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| KidKu vs SSJ3 Gotenks | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 21 2014, 07:18 PM (6,348 Views) | |
| Nanho | Jun 1 2014, 05:25 AM Post #76 |
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Herms huh? sorry for my ignorance here but how credible is he? And clearly that piece doesnt fit well with the pic in that panel.
You seriously dont see it? let me put the two scenes close together for you then: Initially: Goku with a overconfident douchebag smile '' I think we can handle that''(this translation better matches his expression) or if u want to go with hermes improper translation of this: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Then later: Goku ''I dont know if we can do anything but less try anyways'' by already sensing someone and then saying you dont know if you can even scratch him would obviously imply you perceive ur opponent to be far stronger than/superior to you.... Goku wasnt going to use fusion regardless. He knew very well Vegeta was never going to fuse with him again. Also his comment ''Thats not how we do things'' has to mean something. right? With kid buu he had really no choice but to come up with a solo strategy to defeat him. Your the one here tying to complicate things when my points make them very clear; None contradicted. You didnt, but you obviously inferred it.. Your forgetting he watched the fight with super and gotenks and also was apart of vegetto who fought gohan buu? which pretty much explains why he fought kid buu so knowledgeably (at the start of the fight for example, he fired a kamehameha knowing buu would disintegrate and reform right away and so thinking ahead went behind him the very second he reformed)
Which attacks? the ones that disinterested him? they all clearly (from buus expressions) caught him by surprise.
There was nothing kid buu did in that fight to suggest hes superior in those attributes to super or even fat buu.
Its clear because you only like to see things in black and white. Completely disregarding the context. Anyways this is a far better proof for who is actually superior: 3. Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7 Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “ Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “ Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “ Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…” Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…” And this coming after super turns to kid.... Edited by Nanho, Jun 1 2014, 06:07 AM.
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| Venato | Jun 1 2014, 06:22 AM Post #77 |
The Saiyan Hunter
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Herms use a direct translation, not an "adaptation" like the Viz translation, so it's more accurate. |
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| SSJ | Jun 1 2014, 02:56 PM Post #78 |
 
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You may carry on with this debate, it appears that I have misread something. Edit: here is the Viz quote on that, Nanho. https://twitter.com/dxfan619/status/473120677357039617 Edited by SSJ, Jun 1 2014, 03:24 PM.
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| Event Horizon | Jun 1 2014, 05:16 PM Post #79 |
エンペラー
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Obviously the statement fits with the panel. I checked other translations and something very similar was stated right there. What Gogetto said, Herms directly translates it, it's not an adaptation like the one translated by Viz.
As you said yourself, Goku watched the fights between Evil Buu and Gotenks/Gohan. Goku already knew what Buu was capable of. Goku wondering if he could do anything, could simply mean that he was unsure if he could really damage him, seeing how Buu could regenerate from every attack he got hit by. And seeing how he later stated Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.1 Context: after Goku fights pure Buu for awhile “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn't fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…” suggest that, he was indeed wondering if he was able to damage him at all, and not because he was stronger. Even if Vegeta wouldn't fuse with Goku again, Goku NEVER stated that they couldn't win without Fusion, like he did against Evil Buu. Yeah, obviously I'm trying to complicate things, when I use nothing but manga logic and quotes.  Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5 Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Buu back to regular evil Buu Goku: "Hehhe~~eh! With this, Buu's power should have fallen significantly! We're almost there! See, see: the size of his Ki is completely different than before!" Vegeta: "Alright! Let's blast out of here and escape!" Goku: "Wait! Even though Buu has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!" Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Buu with your Ki once you gather it with all your might...!" Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." Vegeta: "Eh?" Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather Ki for about one minute." Vegeta: "One minute?!" Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!" Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." Goku flatout states that they're no match for Evil Buu's strength, and then goes from not wanting to fight Evil Buu without Fusion, to fighting Pure Buu evenly and it's outright stated that he's capable of finishing him off. It really can't get more straight forward than that. As far as I remember, Pure Buu didn't bother to dodge any of Goku's physical attacks and I didn't say that Pure Buu's abilities were better than Evil Buu's or any other form of Buu. I'm merely saying that Pure Buu showed that he had insane durability, stamina and regenerative powers. Or do you disagree? Btw, feats > statements. Again, Goku SHOWED that he was more than capable of fighting Pure Buu. Pretty much the reason he "lost" the fight, was because he overestimated his own energy and time when it came to his SSJ3 transformation. Which we also see in one of the quotes above, where Goku pretty much says "I thought I could do better". Edited by Event Horizon, Jun 1 2014, 05:53 PM.
