about SSJ Gotenks (Pre) was off panel, so that's no surprise and it doesn't prove anything really. Then they watched the fight with that magic ball thingy, so there was no need for another statement, about him being able to sense Gotenks. Your chain is completely flawed. Evil Buu isn't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, SSJ3 Goku is not even remotely close to SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT), let alone SSJ3 Gotenks. Pure Buu is inferior to all of them, Ultimate Gohan is several times stronger than them. Spoiler: click to toggle 1. Fat Buu fights SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, who was equal to SSJ2 Goku, and crushes him. Vegeta resorts to self-destructing because he's so far below Buu and sees no other choice. We've got this so far: Fat Buu > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P7.1-2 Context: after Vegeta blasts a hole through Buu's chest Buu: "That hurt...a little bit...hehehe..." Vegeta: "...Are you immortal?..." Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P1.3 Context: after Buu's big attack that makes a crater Vegeta: "...Wh-what the?...Ridiculous; he's st-strong, and to top it off immortal too...Damn it all..." Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P2.3 Piccolo: "Even Ve-Vegeta absolutely can't scratch that thing..." Chapter: 467 (DBZ 273), P1.2-3 Trunks: "N-no! We'll fight too! You'll be killed on your own, papa! We'll definitely be able to defeat him if we 3 do it together!" Vegeta: "It's no use...No matter how many of us go at him...Not if we fight in the ordinary way..." Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.1 Piccolo: "Just as Kaioshin feared, Majin Buu's strength surpasses our imagination...If we leave him alone like this, then without a doubt all life on not merely the Earth, but throughout the entire universe will be wiped out..." Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.6-7 Goku: "Damn it! If either Vegeta or Gohan were alive, maybe we could have managed something..." Piccolo: "...No, it probably wouldn't matter how many people went at him...He wasn't at that level..." Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P10.7 Context: after Goten and Trunks question Goku's power and Piccolo gets mad Goku: "It's alright, Piccolo...I really am weak. It don't look like I can beat Majin Buu, not even a little bit." 2. SSJ3 Goku stalls Buu so Trunks can get the Dragon Radar. When Goku returns to the Lookout, he tells Piccolo he "probably" couldn't have beaten Buu. Piccolo is visibly skeptical, but for now, we've got this: Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: "Goku...There's something I want to ask you while I've got the chance...[ ] ...That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier...if you had gone all-out, wouldn't you have been able to defeat Majin Buu?...How about it, am I wrong?" Goku: "Nah, I don't know...When it comes to Majin Buu's strength, it's like a lie...I think that I probably couldn't have won..." 3. Goku introduces Fusion and states twice that if the boys perfect it, they'll definitely be able to beat Buu. The boys could only go SSJ, so that's what Goku assumed they'd beat Buu with, otherwise he would have stated they could beat him even without the use of the form. Also, he tells Piccolo that he told Buu a stronger fighter than him would come in 2 days - however Goku only said it to Piccolo and never actually told this to Buu, but Piccolo doesn't know that. Now we have: SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: "With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they'll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme." Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Buu Goku: "Don't worry. If he perfects the technique he's trying now, he definitely ain't gonna lose." Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: "If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye...!" Goku: "It's alright, I don't think he'll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy..." Note: Goku actually never told Buu this. 4. Goku leaves and the boys finally get Fusion right. Gotenks forms in Base first, and right away Piccolo tells him he's not strong enough to even think about beating Buu. Gotenks cockily disobeys Piccolo and leaves to fight Buu, but returns after a prompt butt-kicking, cementing Piccolo's statement. Although he gets his butt kicked, he was confident in fighting Buu, and Krillin and Yamcha also seemed to think he stood a chance. In order for Gotenks to feel confident, he would have to be comfortably ahead of SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and Goku. We have: SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: "Hehhehheh...Aren't you underestimating me? Like this, I'm more than enough to defeat Majin Buu." Piccolo: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don't know anything about Majin Buu's fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there's still absolutely no way you'd be able to win!" Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5 Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Buu Kuririn: "He-he's pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Buu]..." Yamcha: "Ye-yeah...He sure seemed pretty confident..." Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3 Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Buu Gotenks: "I got the tar beaten out of me..." Piccolo: "Alright, your fight with Majin Buu is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!" 5. The boys then fuse as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo is in awe of SSJ Gotenks' power, but questions his speed; notice he doesn't question Gotenks' power, and he merely asked for a "little" demonstration of his movement. When Gotenks flies off and Piccolo finally catches up to him, Gotenks flaunts his speed and flies off again, but Piccolo shows no fear except that Gotenks only has 1 minute left to fight. Since nothing thus far contradicts it, we have: SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Boo > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3 Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time Piccolo: "...Yeah...Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little" Gotenks: "Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I'll do it on the ground." Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8 Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks Gotenks: "You're slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh...So you can't tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power...! ...Which is to say that the test is over, and I'm going to go take care of that annoying Majin Buu right away..." Gotenks takes off Piccolo: "H-hey, you idiot! Kuh...! Wh-what a ***head...H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit...!" 6. Evil Buu forms and Piccolo immediately rushes the boys into the Room of Spirit and Time, telling Krillin that they can't win as they are now. He also states Evil Buu is superior to Fat Buu in all aspects, including strength. We have: Initial Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5 Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time Piccolo: "Can't you tell...?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can't win, no doubt about it...! Tell them that if they don't want to die while they're still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can...!" Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6 Trunks: "Huh!? That's Majin Buu!?" Goten: "He-he really has changed..." Piccolo: "It's not just his appearance...Everything about him is definitely greater than before..." 7. The boys train for about 15 days (7 hours in the outside world). While still training, Trunks states that even with "regular Fusion," they should be able to beat Buu. When Base Gotenks actually forms, Piccolo thinks they might have a chance. Logic be damned, this puts Base Gotenks above his previous Super Saiyan power by a decent margin at least. Initial Evil Buu ~ Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5 Context: Trunks doesn't like the idea of fighting Buu as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start Trunks: "I think...that we've already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we'll be about equal with Majin Buu..." Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5 Context: seeing Gotenks after he'd trained in the Room of Spirit and Time Piccolo: "He-he really is different...! He really has greatly powered up...! Th-this just might...!" 8. It turns out Goku was right that Buu's Ki was "like a lie," and Base Gotenks is promptly shoveled off the pavement after being humiliated; so Evil Buu was heavily underestimated. It takes Super Saiyan 3 for Gotenks to actually damage Buu. Near the end of their fight, it appears as if Gotenks is about to finish Buu, but time runs out and he splits back into Goten and Trunks. However, according to Evil Buu himself, only Gohan had more power than him. Evil Buu later states to Gohan that he felt Gohan's Ki on the Kai planet and decided to wait for him. However, current feats still show that SSJ3 Gotenks is the superior one. So we have: SSJ3 Gotenks >/>= Super Boo > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes** Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3 Context: after Gotenks blasts Buu with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him Gotenks: "Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened." Buu comes out Gotenks: "...He ain't weakened...This really pisses me off!" Piccolo: "N-no...He is weakened...I don't know about physically, but he's weakened a little mentally...! Th-this is the first time...that he's fought someone strong like you...He's feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own..." Gotenks: "Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Buu's freaked out, huh!? That's right! My strength ain't half-assed! I'm the best in the universe!" Piccolo: "Don't let your guard down! He'll be coming at you frantically now...!" Gotenks: "Dahhahhah, that's problem, no problem at all! That's just what I was hoping for!" Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P2.3-4 Buu: "Far, far, waa~~aay far away, I felt a strong power...I won't allow anyone to have a power stronger than mine..." Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4 Gohan: "...That was dirty, you bastard...You ingested the two of them into yourself..." Buu: "It's your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest...When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy...In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself...Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that 'Super Gotenks' squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken..." 9. Gohan, his potential freshly released thanks to Elder Kaioshin, ends up whooping Buu's candy *** all over the tri-state area, so Buu self-destructs and the fun begins. Something else to note is that Gohan asks how the can transform into the 'mightiest of warriors' and the context states that he has transformed into the 'mightiest of warriors'. giving us this: Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >/>= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P1.3, P2.4 Context: after Gohan beats up on Buu Gohan: "You can't win..." [ ] Gohan: "I see...So you tried testing your power just to be sure, and I really was above you...That's too bad, Majin Buu." Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2 Gohan: "Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?" Elder Kaioshin: "You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You'll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai." Gohan: "The gist of Super Saiyan...I-I got it...!" Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3 Context: after Gohan transforms into the 'mightiest of warriors' Goku: "It re-really is incredible...It's super-duper...! Absolutely unbelievable...Your appearance has hardly changed...And you ain't even a Super Saiyan...Yet you've been taken to su-such an extreme..." Elder Kaioshin: "Hmph, transforming isn't good. That Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]..." Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P3.2 Context: Buu says he'll kill Gohan Gohan: "You're the one who should best know just how impossible that is..." Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P7.4 Context: after Buu disappears Trunks: "Even if he really is still alive, it doesn't matter! That jerk was helpless against Gohan!" 