Naked Snake

May 27 2014, 10:00 PM

Conjecture.

Chapter: 511 (DBZ 317), P8.3-5, P10.4
Context: as Goku gathers ki, while Vegeta holds off pure Boo
Goku: “Just a little more…….!! Just a little bit more. Tough it out for me, Vegeta….!!”
Vegeta: “St…still not yet?...Hurry up…..!! I’ll be ki…..killed………..!!”
Goku: “Sh-s***…! It-it’s already over 1 minute, but…N-not yet! I still can’t wipe out Boo with this much…! [ ] …Da...Damn it……..!! …I haven’t gathered all the ki!! What’s going on? He…he’ll be killed…..!!!”

Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P1.6
Context: Vegeta asks Goku if he’s gathered enough ki to defeat Boo yet
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”

Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2
Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”

He outright states that he wasn't expecting the strain. The reason the ki began 'falling off' was because of the strain.

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but unless you were looking away during the entire fight, you'd see that Goku was fighting toe-to-toe with Pure Boo, with no indication that Pure Boo was suppressing.

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Regarding the point on Evil Boo, what's the issue? Goku mentions the Potara and how much easier it would've been, but he still believes that he can get the job done with his own attack.

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Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Would that be the one you're referring to? It seems to me like Goku's confident, and that confidence doesn't subside until he realises that he messed around too much in SSJ3.

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Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

All we get from this is that;

Pure Boo > Fat Boo
Evil Boo > Fat Boo

TheMightiestWarrior

May 28 2014, 06:50 AM

I don't get one thing, when Goku outright states that he has no chance against Super Buu but he gives Kid Buu an equal fight, this just simply implies what the result if going to be. Why do you even care to argue over it? Kaioshin is just worried because it was the first form of Buu and this form was pure evil and could destroy planets without thinking.

Nanho

May 28 2014, 12:49 AM

Naked Snake

May 27 2014, 10:00 PM

Conjecture.

Chapter: 511 (DBZ 317), P8.3-5, P10.4
Context: as Goku gathers ki, while Vegeta holds off pure Boo
Goku: “Just a little more…….!! Just a little bit more. Tough it out for me, Vegeta….!!”
Vegeta: “St…still not yet?...Hurry up…..!! I’ll be ki…..killed………..!!”
Goku: “Sh-s***…! It-it’s already over 1 minute, but…N-not yet! I still can’t wipe out Boo with this much…! [ ] …Da...Damn it……..!! …I haven’t gathered all the ki!! What’s going on? He…he’ll be killed…..!!!”

Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P1.6
Context: Vegeta asks Goku if he’s gathered enough ki to defeat Boo yet
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”

Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2
Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”

He outright states that he wasn't expecting the strain. The reason the ki began 'falling off' was because of the strain.

Yes, thats the reason his ki began falling off but not the reason he needed one minute to gather his ki....

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but unless you were looking away during the entire fight, you'd see that Goku was fighting toe-to-toe with Pure Boo, with no indication that Pure Boo was suppressing.

I never argued kid buu was suppressed during the fight with goku. I was arguing he may (most likely) have been suppressed before.

And that fight doesn't say definitely they were even. Buu may have been slightly stronger or goku may have been slightly stronger. Theres arguments for the 3. Of course I'll stick with buu being slightly stronger as it better helps my debate.

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Regarding the point on Evil Boo, what's the issue? Goku mentions the Potara and how much easier it would've been, but he still believes that he can get the job done with his own attack.

Its a show of regret; Like hes now realized hes dug himself deep in a hole after crushing the potara. And the way things were going, buu would have eventually drained him, before killing him.

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Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Would that be the one you're referring to? It seems to me like Goku's confident, and that confidence doesn't subside until he realises that he messed around too much in SSJ3.

This one:

Spoiler: click to toggle

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Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

All we get from this is that;

Pure Boo > Fat Boo
Evil Boo > Fat Boo

No it says more than that. Considering
1/its said after super reverts to kid
2/There is no mentioning from kai or elder hes lost **** ton of power (or any power lost for that matter)
3/ Super buu still had dai- kaioshin in him. which is the reason hes less evil; Dai-kaioshin is implied to be the reason buu lost power.

which all indicate. kid buu> super buu.

