Nanho

May 23 2014, 01:55 PM

TheMightiestWarrior

May 23 2014, 09:21 AM

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

Goku thinks he can manage something that means Kid Buu's Ki is significantly lowered compared to the old one and he could be able to destroy Buu with his SSJ3. Now you're not gonna say Goku isn't a reliable Ki sensor here. And Goku and Vegeta are not stupid to comment about his size instead of his power when they are at such critical situation. Goku also stated that he could be destroying Buu if he had 1 minute to power up and gather his Ki for a fully powered KHH.

Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku >= Kid Buu is flat out stated in the manga.

Kid Buu was always considered to be the most DANGEROUS form of Buu, never was he stated to be the STRONGEST form of Buu.

1/The term ''shrunk down'' has never been used when gauging someones strength
2/Its clear even vegeta thought he could take him (because of his size). But later admits ''hes stronger than he'd ever imagine..'' and when fighting him can barely even sustain hits from him. vegeta ''such incredible attacks how has kakarot fight this monster!''
3/The Look of despair on kais face says other wise. You cant just say its because of his destructive nature. As super would have killed both vegeta and goku and most likely destroyed earth. Kid buu had to have been superior in strength for them to be so scared.

TConnor_Demonic

May 23 2014, 02:02 PM

The mere fact that Goku suggests fusion against Super Boo, when Goku admits that both he and Vegeta would be done in by Super Boo and wanted to stay inside Super Boo. And then the fact that Goku can actually fight Kid Boo should be all that you need to see that Super Boo>Kid Boo=SSJ3 Goku.

Father Brofist

May 23 2014, 02:11 PM

Goku didn't even want to try facing Super Boo without fusion...the same guy Gotenks was knocking around earlier.

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It is outright stated that Goku could defeat Kid Boo...without contradiction.

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So...yes Super Boo/SSj3 Gotenks>>>Kid Boo and no amount of twisting the words will change that. After all I could make Piccolo>>>Super Boo too if I twisted my ****s*** around a bit. Piccolo is holding back, since he has God in him, he's able to be a lot more humble. He doesn't say anything at the tournament because he doesn't want Vegeta to feel sad that he's weaker than the Namek even with SSJ2. He got hit by Dabura's spit because he was secretely still conscious and getting aware of his surroundings. He never fought Fat Boo because he wanted others to realize the point of humanity and that of forgiveness, knowing that he is omnipotent and could easily re-create anything should it be destroyed. If Piccolo ever said anything about hi being weaker or unable to do something, its only because like Kaiolshin, Piccolo is a lying **** nugget.

Btw Piccolo also created Boo...stupid Kaioshin thinking Bibidi did that.

TheMightiestWarrior

May 23 2014, 02:25 PM

1. I'm talking about what Goku said. 'We can manage 'something'.' Why would he even bother to comment is size and judge what his power would be. He probably was talking about his Ki as it decreased. And Vegeta sarcastically comments on Buu's size after knowing how much has his power decreased.

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2. Vegeta never said he could take him, he only stated that Goku has the power to destroy Buu.

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3. Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

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This simply implies he was the most dangerous one but nowhere is it written he was the strongest one. They are scared just because he has no control over himself. He is likely to blow up the planet whenever he wants and doesn't care about anything, but Super Buu had some control over himself. Kid Buu is just seen to regenerate faster and gather Ki much quickly. Why would that make him stronger than Buu?

Nanho

May 25 2014, 02:56 AM

And my point was for kai to be that scared when super reverted to kid buu, there must have been some significant gains. It cant just be about him becoming more evil. As super was already evil (its not like he was good, now turning bad) and would have eventually killed everyone. Also if there was a power loss either of the kais would have noted it.

Nanho

May 25 2014, 02:56 AM

1. That scene was obviously a gag; That scene reminds me of that piccolo scene in the chamber, where piccolo got overly excited about gotenks power gains, and then immediately gets disappointed at gotenks inability to even scratch buu. Piccolo seeming completely oblivious to the massive power gap between the two.

Regardless, It was made clear during the fight that they underestimated him...

2. *sigh* I'm talking about when kid buu was formed. Vegetas comments then implied he could take him.

What ur talking about here is when he states he underestimates kid..

3. Then ur blindly missing the part where he said he lost power. ''Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption''.

And my point was for kai to be that scared when super reverted to kid buu, there must have been some significant gains. It cant just be about him becoming more evil. As super was already evil (its not like he was good, now turning bad) and would have eventually killed everyone. Also if there was a power loss either of the kais would have noted it.

