lunar2

May 24 2014, 06:30 PM

yokip

May 24 2014, 03:39 PM

lunar2

May 24 2014, 05:04 AM

Father Brofist

May 24 2014, 01:47 AM

But I am talking about religion as whole. While Fundamentalist Christianity is definitely vocal my points don't just refer to fundamentalism but to the entirety of religion. The point that religion, yes religion not just a fundamentalism, but all religion even the ones that are more humble, never seem to rely on giving us evidence to support themselves in their cause.

except muslim apologists can point to several ayats in the qu'ran that seem to refer to knowledge we have now gained through science, but that was not known at the time. like the expanding universe, or the origin of life in the water, for example. and unlike many other religions, we know that those ayats were not put in later, because 2 of the original 7 manuscripts of the qu'ran still exist to compare the texts to. i'm not arguing for islam being the correct religion, btw. just pointing out that they do have the type of evidence an omniscient creator would actually give, in the form of knowledge that's not only ahead of their time, but that couldn't possibly have been discovered during that time period. i still think muhammed talked to aliens, though. the god of abraham definitely does not exist.

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quranic verses simply being reinterpreted to satisfy scientific discovery. They are constantly twisting the verses so that it matches science. Finding verses similar to science is not science. The Quran has some vague verses. People change their meaning to make it more compatible with science.

The Quran does not mention the Big Bang theory. It says in sura Al Anbiah ( chapter 21 verse # 30)

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?"

Sounds very alike to the genesis creation story BTW.

The heaven and earth being together in one unit this is incorrect. The verse is clearly in error. The earth was never joined together in 'one unit' with the heavens. The earth is just one planet, orbiting a star in this vast Universe and was formed a very long time after the 'heavens'

Also to say the Earth and the heavens are two separate things by being joined together then split is incorrect there is no boundary between the universe and earth. it would be like standing on the moon and saying it and the universe are also separate. You will find the same vaug e verses for expanding universe miracle and every other claimed scientific discovery in the quran.

actually, the one i was referring to was 51:48: And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it (musi'un).

heaven, in islam, refers not to the spiritual concept of heaven, which is called Paradise, but to the physical heaven. space, in other words. there is no twisting of scripture there. it clearly says allah created space, and is continuing to expand it. the first half of that, whether allah built it, is debatable. the second half, that it is still expanding, is a known fact now, but could not have been predicted back then. it's not even a vague statement. it clearly states that "the heaven" (which, again, is not referring to Paradise, because that uses a different word in arabic) is still expanding.

also, 21:30, which you conveniently only posted the first half of, states:

"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"

"Authentic Arabic lexicons give two meanings of ratqan, that have great relevance to the topic under discussion. One meaning is 'the coming together of something and the consequent infusion into a single entity' and the second meaning is 'total darkness'. Both these meanings are significantly applicable. Taken together, they offer an apt description of the singularity of a black hole."

the pre-big bang universe, where all matter and energy was concentrated into an infinitesimally small volume, would function almost exactly like a black hole.

21:105 The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. [That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it.

whoever originally wrote the qur'an apparently believed in the big crunch. we now know that a big crunch is unlikely, due to dark energy, but it is still possible, and was, until relatively recently, a widely held scientific belief.

now, that's not to say that all scientific information in the qur'an is correct. after all, a big crunch is implausible, if not impossible, by modern knowledge. and mountains certainly do not prevent earthquakes, while the qur'an explicitly claims they do.

also, be careful of using the abdullah yusuf ali translation. it is popular, but also was politicized and was written with an antisemitic intent, so it's accuracy is doubtful. the arberry translation is considered better among experts. of course, arabic can't truly be translated into english, due to the different language families, but the general meaning can be conveyed. so remember that when something seems vague to you, it might actually be vague, or it might be translation difficulties.

Also in both Greek and Indian philosophy water was the basis of life, far predating the Koran.

ObsessiveFanGirl

May 24 2014, 06:55 PM

lunar2

May 24 2014, 05:53 AM

because most religions aren't even remotely similar to fundamentalist evangelical christianity.

My three best friends are southern Baptist, Catholic, and Muslim. My entire family is Nazarene. That's four different religions right there.