Anyways I think I'm done with this debate, as its going nowhere now.

Nanho

May 27 2014, 07:14 PM

TheMightiestWarrior

May 26 2014, 04:43 PM

1. How could you simply say it was a gag scene? It was never taken as a gag scene as they were directly stating his power decrease. The only sarcastic thing I saw, was the comment Vegeta gave about his size after noticing his Ki going down. They did not underestimate him. Vegeta already knew he wasn't enough for Buu but knew about Goku's SSJ3. Goku went blow to blow against Kid Buu in the fight. You will have to state SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan if you say Kid Buu > Super Buu. And the statements provides us enough evidence to say Gohan > Goku.

2. As I said earlier, Vegeta knew about Goku's SSJ3 power and was confident that he would be able to defeat Buu. He never underestimated him. When Buu was formed, he never stated he 'HIMSELF' would take him but he simply knew Goku has the power to wipe him out.

3. And what you're missing out is that Kid Buu was said to have no control over him, whatsoever. So if he feels like destroying the planet, he does so unlike Super Buu, who never thought of destroying Earth at first but simply wanted to be the strongest being ever as we can see how he saw Gohan's power developing and planned for Gotenks' absorption. Super Buu was evil but had 'some' control over his decisions.

1/
a/If they were ''directly'' stating his ''power'' decrease, the word ''ki'' or ''strength'' would have been included.
b/ If vegeta didnt think he could take him he wouldnt have played rock paper scissor hoping he'd fight first. And he said ''we can take him. That could only have meant him and goku or either one.

Also it was shown he underestimated him. (during the the momentary pause of the fight)Vegeta '' This buu is stronger than I imagined''. Seriously, are you actually reading the manga or just skimming through?

2/ This pure conjecture; A perfect and actual example of twisting the words.

3/I'm not arguing buu was more evil or destructive. I'm arguing for kai to be so terrified when super buu reverted to kid and also not note any decrease what so ever there either has to be an increase or none at all. And its most likely the former as it was stated after buu reverted that ''he lost power through absorption''; Buu doesn't just drop a *** load of power and its not noted or implied by the kais (especially kai who knows the full extent of kids powerr) .

Gogetto

May 28 2014, 05:30 AM

A)SSJ Gotenks (Pre) is at least almost strong as SSJ3 Goku.

1) Goku leaves and the boys finally get Fusion right. Gotenks forms in Base first, and right away Piccolo tells him he's not strong enough to even think about beating Boo. Gotenks cockily disobeys Piccolo and leaves to fight Boo, but returns after a prompt butt-kicking, cementing Piccolo's statement. Although he gets his butt kicked, he was confident in fighting Boo, and Krillin and Yamcha also seemed to think he stood a chance. In order for Gotenks to feel confident, he would have to be comfortably ahead of SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta and Goku at the very least. By multipliers, SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

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2)The boys fuse as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo immediately comments on SSjin Gotenks's power in a positive way, but questions if his speed is up to par; notice he doesn't question Gotenks's power, and he merely asked for a "little" demonstration of his movement. When Gotenks flies off and Piccolo finally catches up to him, Gotenks flaunts his speed and flies off again, but Piccolo shows no contempt except that Gotenks only has 1 minute left to fight Boo. So, SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu, like Goku is stronger than Fat Buu.

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The feat of SSJ3-Tier is make feel his ki from Earth to Kaioshinkai or inversely. For prove it, until SSJ3 Goku did, no one was able. Then, Super Buu, Mystic Gohan and Kid Buu did. They have a power almost equal or superior to SSJ3 Goku. SSJ Gotenks (Pre) also did. : http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8581722&t=8348696