TheMightiestWarrior

May 26 2014, 04:43 PM

1. How could you simply say it was a gag scene? It was never taken as a gag scene as they were directly stating his power decrease. The only sarcastic thing I saw, was the comment Vegeta gave about his size after noticing his Ki going down. They did not underestimate him. Vegeta already knew he wasn't enough for Buu but knew about Goku's SSJ3. Goku went blow to blow against Kid Buu in the fight. You will have to state SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan if you say Kid Buu > Super Buu. And the statements provides us enough evidence to say Gohan > Goku.

2. As I said earlier, Vegeta knew about Goku's SSJ3 power and was confident that he would be able to defeat Buu. He never underestimated him. When Buu was formed, he never stated he 'HIMSELF' would take him but he simply knew Goku has the power to wipe him out.

3. And what you're missing out is that Kid Buu was said to have no control over him, whatsoever. So if he feels like destroying the planet, he does so unlike Super Buu, who never thought of destroying Earth at first but simply wanted to be the strongest being ever as we can see how he saw Gohan's power developing and planned for Gotenks' absorption. Super Buu was evil but had 'some' control over his decisions.

Naked Snake

May 26 2014, 05:12 PM

Goku toys with the idea that he could take Pure Boo in one blast and, even if that isn't the case, he sees it as a possibility, whereas he made no such statement with Evil Boo and his forms

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There's nothing shrouding Boo's ki once he's in his Pure form. When he fought Fat Boo, Goku commented on his ki 'being a lie', but this is likely due to the Kai influence in Boo and it suppressing his true power.

Nanho

May 27 2014, 07:14 PM

TheMightiestWarrior

May 26 2014, 04:43 PM

1. How could you simply say it was a gag scene? It was never taken as a gag scene as they were directly stating his power decrease. The only sarcastic thing I saw, was the comment Vegeta gave about his size after noticing his Ki going down. They did not underestimate him. Vegeta already knew he wasn't enough for Buu but knew about Goku's SSJ3. Goku went blow to blow against Kid Buu in the fight. You will have to state SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan if you say Kid Buu > Super Buu. And the statements provides us enough evidence to say Gohan > Goku.

2. As I said earlier, Vegeta knew about Goku's SSJ3 power and was confident that he would be able to defeat Buu. He never underestimated him. When Buu was formed, he never stated he 'HIMSELF' would take him but he simply knew Goku has the power to wipe him out.

3. And what you're missing out is that Kid Buu was said to have no control over him, whatsoever. So if he feels like destroying the planet, he does so unlike Super Buu, who never thought of destroying Earth at first but simply wanted to be the strongest being ever as we can see how he saw Gohan's power developing and planned for Gotenks' absorption. Super Buu was evil but had 'some' control over his decisions.

1/
a/If they were ''directly'' stating his ''power'' decrease, the word ''ki'' or ''strength'' would have been included.
b/ If vegeta didnt think he could take him he wouldnt have played rock paper scissor hoping he'd fight first. And he said ''we can take him. That could only have meant him and goku or either one.

Also it was shown he underestimated him. (during the the momentary pause of the fight)Vegeta '' This buu is stronger than I imagined''. Seriously, are you actually reading the manga or just skimming through?

2/ This pure conjecture; A perfect and actual example of twisting the words.

3/I'm not arguing buu was more evil or destructive. I'm arguing for kai to be so terrified when super buu reverted to kid and also not note any decrease what so ever there either has to be an increase or none at all. And its most likely the former as it was stated after buu reverted that ''he lost power through absorption''; Buu doesn't just drop a *** load of power and its not noted or implied by the kais (especially kai who knows the full extent of kids powerr) .

Naked Snake

May 26 2014, 05:12 PM

Goku toys with the idea that he could take Pure Boo in one blast and, even if that isn't the case, he sees it as a possibility, whereas he made no such statement with Evil Boo and his forms

That the problem is he needed 1 minute. how is he going to get buu to wait one minute?? eventually buu would have killed him. This is a clear indication he underestimated him. And his comment later emphasizes that. Goku ''he'd be no problem if we used the potara.....I guess I over did it back there.....I thought I could do better''. If he knew kid would be this difficult he would have insisted on fusion. Only he didnt know. But he knew of super..

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There's nothing shrouding Boo's ki once he's in his Pure form. When he fought Fat Boo, Goku commented on his ki 'being a lie', but this is likely due to the Kai influence in Boo and it suppressing his true power.

