lunar2

May 21 2014, 01:19 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 12:39 AM

lunar2

May 19 2014, 11:55 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 19 2014, 07:28 PM

So in other words Dabura is assuming the might of 3 Saiyajins will equate to 100 times base Gohan's power? Even if we assume SSJ's multiplier has dropped. It's certainly not below 3 times based on the Kiri reading for SSJ Goku. With that in mind, SSJ2 is 2 times base so Dabura is assuming 6 times Gohan's full power equates to these 3, whom are clearly suppressed in comparison to Gohan's base maximum? I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. It's much easier to assume taking damage provides a lot of energy for Buu. I mean a short scuffle between SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta was enough to revive Buu.

if you had read the numbers, it came out to the average of the 3 suppressed base saiyans (actually gohan's full power, which works in favor of a higher ssj multiplier) being a little over 1/2 ssj2 gohan, which allows a 3.66x ssj multiplier with a 2x ssj2 multiplier. that 3.66x ssj multiplier puts ssj goku over 3.75x as powerful as yakon, assuming base goku had a 5% advantage over yakon.

in other words, if you take the liberty that the suppressed base saiyans (i should actually say expected base saiyans, since babidi and dabura knew they were suppressed, they just underestimated by how much in the case of goku and vegeta, who are more skilled than gohan, and could therefore better hide their power under observation) only get buu most of the way there, instead of actually topping him off (which still fits the actual text, so it works. it's just a somewhat different interpretation), the numbers for that section work out perfectly.

as for the damage. the damage can't release more energy than the fighter actually has. even assuming 100% of the power lost is actually absorbed, the saiyans can't contribute more power than they have.

also, with these numbers, goku and majin vegeta ssj2 comes out to 10.69. assuming that both their energy was being contributed to buu, and not just goku, then they would only need to contribute 3 each, which is less than a third of their power. it's also a small enough amount that half a sensu bean would have healed them to full, so it fits with goku wanting to split the bean and double team buu.

but that does lead to an interesting kink in the numbers. assuming that those under babidi's control can be drained, then if babidi and dabura expected pui pui to lose, but do a lot of damage, we can add his energy to the mix which opens up the numbers a bit. as a quick estimate, i'd say a 5x ssj would be possible under that scenario. but you still can't get much more than that without pushing the numbers way further than they are meant to go.

Only, there's a problem. That conflicts with the official SSJ multiplier. Even if it dropped, I don't think it would drop below 5 times at most. I also don't see how Dabura's statement conflicts with anything. Damage being dealt to anyone provides Buu with a great deal of energy. Majin Vegeta and Goku provided the remaining half of Buu's energy after a short scuffle.

look. here's the deal. if you want to accept 3rd party works as canon, that's one thing. but they absolutely have to be at a lower level than the manga. if the manga gives us actual math to work with (and it did), and that math contradicts a 3rd party source like the daizenshuu, then it is the daizenshuu that is wrong, not the manga.

and yes, damage being dealt gives energy to buu. but it can't give more energy than was lost. energy doesn't just appear out of thin air, or they wouldn't need to damage anyone to get the energy in the first place. for goku and vegeta to give 6 energy to buu, they had to have lost at least 6 energy. which means for the expected base saiyans to give 3 energy, they had to have at least 3 energy.

Master Saberoph

May 21 2014, 01:23 AM

I'm confused Lunar... are you going with x50 Multiplier, or saying the Manga says it lowers?

I'm confused as hell.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 01:52 AM

lunar2

May 21 2014, 01:19 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 12:39 AM

lunar2

May 19 2014, 11:55 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 19 2014, 07:28 PM

So in other words Dabura is assuming the might of 3 Saiyajins will equate to 100 times base Gohan's power? Even if we assume SSJ's multiplier has dropped. It's certainly not below 3 times based on the Kiri reading for SSJ Goku. With that in mind, SSJ2 is 2 times base so Dabura is assuming 6 times Gohan's full power equates to these 3, whom are clearly suppressed in comparison to Gohan's base maximum? I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. It's much easier to assume taking damage provides a lot of energy for Buu. I mean a short scuffle between SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta was enough to revive Buu.