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| Goddess Ultimecia | Jun 1 2014, 05:28 PM Post #80 |
 
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What's wrong with manga logic and quotes? That's the only relevant thing when it comes to this argument in canonicity. If you're arguing Kid Boo is stronger in the Anime we already know that, trying to apply "Anime" logic in the manga is downright absurd. As the statements all point to Goku and Kid Boo being of a far less tier than Super Boo. |
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| Nanho | Jun 3 2014, 02:34 AM Post #81 |
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Tired as ... but still going to have a go.Obviously? you dont see the gokus douchebag expression which corresponds with vegetas arrogant expression? They look like two bullies making fun of a nerdy kid. And that quote ''we did it! this way we just might manage something'' doesnt at all fit it. The one I posted better fits. How about providing the quotes for the other translations. So he does make a lot of mistakes.. No, because he said later on he could have defeated fat buu if he wanted to. So its more than just kids regeneration that made him doubtful of even having a chance; He was pretty much unsure how strong kid buu actually was before they fought. And vegeta saying ''hes stronger than he imagine'' could also mean goku struggled figuring his strength as well, unless you think vegetas ki sensing ability is piss poor compared with gokus , which was never shown to be the case. Moreover, vegeta didnt seem to know his strength for sure until he himself fought him, and most likely based his judgment on the fact kid buu was just keeping up with goku at ssj3: Spoiler: click to toggle Now vegeta already made it clear before this, that he underestimated him and would be killed easily and then proceeds to get beaten i.e theres no need for further emphasis here(vegeta getting his butt wiped plus that comment) , its not at all important either. So what purpose does this comment vegeta makes while getting his *** handed to him have? Is it to imply kid is even stronger than he thought just before? I believe so. Also the last part of that comment makes things interesting (''how has kakkarot fought this monster'') It makes the fight between goku and kid buu look more clear, as he questions how goku even at ssj3 was able to fight kid buu. It proves goku was fighting out of his mind just to be even with buu. kid> goku .Why would he? it was never an option (to him) anymore..
You complicate things by disregarding the context and neglecting certain fact that prove you wrong. Is it so hard to take another look at the manga. All the attacks that actually hit buu, clearly hit him by surprise.
So didnt super buu show he had ''insane'' stamina and regenertive powers too?? Again goku wasnt shown to overestimate his energy untill after he gathered ki. And the only thing he speaks of then is his inability to sustain the form; he was surprised only when he started loosing ki.. nothing to do with him gathering ki. So its safe to assume he knew before thats how long it would take, and the only difficulty he had was weakening buu and maybe getting the chance as buu just kept coming back.. its more clear when you consider how its worded: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather Ki for about one minute." also I'd like to point out, just for consideration, that there are several scenes that shows he knew damn well before this fight that his ssj3 form was very hard to sustain: Spoiler: click to toggle Spoiler: click to toggle Maybe he forgot? or did I misread something? ''it uses too much energy for this world of time'' what does this actually mean? hmm...
No matter which translation, that explanation by the kai, the only ''actual'' fact given to us by akira via kai, proves kid buu is stronger. Unless someone is going to try and twist the meaning of the word difficult; There is no way a fighter (with pretty much the same abilities) far weaker(or even just weaker) than a previous fighter is going to come in and be more difficult. And then you have the tame thing. You also need to consider this explanation came directly after super turns to kid... and you also need to consider this is something made for children. so it should be very easily grasped. Edited by Nanho, Jun 3 2014, 03:31 AM.