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B)Super Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Super Buu forms and Piccolo immediately rushes the boys into the Room of Spirit and Time, telling Krillin that they can't win as they are now. He also states Super Buu is superior to Fat Boo in all aspects, including strength. The boys train for about 15 days (about 1 hour in the outside world). While still training, Trunks states that even with "regular Fusion," they should be able to beat Boo. When Base Gotenks actually forms, Piccolo thinks they might have a chance. This puts Base Gotenks above his previous Super Saiyan power by a decent margin at least. It turns out Goku was right that Boo's Ki was "like a lie," and Base Gotenks is promptly shoveled off the pavement after being humiliated; so Super Buu was heavily suppressed. It takes Super Saiyan 3 for Gotenks to actually damage Boo to any worthwhile extent. Near the end of their fight, it appears as if Gotenks is about to finish Boo, but time runs out and he splits back into Goten and Trunks. Super Buu later states to Gohan that he felt Gohan's Ki on the Kai planet and decided to wait for him. For simplicity's sake, we'll put Gotenks and Boo on par with each other, so we have:

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C)SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Kid Buu

Goku wins the game and faces Boo first. He transforms right to Super Saiyan 3 and a nigh-equal battle unfolds between the two. Goku stops for a moment and Vegeta tells him that at full power, he should be able to completely obliterate Kid Buu with Super Saiyan 3.

So, Super Buu >>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu.

TheMightiestWarrior

May 28 2014, 03:52 PM

a) And you just skip the fact that Goku says 'we can manage something after sensing his Ki going down. They aren't idiots to underestimate their opponents just when Earth is in serious danger. Vegeta comments about his size after noticing his Ki decrease, he actually meant 'Looks like his size has also decreased along with his Ki'. Common sense, I call it.

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Vegeta's nature is portrayed like that, he loves to fight stronger opponents and you cannot change it. He just wanted to have a chance to fight and be useful.

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Vegeta constantly stated he is no match for Kid Buu during Goku and Buu's fight.

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3) Kaio is terrorized because he could destroy planets without giving a thought to it. And I've always believed that Kai cannot sense Ki, as he was surprised to see Pocus but not surprised to see Gohan's SSJ2 power.

Stark

May 29 2014, 09:24 AM

>Goku doesn't want to face Evil Buu without fusion and flatout states that they are no match for his strength.
>Goku fights evenly with Pure Buu (hell he even landed more hits on Pure Buu than the other way around) and it's stated that he's able to completely obliterate him if he managed to gather Ki for one minute.

Really, how much more clear does it need to be?
Evil Buu > Pure Buu

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>Goku doesn't want to face Evil Buu without fusion and flatout states that they are no match for his strength.
>Goku fights evenly with Pure Buu (hell he even landed more hits on Pure Buu than the other way around) and it's stated that he's able to completely obliterate him if he managed to gather Ki for one minute.

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Really, your going with gag scenes to try and prove your point?

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and secondly,Gotenks attempted to fight supper buu at base in the chamber. Clearly there must be something wrong with his ki sensing ability as he should have known his power was miles apart from supers.

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Also going with multipliers will lead you a tray; its most likely akira didnt sit down with a calculator in hand when he made this; He most likely went with a more simplistic route...this guy is stronger than that guy, and that other guy is stronger than this guy etc

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Another gag scene. 

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Its very debatable whether he was suppressed or not. And I doubt he was looking at this scene:

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That doesnt mean hes stronger. and By using this as ur evidence for that claim Your completely disregarding 2 fact:
a/ Buu has very poor durability .

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just about anyone close to his strength can do damage.

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b/ Its heavily implied to be an amp attack. You know like a similar attack vegeta used to blow off half cell despite being massively weaker.

Nanho

May 30 2014, 03:36 AM

Stark

May 29 2014, 09:24 AM

>Goku doesn't want to face Evil Buu without fusion and flatout states that they are no match for his strength.
>Goku fights evenly with Pure Buu (hell he even landed more hits on Pure Buu than the other way around) and it's stated that he's able to completely obliterate him if he managed to gather Ki for one minute.

Really, how much more clear does it need to be?
Evil Buu > Pure Buu

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>Goku doesn't want to face Evil Buu without fusion and flatout states that they are no match for his strength.
>Goku fights evenly with Pure Buu (hell he even landed more hits on Pure Buu than the other way around) and it's stated that he's able to completely obliterate him if he managed to gather Ki for one minute.