if you had read the numbers, it came out to the average of the 3 suppressed base saiyans (actually gohan's full power, which works in favor of a higher ssj multiplier) being a little over 1/2 ssj2 gohan, which allows a 3.66x ssj multiplier with a 2x ssj2 multiplier. that 3.66x ssj multiplier puts ssj goku over 3.75x as powerful as yakon, assuming base goku had a 5% advantage over yakon.

in other words, if you take the liberty that the suppressed base saiyans (i should actually say expected base saiyans, since babidi and dabura knew they were suppressed, they just underestimated by how much in the case of goku and vegeta, who are more skilled than gohan, and could therefore better hide their power under observation) only get buu most of the way there, instead of actually topping him off (which still fits the actual text, so it works. it's just a somewhat different interpretation), the numbers for that section work out perfectly.

as for the damage. the damage can't release more energy than the fighter actually has. even assuming 100% of the power lost is actually absorbed, the saiyans can't contribute more power than they have.

also, with these numbers, goku and majin vegeta ssj2 comes out to 10.69. assuming that both their energy was being contributed to buu, and not just goku, then they would only need to contribute 3 each, which is less than a third of their power. it's also a small enough amount that half a sensu bean would have healed them to full, so it fits with goku wanting to split the bean and double team buu.

but that does lead to an interesting kink in the numbers. assuming that those under babidi's control can be drained, then if babidi and dabura expected pui pui to lose, but do a lot of damage, we can add his energy to the mix which opens up the numbers a bit. as a quick estimate, i'd say a 5x ssj would be possible under that scenario. but you still can't get much more than that without pushing the numbers way further than they are meant to go.

Only, there's a problem. That conflicts with the official SSJ multiplier. Even if it dropped, I don't think it would drop below 5 times at most. I also don't see how Dabura's statement conflicts with anything. Damage being dealt to anyone provides Buu with a great deal of energy. Majin Vegeta and Goku provided the remaining half of Buu's energy after a short scuffle.

look. here's the deal. if you want to accept 3rd party works as canon, that's one thing. but they absolutely have to be at a lower level than the manga. if the manga gives us actual math to work with (and it did), and that math contradicts a 3rd party source like the daizenshuu, then it is the daizenshuu that is wrong, not the manga.

and yes, damage being dealt gives energy to buu. but it can't give more energy than was lost. energy doesn't just appear out of thin air, or they wouldn't need to damage anyone to get the energy in the first place. for goku and vegeta to give 6 energy to buu, they had to have lost at least 6 energy. which means for the expected base saiyans to give 3 energy, they had to have at least 3 energy.

You seem to like using words like absolutely and impossible. I suggest you learn what those words mean before you go around using them. Let me break it down for ya. A lot of energy is drawn from damage. Simple explanation that contradicts nothing. Energy is more complex than you make it out to be. An energy blast has a constant power level despite the immense flow of energy. Damage can very easily draw a consistent amount of energy with every hit. If energy worked the way you assume it does, one's energy would be drastically cut every time someone uses a fairly large attack. Yet we see this is not the case a lot of the time. Need I bring up Gohan firing a massive Kamehameha at Cell with no noticeable cut in energy? Or how about Goku using a massive Kamehameha against Freeza's Nova Strike? No noticeable energy cut, even when Goku screamed max power and amplified his Ki, which should leave him totally drained, yet it doesn't. 3rd party content endorsed by Toriyama is still superior to one's opinion as far as I'm concerned. SSJ is and always will be 50 times base for me.

lunar2

May 21 2014, 03:59 AM

Master Saberoph

May 21 2014, 01:23 AM

I'm confused Lunar... are you going with x50 Multiplier, or saying the Manga says it lowers?

I'm confused as hell.

the manga says it lowers. babidi's spaceship doesn't work with anything over a 7.32x total ssj2 multiplier. that's a 3.66 ssj multiplier, assuming a 2x ssj2 multiplier. this fits in perfectly with ssj goku being 3.75x as powerful as yakon. there's some margin of error in these numbers, of course. in reality, you could probably stretch for a 5x ssj, but that's really about as high as it goes.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 01:52 AM

lunar2

May 21 2014, 01:19 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 12:39 AM

lunar2

May 19 2014, 11:55 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 19 2014, 07:28 PM