10. Buu absorbs SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo to become Gotenks-Buu, and proves himself quite superior to Gohan, so much so that Gohan resorts to stalling in a cave until the Fusion runs out. Another important tidbit is that he states himself to be the most powerful Buu to date. We now have this: Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >/>= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P11.1 Buu: "...What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn't it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin." Chapter: 500 (DBZ 306), P6.4, P7.1 Context: after Gohan and Buu fight a bit Buu: "What's the matter? You're erasing your ki and hiding in a place like that...Are you trying to stall for time? Meaning that just from that you seem to have realized...That like this, you're absolutely no match for me..." Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5 Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Buu Elder Kaioshin: "I hate to say it, but I don't think you could win against this current Majin Buu even if the two of you went at him together..." Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P5.6 Buu: "...What, did you plan on coming to save everyone? You idiot...Can't you tell that I'm in a fundamentally different dimension than the Majin Buu from back then?" Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P7.1 Context: talking to Goku after knocking out Tenshinhan Buu: "...That guy just now was apparently quite a master, but he was reduced to that state in just 1 one kick...You're making some worthless boasts...Frankly, no matter what you try, you absolutely won't be able to even inflict damage on me." 11. Gotenks defuses inside Buu (Piccolo-Buu), reducing his power so much that now Gohan can beat him again. We have: Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5 Goku: "Hahha—ah! Piccolo's coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power's fallen a whole lot. Cheh...I'm a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own..." 12. Buu absorbs Gohan (Gohan-Buu) and leaves Goku dropping chocolate soldiers all over the battlefield. Once again, Buu states himself to be the most powerful Buu to date, so we get: Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1 Buu: "Fu...fuhahahaha...! This is great! I've powered up even more than before! And what's more, now there's no time limit!" Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P2.5-6 Context: after Buu absorbs Vegetto Elder Kaioshin: "...Don't you think it's a little strange? ...Each time Majin Buu has absorbed a warrior up to now, his power has gone up and his appearance has changed...But this time..." Kaioshin: "He hasn't cha-changed...! Wh-what's that mean!?" Note: as we soon learn, Vegetto's barrier prevented him from being truly absorbed. Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P3.5 Context: after Buu 'absorbs' Vegetto but nothing happens Boo: "Hmm...Well, at any rate, I absorbed him. I have now become the strongest majin; without a doubt, there is nobody throughout the various worlds who compares to me...That's fine..." 13. Goku and Vegeta use the Potara earrings to make Vegetto, who practically crucifies Buu, giving us this: SSJ Vegetto > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3 Context: as Vegetto beats up on Buu Kaioshin-Kibito: "H-he's strong!!! Majin Buu there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible...!!" Elder Kaioshin: "Idiot, it's because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What's more, two rivals have joined together. That's definitely strongest." Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P1.2 Context: after Vegetto outclasses Buu Vegetto: "...Well, don't feel too bad. Even I'm surprised. To think that I'd be able to make this big a fool out of you." Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P5.2 Context: after Vegetto destroys the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack Vegetto: "Did you really think that kind of technique would work on me? A child thought that technique up. You're pretty desperate, aren't you?" Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P6.6 Context: Vegetto blocks Buu's attacks with his legs Vegetto: "Hey, hey! What's the matter!? My legs alone are more than enough to deal with the likes of you!" Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P9.5-6 Context: after Buu turns Vegetto into a candy ball, and candy-Vegetto promptly hits him Vegetto: "Sorry, my bad. Unfortunately for you Buu, it seems that somehow my strength hasn't changed, despite me turning into this. What will you do? Your opponent is the world's strongest candy ball! This is bad for you, isn't it? I'm so small that it's hard to attack me." 14. Goku and Vegeta defuse inside Buu. They detach the boys and Piccolo from inside Buu and Vegeta wants to blast his way out, but Goku quickly tells him that they're no match even for Evil Buu. Nothing's changed from before, so we still have this: SSJ Vegetto > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5 Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Buu Goku: "Hehhe~~eh! With this, Buu's power should have fallen significantly! We're almost there! See, see: the size of his Ki is completely different than before!" Vegeta: "Alright! Let's blast out of here and escape!" Goku: "Wait! Even though Buu has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!" Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1 Context: still talking about how they're no match for Buu Goku: "...But there is one way we can win!" Vegeta: "You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!" Goku: "Huh? You know about it?" Vegeta: "I saw it from the afterlife...You've got to be joking! You think I'd perform those ugly poses...?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I'm not going to merge with you a second time." Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5 Context: after evil Buu appears inside his own body Vegeta: "Da...damn it...! Th-this could be bad..." Goku: "Di-didn't I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!" 