Yes, but what were the chances of him actually wining that fight by himself though?

Anyways, after goku got out of super buu he had a change of mind; vegeta may have discouraged him from wanting to use fusion. At that point he seemed to believe fusion just wasnt the right way of doing things. And also now knew perfectly well vegeta would rather die than fuse again:

(context: elder kai suggests fusion)
Kai: here! use them quickly!
Goku ''No thanks take it back...Thats not how we do things..I'm sorry but I want to fight using my own power, vegeta wouldn't fuse with me anyways''
Elder kai: ''You idiot..what are you babbling about at a time like this?''
Vegeta: ''spoken like a true saiyan'' *crushes the potara*
Elder kai and kai: ........!
Goku: ''dont worry he cant follow us here..we have time to come up with a plan''

So basically they were jumping in a fight they doubted having even a chance, but content with the fact they're atleats going about it the right way (to them atleats). And this scene better emphasizes that:

Spoiler: click to toggle

And goku doesn't have to be the same strength as buu to be fighting him evenly. if so it would render vegetas comments (fighting to surpass his limits bla bla) during the fight pointless..

Gogetto

May 30 2014, 01:31 PM

Where is the gags ?

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Unless Super Buu was suppressed, and so Gotenks can't sense his real power.

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He said for him, the SSJ is 10x. So, i still can use 10x.

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Again, where is the gag ? So, if you think SSJ Gotenks is weaker than Fat Buu, why Piccolo didn't said they doesn't have a chance like he did when Gotenks normal was ? Why he send the kids to Rosat only when Super Buu appeared ?

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So you think Piccolo thought Gotenks (Base and SSJ) could win when he already sensed that Super Buu was much stronger than him ?

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That doesnt mean hes stronger. and By using this as ur evidence for that claim Your completely disregarding 2 fact:
a/ Buu has very poor durability .

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Regeneration compensates its low resistance. Try again.

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This is the case for all the characters DB. For example, Goku SSJ2 hurt Majin Vegeta when they are equal.

Stark

May 30 2014, 02:32 PM

As I said before, at no point did Goku say that Pure Buu turned out to be way more powerful than he imagined.

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Goku didn't miscalculate Pure Buu's power, he miscalculated his likelihood of winning that fight due to Pure Buu's insane stamina, durability, regeneration and Goku's own limits in energy and time when it came to his SSJ3 transformation.

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When fusing, Goku and Vegeta's whole plan was to get Buu mad, so he'd absorb them. While inside, they'd release their friends from Buu, which would lower his power down to a comfortable level they could handle.
When Gohan-Buu turned back to regular Evil Buu, Vegeta was quick to say "let's get out of here", but Goku stopped him, saying they're no match for him and Vegeta didn't question him at all.
When Pure Buu actually stood there, Goku seemed somewhat relieved. He even stated that "they did it".

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Buu reverts to his pure form
Goku: "..."
Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!"
Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something."

Heavily implying that they've weakened Buu to a level that they can handle without merging.

Nanho

May 31 2014, 04:55 AM

The first 2 points u made are based on gag scene, scenes put in the manga with the sole purpose of inducing laughter. The author didnt even show us the fight! shows you his only intentions with that scene was to give the reader/us a good laugh. Nothing t take seriously from that scene.

Nanho

May 31 2014, 04:55 AM

Unless Super Buu was suppressed, and so Gotenks can't sense his real power.

Nanho

May 31 2014, 04:55 AM

where?in an interview? provide the link, please. dint see that one.

Toriyama

 

"At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

Nanho

May 31 2014, 04:55 AM

He didnt get a chance, clearly.

Nanho

May 31 2014, 04:55 AM

As they flew off too quickly.

Nanho

May 31 2014, 04:55 AM

Nothing to really take serious though, as its a gag scene.

Nanho

May 31 2014, 04:55 AM

ts a gag scene.

Nanho

May 31 2014, 04:55 AM

What point are you trying to make here? or How does this refute my point?