So in other words Dabura is assuming the might of 3 Saiyajins will equate to 100 times base Gohan's power? Even if we assume SSJ's multiplier has dropped. It's certainly not below 3 times based on the Kiri reading for SSJ Goku. With that in mind, SSJ2 is 2 times base so Dabura is assuming 6 times Gohan's full power equates to these 3, whom are clearly suppressed in comparison to Gohan's base maximum? I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. It's much easier to assume taking damage provides a lot of energy for Buu. I mean a short scuffle between SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta was enough to revive Buu.

if you had read the numbers, it came out to the average of the 3 suppressed base saiyans (actually gohan's full power, which works in favor of a higher ssj multiplier) being a little over 1/2 ssj2 gohan, which allows a 3.66x ssj multiplier with a 2x ssj2 multiplier. that 3.66x ssj multiplier puts ssj goku over 3.75x as powerful as yakon, assuming base goku had a 5% advantage over yakon.

in other words, if you take the liberty that the suppressed base saiyans (i should actually say expected base saiyans, since babidi and dabura knew they were suppressed, they just underestimated by how much in the case of goku and vegeta, who are more skilled than gohan, and could therefore better hide their power under observation) only get buu most of the way there, instead of actually topping him off (which still fits the actual text, so it works. it's just a somewhat different interpretation), the numbers for that section work out perfectly.

as for the damage. the damage can't release more energy than the fighter actually has. even assuming 100% of the power lost is actually absorbed, the saiyans can't contribute more power than they have.

also, with these numbers, goku and majin vegeta ssj2 comes out to 10.69. assuming that both their energy was being contributed to buu, and not just goku, then they would only need to contribute 3 each, which is less than a third of their power. it's also a small enough amount that half a sensu bean would have healed them to full, so it fits with goku wanting to split the bean and double team buu.

but that does lead to an interesting kink in the numbers. assuming that those under babidi's control can be drained, then if babidi and dabura expected pui pui to lose, but do a lot of damage, we can add his energy to the mix which opens up the numbers a bit. as a quick estimate, i'd say a 5x ssj would be possible under that scenario. but you still can't get much more than that without pushing the numbers way further than they are meant to go.

Only, there's a problem. That conflicts with the official SSJ multiplier. Even if it dropped, I don't think it would drop below 5 times at most. I also don't see how Dabura's statement conflicts with anything. Damage being dealt to anyone provides Buu with a great deal of energy. Majin Vegeta and Goku provided the remaining half of Buu's energy after a short scuffle.

look. here's the deal. if you want to accept 3rd party works as canon, that's one thing. but they absolutely have to be at a lower level than the manga. if the manga gives us actual math to work with (and it did), and that math contradicts a 3rd party source like the daizenshuu, then it is the daizenshuu that is wrong, not the manga.

and yes, damage being dealt gives energy to buu. but it can't give more energy than was lost. energy doesn't just appear out of thin air, or they wouldn't need to damage anyone to get the energy in the first place. for goku and vegeta to give 6 energy to buu, they had to have lost at least 6 energy. which means for the expected base saiyans to give 3 energy, they had to have at least 3 energy.

You seem to like using words like absolutely and impossible. I suggest you learn what those words mean before you go around using them. Let me break it down for ya. A lot of energy is drawn from damage. Simple explanation that contradicts nothing. Energy is more complex than you make it out to be. An energy blast has a constant power level despite the immense flow of energy. Damage can very easily draw a consistent amount of energy with every hit. If energy worked the way you assume it does, one's energy would be drastically cut every time someone uses a fairly large attack. Yet we see this is not the case a lot of the time. Need I bring up Gohan firing a massive Kamehameha at Cell with no noticeable cut in energy? Or how about Goku using a massive Kamehameha against Freeza's Nova Strike? No noticeable energy cut, even when Goku screamed max power and amplified his Ki, which should leave him totally drained, yet it doesn't. 3rd party content endorsed by Toriyama is still superior to one's opinion as far as I'm concerned. SSJ is and always will be 50 times base for me.

1. the daiz was not endorsed by akira toriyama. nowhere did he ever sign off on it, nor did he ever make any statements that it was canon. it was created entirely by people who had no involvement with the creation of the manga. none of them were akira toriyama, his assistant, or employees of shonen jump. that's kind of what 3rd party means, you know. an outside source that was not involved in the original work.