I especially understand the differences between Christian denominations and Islam, so no, I'm not in the dark here. I know what I'm talking about.

Quote:

 

That is not an accurate translation. Traditional translators of the quran (pre 1930) quote for Surah 51:47 as follows:

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

All of the translations come to same conclusion that space is big not expanding. The verse was later tweaked or dishonesty translated to fit with the discovery of an expanding universe after its discovery.


Late twentieth century translations of the same verse, after Hubble's discovery was established science:

Shabbir Ahmed: "And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it."

Dr. Munir Munshey: "With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)!"

Muhammad Asad: "And it is We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."

Quote:

 

Heaven" is not "universe." If you paid attention to other verses in the Quran, you'd see that "heaven" is defined as the concept of a dome a few miles up over a flat earth.
And the universe isn't "constantly" expanding. It went through an early inflationary period. slowed back down, and is now speeding up again.

Quote:

 

The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it.

This verse again prove that Qur'an has assumed the sky and heavens something like a canopy.

So, Allah will scroll them up like book on the Day of Judgement.

lunar2

May 24 2014, 08:04 PM

ObsessiveFanGirl

May 24 2014, 06:55 PM

lunar2

May 24 2014, 05:53 AM

because most religions aren't even remotely similar to fundamentalist evangelical christianity.

My three best friends are southern Baptist, Catholic, and Muslim. My entire family is Nazarene. That's four different religions right there.

I especially understand the differences between Christian denominations and Islam, so no, I'm not in the dark here. I know what I'm talking about.

baptist, catholic, and Nazarene are all different denominations of the same religion, baptist and nazarene both being evangelical, and Islam is in the same family of religions. so yeah, 2 religions, both Semitic, is hardly a representative sample of all religions. and knowing one Muslim is hardly a justification for saying you know Islam, since there's a very high chance your friend is Sunni, which means you haven't been exposed to any of the 3 groups of shia muslims, or sufi muslims, or any other muslim denomination.

so no, if your only knowledge about religion is from your family and friends, you don't know what you're talking about. you don't even have enough variety there to get a good picture of christianity as a whole.

lunar2

May 24 2014, 09:01 PM

you claimed your friends and family to support your knowledge, not independent research. if you have done the research, claim that instead. so far you've made vague claims about how the argument against christianity could also be applied to other religions, but you haven't given any examples of those arguments, and you even went so far as to claim 3 christian denominations as separate religions, seriously undermining your claim that argument against christianity apply to other religions by casting doubt on what you consider to be other religions.

lunar2

May 24 2014, 09:01 PM

you claimed your friends and family to support your knowledge, not independent research. if you have done the research, claim that instead. so far you've made vague claims about how the argument against christianity could also be applied to other religions, but you haven't given any examples of those arguments, and you even went so far as to claim 3 christian denominations as separate religions, seriously undermining your claim that argument against christianity apply to other religions by casting doubt on what you consider to be other religions.

lunar2

May 24 2014, 08:04 PM

ObsessiveFanGirl

May 24 2014, 06:55 PM

lunar2

May 24 2014, 05:53 AM

because most religions aren't even remotely similar to fundamentalist evangelical christianity.

My three best friends are southern Baptist, Catholic, and Muslim. My entire family is Nazarene. That's four different religions right there.

I especially understand the differences between Christian denominations and Islam, so no, I'm not in the dark here. I know what I'm talking about.

baptist, catholic, and Nazarene are all different denominations of the same religion, baptist and nazarene both being evangelical, and Islam is in the same family of religions. so yeah, 2 religions, both Semitic, is hardly a representative sample of all religions. and knowing one Muslim is hardly a justification for saying you know Islam, since there's a very high chance your friend is Sunni, which means you haven't been exposed to any of the 3 groups of shia muslims, or sufi muslims, or any other muslim denomination.

so no, if your only knowledge about religion is from your family and friends, you don't know what you're talking about. you don't even have enough variety there to get a good picture of christianity as a whole.

Quote:

 

That is not an accurate translation. Traditional translators of the quran (pre 1930) quote for Surah 51:47 as follows:

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

All of the translations come to same conclusion that space is big not expanding. The verse was later tweaked or dishonesty translated to fit with the discovery of an expanding universe after its discovery.