So he cant suppress his ki? its very likely they didnt know how strong he actually was considering several scenes;

First you have Vegetas saying with certainty ''they'' could take buu...playing rock paper scissors and getting upset goku goes first as though he stood a chance.

Then there is goku questioning whether they stood a chance or not '' I dont think we can do anything, but lets try anyways''

Next, we have vegeta stating he underestimated him. vegeta ''This buu is stronger than I imagine''

Fourthly, vegetas comments on buus strength while fighting him. vegeta ''such incredible and strong attacks how has kakarot fought this monster''. Indicating buus far stronger than he imagined.

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Vegeta admits that he's no match for Pure Boo, don't really see the significance of this. Vegeta admits inferiority to a Boo that he never claimed superiority over beforehand.

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He says that Boo's 'stronger than I imagined', but he also says this about Goku. This implies that they're both around the same strength. Then, we get;

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Vegeta clarifies the idea that a Full Power SSJ3 Goku would be able to wipe out Boo in one attack. The fact is, Goku spent too long fighting before doing so, and the strain prevented him from being able to effectively gather ki up for an attack. If he'd been able to from the start, we have every reason to believe that Goku could've decimated Boo.

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Regarding Pure Boo's power, could you direct me to those scenes? I saw no indication whatsoever that Boo was suppressing his power. We only know that he's capable of pulling his punches, nothing more.

Nanho

May 27 2014, 08:58 PM

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Vegeta admits that he's no match for Pure Boo, don't really see the significance of this. Vegeta admits inferiority to a Boo that he never claimed superiority over beforehand.

He admits hes no match for buu after hes seen him fight. And he never claimed superiority(of course not), but he did act as though he stood a chance beforehand. The point was he had no idea how strong kid was until he saw him fight.

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He says that Boo's 'stronger than I imagined', but he also says this about Goku. This implies that they're both around the same strength. Then, we get;

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

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Vegeta clarifies the idea that a Full Power SSJ3 Goku would be able to wipe out Boo in one attack. The fact is, Goku spent too long fighting before doing so, and the strain prevented him from being able to effectively gather ki up for an attack. If he'd been able to from the start, we have every reason to believe that Goku could've decimated Boo.

Conjecture. The Strain was only hinted when goku was unable to hold the ki he had later gathered. It was never hinted or mentioned during the discussion of gathering ki. Which means its as how its stated. He needs one minute to charge a strong enough attack (like the final flash vegeta needed time) to completely obliterate buu or other wise he'd be fighting to his death. As buu showed no sign weakening. due obviously to his impeccable regeneration ability.

I'm betting he was hoping for a similar scenario(like with ssj3 gotenks vs super or kid vs mr buu) to play out, weaken him somehow where hes momentarily immobilized then charge an attack strong enough to obliterate him.

Anyways his regeneration is the main constituent of his; You cant beat buu being just stronger or as strong. Which is why fusion was is why fusion was suggested for super. And why goku felt it should have been used for kid.

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Regarding Pure Boo's power, could you direct me to those scenes? I saw no indication whatsoever that Boo was suppressing his power. We only know that he's capable of pulling his punches, nothing more.

Photobuctet aint working.

I'm talking about what goku said prior to fighting buu. Before he said he'll have to go all out.

How about providing that quote if you know what I'm referring; I'm curious whats said in your translation.


Seriously though, The fact that there no mention of a decrease by the kais and that this isi stated after super reverts to kid:
Kai: ''Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption''.
should be enough to prove kid>super.

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Conjecture. The Strain was only hinted when goku was unable to hold the ki he had later gathered. It was never hinted or mentioned during the discussion of gathering ki. Which means its as how its stated. He needs one minute to charge a strong enough attack (like the final flash vegeta needed time) to completely obliterate buu or other wise he'd be fighting to his death. As buu showed no sign weakening. due obviously to his impeccable regeneration ability.

I'm betting he was hoping for a similar scenario(like with ssj3 gotenks vs super or kid vs mr buu) to play out, weaken him somehow where hes momentarily immobilized then charge an attack strong enough to obliterate him.

Anyways his regeneration is the main constituent of his; You cant beat buu being just stronger or as strong. Which is why fusion was is why fusion was suggested for super. And why goku felt it should have been used for kid.

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I'm talking about what goku said prior to fighting buu. Before he said he'll have to go all out.

How about providing that quote if you know what I'm referring; I'm curious whats said in your translation.


Seriously though, The fact that there no mention of a decrease by the kais and that this isi stated after super reverts to kid:
Kai: ''Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption''.
should be enough to prove kid>super.