2. the ship is not absorbing offensive energy. that's why damage needed to be done. it's only absorbing the energy lost from the damage done, not all the energy in the area. if it was the latter case, dabura could have just powered up and let off ki blasts all day, and they wouldn't need to collect any outside energy. and it can't be absorbing more energy than is released from the damage being dealt. it's not pulling more energy than the person has. if it was, babidi would have just had dabura and yakon blast each other all day, and it would have filled up before either of them dropped. or, if you believe dabura was a makaioshin, and his energy would be unusable, then yakon and pui pui, instead.

3. fine. except you still have to explain yakon vs. ssj goku. without just brushing it off. actually explain it, and provide evidence for your explanation. how did base goku survive despite being less than 1/10th of yakon's power?

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 02:33 PM

lunar2

May 21 2014, 03:59 AM

Master Saberoph

May 21 2014, 01:23 AM

I'm confused Lunar... are you going with x50 Multiplier, or saying the Manga says it lowers?

I'm confused as hell.

the manga says it lowers. babidi's spaceship doesn't work with anything over a 7.32x total ssj2 multiplier. that's a 3.66 ssj multiplier, assuming a 2x ssj2 multiplier. this fits in perfectly with ssj goku being 3.75x as powerful as yakon. there's some margin of error in these numbers, of course. in reality, you could probably stretch for a 5x ssj, but that's really about as high as it goes.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 01:52 AM

lunar2

May 21 2014, 01:19 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 12:39 AM

lunar2

May 19 2014, 11:55 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 19 2014, 07:28 PM

So in other words Dabura is assuming the might of 3 Saiyajins will equate to 100 times base Gohan's power? Even if we assume SSJ's multiplier has dropped. It's certainly not below 3 times based on the Kiri reading for SSJ Goku. With that in mind, SSJ2 is 2 times base so Dabura is assuming 6 times Gohan's full power equates to these 3, whom are clearly suppressed in comparison to Gohan's base maximum? I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. It's much easier to assume taking damage provides a lot of energy for Buu. I mean a short scuffle between SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta was enough to revive Buu.

if you had read the numbers, it came out to the average of the 3 suppressed base saiyans (actually gohan's full power, which works in favor of a higher ssj multiplier) being a little over 1/2 ssj2 gohan, which allows a 3.66x ssj multiplier with a 2x ssj2 multiplier. that 3.66x ssj multiplier puts ssj goku over 3.75x as powerful as yakon, assuming base goku had a 5% advantage over yakon.

in other words, if you take the liberty that the suppressed base saiyans (i should actually say expected base saiyans, since babidi and dabura knew they were suppressed, they just underestimated by how much in the case of goku and vegeta, who are more skilled than gohan, and could therefore better hide their power under observation) only get buu most of the way there, instead of actually topping him off (which still fits the actual text, so it works. it's just a somewhat different interpretation), the numbers for that section work out perfectly.

as for the damage. the damage can't release more energy than the fighter actually has. even assuming 100% of the power lost is actually absorbed, the saiyans can't contribute more power than they have.

also, with these numbers, goku and majin vegeta ssj2 comes out to 10.69. assuming that both their energy was being contributed to buu, and not just goku, then they would only need to contribute 3 each, which is less than a third of their power. it's also a small enough amount that half a sensu bean would have healed them to full, so it fits with goku wanting to split the bean and double team buu.

but that does lead to an interesting kink in the numbers. assuming that those under babidi's control can be drained, then if babidi and dabura expected pui pui to lose, but do a lot of damage, we can add his energy to the mix which opens up the numbers a bit. as a quick estimate, i'd say a 5x ssj would be possible under that scenario. but you still can't get much more than that without pushing the numbers way further than they are meant to go.

Only, there's a problem. That conflicts with the official SSJ multiplier. Even if it dropped, I don't think it would drop below 5 times at most. I also don't see how Dabura's statement conflicts with anything. Damage being dealt to anyone provides Buu with a great deal of energy. Majin Vegeta and Goku provided the remaining half of Buu's energy after a short scuffle.

look. here's the deal. if you want to accept 3rd party works as canon, that's one thing. but they absolutely have to be at a lower level than the manga. if the manga gives us actual math to work with (and it did), and that math contradicts a 3rd party source like the daizenshuu, then it is the daizenshuu that is wrong, not the manga.

and yes, damage being dealt gives energy to buu. but it can't give more energy than was lost. energy doesn't just appear out of thin air, or they wouldn't need to damage anyone to get the energy in the first place. for goku and vegeta to give 6 energy to buu, they had to have lost at least 6 energy. which means for the expected base saiyans to give 3 energy, they had to have at least 3 energy.