15. They manage to get out of Buu's body after detaching the innocent Buu (Good Buu), which deforms Evil Buu into a buff version of himself (Buff Buu). Goku questions if his Ki is increasing, so we have this: SSJ Vegetto > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan >/< Buff Buu >/< SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Byy reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: "H-hey...Vegeta...His ki is increasing, ain't it...!?" 16. Buff Buu continues deforming and reverts to the original Buu - Pure Buu. Vegeta makes a comment on Buu's size, and Goku rejoices that they've "done it," which in context means they've weakened Buu to a level that they can handle without merging. Since they were deciding on who would fight Buu first on the Kai planet, this points to Buu being below even SSJ2 Vegeta's level; if Buu was emitting power on par with a SSJ3, I doubt Vegeta would have any qualms letting Goku go first. So we have this: SSJ Vegetto > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan >/< Buff Buu >/< SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku > Pure Buu Supporting Quotes Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Buu reverts to his pure form Goku: "..." Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Context: 'He's shrunk' refers to Buu's body, not his ki. Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5 Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara but he refuses it Goku: "...Like I thought, these...just ain't suited for us...Even though you went out of your way to hand 'em over...We want to fight with only our own power. I'm sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now...But he ain't merged anymore either..." Elder Kaioshin: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It's not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Buu, you know!" Vegeta: "...Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true...Saiyan." Kaioshins: "...!" Goku: "It's alright. I'm tellin' ya, don't worry. He can't come all the way here. We'll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we'll use the dragonballs later..." Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P10.2 Context: as Goku and Vegeta prepare to fight pure Buu Elder Kaioshin: "Fr-from the looks of it, they don't intend to perform Fusion either...Shi-*...! Saiyans are so troublesome...!" Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.3 Context: as Goku and Vegeta play rock-paper-scissors to decide who fights Buu Elder Kaioshin: "Th-those dimwits! Th-they intend to fight one at a time?! They're not gonna fight together?!" 17. Goku wins the game and faces Buu first. He transforms right to Super Saiyan 3 and a nigh-equal battle unfolds between the two (the anime goes crazy with the filler in this battle). Goku stops for a moment and Vegeta tells him that at full power, he should be able to completely obliterate Buu. Goku says he's been trying but hasn't had the chance yet. He also states he could have beaten Fat Buu but chose not to, giving us this: SSJ Vegetto > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan >/< Buff Buu >/< SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Fat Buu > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6 Context: as Goku prepares to fight Buu Goku: "Alrii~~iight. I'd better go all out right from the start...! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go 'poof'..." Vegeta: "Let me see this 'Super Saiyan 3' thing with my own eyes..." Goku: "Is that alright? You just might not get your turn...I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Buu, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3...However, I wanted the young guys to manage something...For the Earth's sake too..." Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Buu with your ki once you gather it with all your might...!" Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." Vegeta: "Eh?" Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute." Vegeta: "One minute?!" Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!" Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." 18. Goku begins charging up and Vegeta faces Buu, but gets squashed without even hitting Buu once. As Buu is about to hurt Mr. Satan, he stops and spits out Good Buu. The two fight and even though Good Buu quickly becomes a rag doll, he does better and lasts longer than Vegeta did, even considering his regeneration powers which were going down since he was fighting another Buu. This also gives us a good place for Pure Evil Buu (the gray skinny one), since he was stated to be stronger than Good Buu but couldn't be stronger than Fat Buu, giving us this: SSJ Vegetto > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan >/< Buff Buu >/< SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Fat Buu > Pure Evil Buu > Good Buu ~ Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3 Narrator: "Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Buu had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Buu, who came flying out...In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Buu and an innocent Majin Buu..." Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4 Context: as the two Buus fight Narrator: "The original Majin Buu had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one..." Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P12.4 Context: after good Buu fights pure Buu a little Good Buu: "...Uh oh...I kinda can't win..." Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P6.1 Context: as pure Buu beats up on good Buu Goku: "Th-this is bad...this way it's only a matter of time before he's done in..." Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P5.3 Context: as pure Buu beats up on good Buu some more Vegeta: "...This is bad...Have you noticed, Kakarot?...The fatso's power is falling...If it's Buu against Buu, then he could take damage..." Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P3.1 Context: as pure Buu continues to beat up on good Buu Vegeta: "***...! Th-this is bad! The fat one is on the brink of death..." 19. Goku finally completes the Genki-Dama and fires it, but because of his diminished stamina, Pure Buu is able to hold it back. Once Goku's stamina is restored by Porunga, he's able to push the attack and finish off Buu for good. All in all, we end up with this: SSJ Vegetto > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Ultimate Gohan >/< Buff Buu >/< SSJ3 Gotenks >/>=/>/< Piccolo-Buu >= Evil Boo > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Fat Buu > Pure Evil Buu > Good Buu ~ Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku



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