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| Event Horizon | Jun 3 2014, 03:32 AM Post #82 |
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エンペラー
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 "I believe so".... You're just making up baseless assumptions and then you act like they prove anything. You questions Herms' translations, then goes on to use quotes from flawed translations from "Read Dragon Ball Online" websites.  Clearly he doesn't make a lot of mistakes, otherwise people would correct him a lot and they don't. Goku had already fought Fat Buu before though, he had some knowledge what he was capable of. He had yet to fight Pure Buu. He knew about Buu's abilities, but other than that, he had no idea what Pure Buu was capable of. I say it again, at no point did Goku outright say that Pure Buu turned out to be more powerful than he originally thought. Oh yeah, because your statements are the only ones that are correct. You completely disregard Goku's statements inside Buu, Goku's feats against Pure Buu and Vegeta's comment about Goku being able to completely obliterate Pure Buu. All of those points to Evil Buu > Pure Buu. Besides, if you go back a bit, SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) was stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku, who again was able to fight evenly with Pure Buu. Yet Gotenks had to train inside the RoSaT and had to use SSJ3 to even stand a chance against Evil Buu. You completely disregard all of that. I see no reason to argue with you anymore, it's clear as day that you're biased. <--- which is pretty much the reason why all the members stopped responding here. No need to waste time on fanboys who literally refuses to accept how it is. Quotations and feats from the Japanese manga show Evil Buu > Pure Buu. Again, I'll bring up the statements which you continuously seem to ignore. Goku doesn't want anything to do with Evil Buu, he outright states that they're no match for Evil Buu's strength. And despite Goku knowing that Vegeta wouldn't want to fuse again, he still literally begs Vegeta to fuse, otherwise Evil Buu will kill them. Goku then goes on to fight evenly with Pure Buu, he even lands more hits on Pure Buu. It's stated that he can obliterate Pure Buu once he gathers his Ki. It is as straight forward as it can possibly get. >Goku says they're no match for character A >Goku fights evenly with character B It would be completely illogical to say character B > character A Only logical answer; character A > character B Evil Buu > Pure Buu Now feel free to reply, but don't expect me to read it. Edited by Event Horizon, Jun 3 2014, 03:48 AM.
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| Nanho | Jun 3 2014, 02:47 PM Post #83 |
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Baseless?? so i didnt provide evidence? to which you are neglecting.. and obviously they prove kid buu> ssj3 goku. They're both flawed. I use which ever one best logically fits certain scenes. And just because I question hermes translation doesnt mean I believe Hermes translation is any less good than the other one(i believe the opposite actually). Or else i wouldnt have been using his translation also.. Irrelevant; Anyone with knowledge on Japanese culture, that understands and can speak the language fluently, and also speaks english well is good enough, regardless where its being posted. ''You don't have to "trust" Jake, but I think the amount of work he's done with us on the site is proof enough, and as others have said, errors are easily pointed out and corrected if necessary by other folks with the language chops.'' Still doesnt say why he doubted whether he could do anything, and why they both played rock paper scissors. Obviously they didnt know how strong he was/ what they were diving into. But clearly didnt want to go with no other far less risky option. Again unless you think vegeta cant sense ki/strengh as well as goku, theres really no other way of looking at that scene.
No, I'm not the author, so surely I can be thinking that... I already refuted those statements, if you would just take your time to read and properly consider them you'd realize.
Stated where?? And going off on a tangent here are we? Its obvious your struggling to counter my points(no offense!). Oh my, i thought we were debating here I'm sure I didnt say anything like kid buu is stronger just cause hes kid buu. every point I made are clearly derived from analyzing actual facts provided by the manga. I dont even like kid buu either; obviously, this(especially that part about other members) is a attempt (a very sad one at that) at trying to belittling me or my points. because clearly you cant think up any good counter argument.
Again you keep disregarding the context; You keep using ''him not wanting to use fusion'' disregarding what he said when fusion was suggested ''Thats not how we do things'' and ''vegeta doesn't want to fuse anyways''. Which is there to imply goku had a change of mind...implying he was never going to use fusion again and would rather come up with a strategy regardless.. (notice he makes no note on this buu being the reason why he doesnt want to use fusion). And that scene later on with the quote ''I dont know if we can do anything'' further backed by elder kai going crazy over them not using fusion would also imply their chances were very very slim if any. But still they didnt want to go with the far more easier option.. And I proved to you already that goku wasn't actually on the same level as kids power wise and was fighting out of his mind to be even with kid. other wise vegetas comments during the fight would be pointless which was there for clarification. and what he said during his fight with kid would be pointless as well. so this chain best fit: Gohan>/= Kid buu> super buu>/= ssj3 goku= ssjg3 gotenks This is further back by the statement provided by the author via kai and also backed by later comments: Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6 Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!” Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5 Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.” Hope you stick to ur word Edited by Nanho, Jun 3 2014, 04:02 PM.
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| + Majin Vegeta | Jun 3 2014, 02:59 PM Post #84 |
The resident GT fan!