Late twentieth century translations of the same verse, after Hubble's discovery was established science:

Shabbir Ahmed: "And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it."

Dr. Munir Munshey: "With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)!"

Muhammad Asad: "And it is We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."

the literal translation: And the sky/space We built/constructed it with power/support , and We (E) are extending/spreading (E) .

and you seriously used pickthal to prove your point? you do know he deliberately changed the meanings of ayats because he like muhammad 'ali (the writer and qur'an translator, not the boxer) didn't believe in miracles. he's less than worthless as a translator, because he didn't translate, he rewrote the text. he's worse than yusuf ali, who's bad enough on his own for injecting his own political agenda into the text. the shakir translation is a plagiarization of the muhammed 'ali translation, which is of the same type as the pickthal translation. there's a reason those translations aren't widely used anymore.

the arberry translation is the best one according to academics, and it states: And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.

built in the past tense, extend in the present tense.

now, after a little research, it is true that it is the modern translations that reference expanding in the present tense. however, can you prove that the older translations are the correct ones? after all, translating the qur'ran directly, without relying on medieval scholarship is also a modern idea, so it could be that the old translations are merely incorrect, especially given how many of them are known to have rewritten parts of the text, or been politically motivated.

as for the univese expanding. it is constantly expanding in that it has always been expanding, and never stopped, and presumably never will.

Quote:

 

Heaven" is not "universe." If you paid attention to other verses in the Quran, you'd see that "heaven" is defined as the concept of a dome a few miles up over a flat earth.
And the universe isn't "constantly" expanding. It went through an early inflationary period. slowed back down, and is now speeding up again.

you'll have to bring the quotes on that one.

Quote:

 

The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it.

This verse again prove that Qur'an has assumed the sky and heavens something like a canopy.

So, Allah will scroll them up like book on the Day of Judgement.

the scroll reference also could refer to how matter is absorbed into a black hole. the gravity and electroamagnetism presses the matter into sheets that spiral in, like a scroll being rolled up. again, consistent with a big crunch model.

yokip

May 24 2014, 11:30 PM

lunar2

May 24 2014, 08:04 PM

ObsessiveFanGirl

May 24 2014, 06:55 PM

lunar2

May 24 2014, 05:53 AM

because most religions aren't even remotely similar to fundamentalist evangelical christianity.

My three best friends are southern Baptist, Catholic, and Muslim. My entire family is Nazarene. That's four different religions right there.

I especially understand the differences between Christian denominations and Islam, so no, I'm not in the dark here. I know what I'm talking about.

baptist, catholic, and Nazarene are all different denominations of the same religion, baptist and nazarene both being evangelical, and Islam is in the same family of religions. so yeah, 2 religions, both Semitic, is hardly a representative sample of all religions. and knowing one Muslim is hardly a justification for saying you know Islam, since there's a very high chance your friend is Sunni, which means you haven't been exposed to any of the 3 groups of shia muslims, or sufi muslims, or any other muslim denomination.

so no, if your only knowledge about religion is from your family and friends, you don't know what you're talking about. you don't even have enough variety there to get a good picture of christianity as a whole.

Quote:

 

That is not an accurate translation. Traditional translators of the quran (pre 1930) quote for Surah 51:47 as follows:

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

All of the translations come to same conclusion that space is big not expanding. The verse was later tweaked or dishonesty translated to fit with the discovery of an expanding universe after its discovery.


Late twentieth century translations of the same verse, after Hubble's discovery was established science:

Shabbir Ahmed: "And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it."

Dr. Munir Munshey: "With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)!"