You seem to like using words like absolutely and impossible. I suggest you learn what those words mean before you go around using them. Let me break it down for ya. A lot of energy is drawn from damage. Simple explanation that contradicts nothing. Energy is more complex than you make it out to be. An energy blast has a constant power level despite the immense flow of energy. Damage can very easily draw a consistent amount of energy with every hit. If energy worked the way you assume it does, one's energy would be drastically cut every time someone uses a fairly large attack. Yet we see this is not the case a lot of the time. Need I bring up Gohan firing a massive Kamehameha at Cell with no noticeable cut in energy? Or how about Goku using a massive Kamehameha against Freeza's Nova Strike? No noticeable energy cut, even when Goku screamed max power and amplified his Ki, which should leave him totally drained, yet it doesn't. 3rd party content endorsed by Toriyama is still superior to one's opinion as far as I'm concerned. SSJ is and always will be 50 times base for me.

1. the daiz was not endorsed by akira toriyama. nowhere did he ever sign off on it, nor did he ever make any statements that it was canon. it was created entirely by people who had no involvement with the creation of the manga. none of them were akira toriyama, his assistant, or employees of shonen jump. that's kind of what 3rd party means, you know. an outside source that was not involved in the original work.

2. the ship is not absorbing offensive energy. that's why damage needed to be done. it's only absorbing the energy lost from the damage done, not all the energy in the area. if it was the latter case, dabura could have just powered up and let off ki blasts all day, and they wouldn't need to collect any outside energy. and it can't be absorbing more energy than is released from the damage being dealt. it's not pulling more energy than the person has. if it was, babidi would have just had dabura and yakon blast each other all day, and it would have filled up before either of them dropped. or, if you believe dabura was a makaioshin, and his energy would be unusable, then yakon and pui pui, instead.

3. fine. except you still have to explain yakon vs. ssj goku. without just brushing it off. actually explain it, and provide evidence for your explanation. how did base goku survive despite being less than 1/10th of yakon's power?

1. Yes, yes they are. Need I bring up all the introductions he gave for the Daizenshuu. He was clearly involved in the production of these things.
2. I'm aware damage is transferring the energy. My point is, every hit could equate to one's battle power at most since one's energy is not cut whenever Ki is used. Battle power is more complex than having X amount of energy and losing Y amount of energy when Ki is used.
3. I think Goku is suppressed. Simple really.

Quote:

 

declare one's public approval or support of.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 04:08 PM

1. You don't seem to understand what endorsed means:

Quote:

 

declare one's public approval or support of.

If Toriyama finds these things useful, he clearly endorses them. You're merely feigning ignorance to try and support what you believe is the case.
2. You don't seem to understand what I'm getting at. One's power level doesn't drop when Ki is used up. That's all I'm saying. Damage clearly drains Ki, I'm not arguing with this. Every hit could take up to one's battle power worth in Ki because Ki is not cut when a large attack is used despite the constant flow. If energy attacks work this way, energy taken from damage should also work this way. A constant amount should be drained, and that amount would decrease proportionate loss of Ki taken from damage.
80,000,000 -hit + 80,000,000 to Buu
-1,000,000
__________
79,000,000 -hit + 79,000,000 to Buu
A simple equation that lets the SSJ multiplier remain a constant 50 times. Heck there are other theories out there that you or I haven't even taken into account. Once again, impossible is not a word that should be used until all variables have been considered.
3. Tell me then, can you prove he's not suppressed? Conjecture or not, it's not flat out wrong. Nothing should be brushed aside when it cannot be outright proven to be impossible. Goku being suppressed is a perfectly believable option. What I find funny though is you seem to love jumping up and down claiming the SSJ multiplier can't be 50 times base when everything you're using to prove that it is conjecture. You cannot prove the suppressed base Saiyajins equate to SSJ2 Gohan. That's only a theory. A theory in which your numbers still don't match since Gohan is still more than twice as strong as your numbers for the base Saiyajins. What Dabura says is not proof that the SSJ multiplier has dropped.

lunar2

May 21 2014, 04:45 AM

nope. but it was recorded what his ssj power was when he was generating an aura, something that, up till then, was only shown when someone is using most, if not all, of their power. so unless the pattern inexplicably changed, goku was using more than half of his ssj power against yakon.