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Seriously that is riduculous, how can you seriously believe that Kid Buu even touches Super Buu? You literally have statements and feats that are the other way around, you have SSJ Gotenks who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, man, he himself stated that out. SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu he also said that when he fought against Buu, if he had gone all out he would have trounced Kid Buu, he literally SAID IT. |
 "Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!" Majin Vegeta | |
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| Nanho | Jun 3 2014, 04:09 PM Post #85 |
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haha I post that prematurely by accident; damn touch screen! anyways I just edited it. |
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| Nanho | Jun 3 2014, 04:11 PM Post #86 |
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sorry, didnt intend to double post there; clicked on quote instead of edit, dammit whats wrong with me today.. Edited by Nanho, Jun 3 2014, 04:14 PM.
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| Event Horizon | Jun 3 2014, 04:13 PM Post #87 |
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エンペラー
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So you saw that I was posting. lol Nah, I'll continue just because I'm bored atm. Ehh, he just says that errors are easily pointed out and corrected if necessary. In no way does that mean that Herms make a lot of mistaken. IF he made a mistaken, people over on Kanzenshuu would point it out and correct it. There are quite the few members there that live in Japan and speak Japanese on a daily basis. And I don't think anybody has found a faulty translated line in his strength checker. The thing is, you only believe what you want to believe.
despite there being more evidence that points to Goku > Pure Buu The fact that Goku had the overall advantage in their fight and the fact that Goku could obliterate Pure Buu, obviously prove SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu. Goku's SSJ3 powers drains his stamina fast, while Pure Buu has nearly infinite stamina and can regenerate pretty much anything, making him good as new. Pure Buu was easily able to outlast Goku, despite Goku having the advantage. But let's say Goku did underestimate Pure Buu and it turns out that Pure Buu > Goku, it won't change a thing. Feats still show that Goku was able to keep up and fight Pure Buu, so Pure Buu wouldn't have been much higher than Goku. Evil Buu on the other hand is in a completely different league than Goku and Vegeta. Evil Buu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku Seeing how Goku stated that they're no match for his strength. No match = suggesting Evil Buu will stomps both of them, something Pure Buu obviously was unable to do. They didn't know what they were diving into. As I said, Goku only knew Buu's abilities (regeneration, stamina, durability etc), he had absolutely no idea what Pure Buu was capable of. Eh no, because that obviously plays a role in this too. I take the entire Buu arc into consideration, while you only seem to care about the last bit and ignore everything prior to that. Goku had a good gauge of the power the Fusion Dance provides. Evil Buu isn't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and SSJ3 Goku isn't even remotely close to SSJ3 Gotenks' strength, let alone equal to him. Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: "If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye...!" Goku: "It's alright, I don't think he'll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy..." Note: Goku actually never told Buu this. Goku who was able to fight evenly with Pure Buu is surpassed by SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT), albeit we don't know how much. SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) is stated to not stand a chance in hell against Evil Buu. Gotenks trains inside the RoSaT and his powers increase significantly, but he's still no match for Evil Buu. He had to use SSJ3 to fight him. SSJ3 Gotenks > Evil Buu > SSJ Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) >/>= SSJ3 Goku >/< Pure Buu and the gap is even bigger if you have Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT). Goku knew very well that Vegeta wouldn't want to fuse with him again, hell that's something he knew before they even fused in the first place. Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5 Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain't suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Buu] ain't merged anymore either…“ ^Clearly one of the reason why he didn't want to fuse. Edited by Event Horizon, Jun 3 2014, 06:05 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jun 3 2014, 04:51 PM Post #88 |
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Izanagi!
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*Opens topic again*    You can't have Goku and Gohan in the same league. There are two options; a) Goku is massively stronger than Gohan, as Pure Boo > Boohan b) Gohan is massively stronger than Goku, as Evil Boo > Pure Boo There's no two ways about it; you either accept the evidence that Gohan's vastly superior to Goku, or you argue for the viewpoint that Goku vastly superior to Gohan |
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| Alex D. Boss | Jun 3 2014, 05:57 PM Post #89 |
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Miles, I go with option 2. It makes more sense to me and makes me feel better. |
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| Event Horizon | Jun 3 2014, 06:06 PM Post #90 |
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エンペラー
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Option A = Anime Option B = Manga |
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| 0 users reading this topic | |
It was getting overwhelming. It serves as a one-stop-shop for as literal and contextually-filled-and-aware quotations as you could possibly need.
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