Muhammad Asad: "And it is We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."

the literal translation: And the sky/space We built/constructed it with power/support , and We (E) are extending/spreading (E) .

and you seriously used pickthal to prove your point? you do know he deliberately changed the meanings of ayats because he like muhammad 'ali (the writer and qur'an translator, not the boxer) didn't believe in miracles. he's less than worthless as a translator, because he didn't translate, he rewrote the text. he's worse than yusuf ali, who's bad enough on his own for injecting his own political agenda into the text. the shakir translation is a plagiarization of the muhammed 'ali translation, which is of the same type as the pickthal translation. there's a reason those translations aren't widely used anymore.

the arberry translation is the best one according to academics, and it states: And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.

built in the past tense, extend in the present tense.

now, after a little research, it is true that it is the modern translations that reference expanding in the present tense. however, can you prove that the older translations are the correct ones? after all, translating the qur'ran directly, without relying on medieval scholarship is also a modern idea, so it could be that the old translations are merely incorrect, especially given how many of them are known to have rewritten parts of the text, or been politically motivated.

as for the univese expanding. it is constantly expanding in that it has always been expanding, and never stopped, and presumably never will.

Quote:

 

Heaven" is not "universe." If you paid attention to other verses in the Quran, you'd see that "heaven" is defined as the concept of a dome a few miles up over a flat earth.
And the universe isn't "constantly" expanding. It went through an early inflationary period. slowed back down, and is now speeding up again.

you'll have to bring the quotes on that one.

Quote:

 

The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it.

This verse again prove that Qur'an has assumed the sky and heavens something like a canopy.

So, Allah will scroll them up like book on the Day of Judgement.

the scroll reference also could refer to how matter is absorbed into a black hole. the gravity and electroamagnetism presses the matter into sheets that spiral in, like a scroll being rolled up. again, consistent with a big crunch model.

Seeing that the word expanding was only used after the scientific discovery shows that there is an agenda of dishonesty of language here twisting an actual word meaning into something else. There is know known translator, Arabic speaking scholar of the Quran or any recorded believer to hint that the quran mentions an expanding universe before the discovery itself.

A common myth at the time of the Quran's composition was that the sky or heavens were held up with pillars. Many Bedouin people living in Arabia imagined the sky as a large tent covering, similar to the tents they used. The author repeats this myth by describing the sky as being "raised" above the earth. Even if you add the word expanding you still have the same problem.
It is He Who made the Earth a couch for you, and the sky a dome.
Qur'an 2:22
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see
Qur'an 13:2
In another verse, the author says that the sky has a covering.
And when the heaven has its covering removed.

Sky Guards the Earth
And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)

Sky can Fall Down on People
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).


Sky can be Rolled Up
This is another verse implying that the sky or heaven is something solid.
The Day when We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolleth up a written scroll.

Even though the big crunch has been disregard as incorrect since the universe is expanding faster every moment for arguments sake the scroll reference fits with a geocentric flat earth model were the sky and earth are rolled up like a 2 dimensional sheet of paper. It sounds vague to fit it with the big crunch which describe everything contracting like a balloon. Nothing hints it being rolled up as a scroll which is only possible on a flat surface.

lunar2

May 24 2014, 10:59 PM

yes, mormonism and jehovah's witnesses are religions based on christianity, just like christianity is a religion based on judaism, and judaism is a religion based on even older mythology and superstition.

yokip

May 25 2014, 01:52 AM

1) The orthodox Islamic view is that the Qur'an cannot be translated, merely interpreted. Same for arbrery translation which is just his interpretation of Muhammad Iqbal's writings. Therefore translations are not reliable in general. Majority of interpretation say that space is big not that it is expanding. Unless you want to say all of them are in some sort of conspiracy against the facts or don,t know the English language well.

2) The universe said to already be there in past tense then extended in present tense is contradictory as space started of expanding it was never stationary in some form than suddenly extended.

3) Sky Guards the Earth, Asteroids and meteorites have penetrated the atmosphere and hit the earth throughout the course of history. This includes the massive meteorite that hit near the Yucatán Peninsula 65 million years which killed off numerous species including most dinosaurs. There is no guardian, whatsoever, that prevents these types of events form happening.
And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)
There also there seems to be confusion between the heavens (space) and the atmosphere (sky) which is the thing that actually protects life on earth from the heavens not the heavens protecting us.

3) The earth had not formed or existed at the time of the big bang therefore never separated like the verse claims, the earth formed about 9bn years later. And in any case, the earth is not separate from 'the heavens' but is part of the universe, like any organ in your body is part of you. The earth also never split from anything but merged by gravity.