lunar2

May 19 2014, 01:36 PM

and besides trunks vs. #18, ssj goku vs. yakon, suppressed base saiyans vs. pui pui vs. actual vegeta compared to ssj2 gohan, and the basic patterns set up in the frieza arc in terms of power gaps, what did you ignore to get those numbers to work? because it is flat out impossible to do it without ignoring all that, and that's just what i remember off the top of my head.

Emmeth

May 19 2014, 01:44 PM

18: Suppressed/Holding back
Pocus and Yakon: Overrated

Actual Vegeta vs SSJ2 Gohan? You need to explain this one for me.

Naked Snake

May 19 2014, 07:43 PM

Goku : Wait, Lord Beerus is comin' here?
Kaio : Go and hide, Goku. Quickly, before he gets here!

Paraphrased, of course, but the mere fact that Kaio tells Goku to hide means that Bills reads energy through conventional means.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 19 2014, 07:28 PM

So in other words Dabura is assuming the might of 3 Saiyajins will equate to 100 times base Gohan's power? Even if we assume SSJ's multiplier has dropped. It's certainly not below 3 times based on the Kiri reading for SSJ Goku. With that in mind, SSJ2 is 2 times base so Dabura is assuming 6 times Gohan's full power equates to these 3, whom are clearly suppressed in comparison to Gohan's base maximum? I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. It's much easier to assume taking damage provides a lot of energy for Buu. I mean a short scuffle between SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta was enough to revive Buu.

Emmeth

May 19 2014, 07:48 PM

Naked Snake

May 19 2014, 07:43 PM

Goku : Wait, Lord Beerus is comin' here?
Kaio : Go and hide, Goku. Quickly, before he gets here!

Paraphrased, of course, but the mere fact that Kaio tells Goku to hide means that Bills reads energy through conventional means.

And then he goes ahead and finds Goku anyway. Either Beerus is extremely good at sensing ki (and in that case, he would know if Goku was suppressing) or he has another way of sensing.

lunar2

May 19 2014, 11:55 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 19 2014, 07:28 PM

So in other words Dabura is assuming the might of 3 Saiyajins will equate to 100 times base Gohan's power? Even if we assume SSJ's multiplier has dropped. It's certainly not below 3 times based on the Kiri reading for SSJ Goku. With that in mind, SSJ2 is 2 times base so Dabura is assuming 6 times Gohan's full power equates to these 3, whom are clearly suppressed in comparison to Gohan's base maximum? I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. It's much easier to assume taking damage provides a lot of energy for Buu. I mean a short scuffle between SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta was enough to revive Buu.

if you had read the numbers, it came out to the average of the 3 suppressed base saiyans (actually gohan's full power, which works in favor of a higher ssj multiplier) being a little over 1/2 ssj2 gohan, which allows a 3.66x ssj multiplier with a 2x ssj2 multiplier. that 3.66x ssj multiplier puts ssj goku over 3.75x as powerful as yakon, assuming base goku had a 5% advantage over yakon.

in other words, if you take the liberty that the suppressed base saiyans (i should actually say expected base saiyans, since babidi and dabura knew they were suppressed, they just underestimated by how much in the case of goku and vegeta, who are more skilled than gohan, and could therefore better hide their power under observation) only get buu most of the way there, instead of actually topping him off (which still fits the actual text, so it works. it's just a somewhat different interpretation), the numbers for that section work out perfectly.

as for the damage. the damage can't release more energy than the fighter actually has. even assuming 100% of the power lost is actually absorbed, the saiyans can't contribute more power than they have.

also, with these numbers, goku and majin vegeta ssj2 comes out to 10.69. assuming that both their energy was being contributed to buu, and not just goku, then they would only need to contribute 3 each, which is less than a third of their power. it's also a small enough amount that half a sensu bean would have healed them to full, so it fits with goku wanting to split the bean and double team buu.

but that does lead to an interesting kink in the numbers. assuming that those under babidi's control can be drained, then if babidi and dabura expected pui pui to lose, but do a lot of damage, we can add his energy to the mix which opens up the numbers a bit. as a quick estimate, i'd say a 5x ssj would be possible under that scenario. but you still can't get much more than that without pushing the numbers way further than they are meant to go.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 21 2014, 12:39 AM

lunar2

May 19 2014, 11:55 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

May 19 2014, 07:28 PM

So in other words Dabura is assuming the might of 3 Saiyajins will equate to 100 times base Gohan's power? Even if we assume SSJ's multiplier has dropped. It's certainly not below 3 times based on the Kiri reading for SSJ Goku. With that in mind, SSJ2 is 2 times base so Dabura is assuming 6 times Gohan's full power equates to these 3, whom are clearly suppressed in comparison to Gohan's base maximum? I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. It's much easier to assume taking damage provides a lot of energy for Buu. I mean a short scuffle between SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta was enough to revive Buu.

if you had read the numbers, it came out to the average of the 3 suppressed base saiyans (actually gohan's full power, which works in favor of a higher ssj multiplier) being a little over 1/2 ssj2 gohan, which allows a 3.66x ssj multiplier with a 2x ssj2 multiplier. that 3.66x ssj multiplier puts ssj goku over 3.75x as powerful as yakon, assuming base goku had a 5% advantage over yakon.

in other words, if you take the liberty that the suppressed base saiyans (i should actually say expected base saiyans, since babidi and dabura knew they were suppressed, they just underestimated by how much in the case of goku and vegeta, who are more skilled than gohan, and could therefore better hide their power under observation) only get buu most of the way there, instead of actually topping him off (which still fits the actual text, so it works. it's just a somewhat different interpretation), the numbers for that section work out perfectly.

as for the damage. the damage can't release more energy than the fighter actually has. even assuming 100% of the power lost is actually absorbed, the saiyans can't contribute more power than they have.

also, with these numbers, goku and majin vegeta ssj2 comes out to 10.69. assuming that both their energy was being contributed to buu, and not just goku, then they would only need to contribute 3 each, which is less than a third of their power. it's also a small enough amount that half a sensu bean would have healed them to full, so it fits with goku wanting to split the bean and double team buu.

but that does lead to an interesting kink in the numbers. assuming that those under babidi's control can be drained, then if babidi and dabura expected pui pui to lose, but do a lot of damage, we can add his energy to the mix which opens up the numbers a bit. as a quick estimate, i'd say a 5x ssj would be possible under that scenario. but you still can't get much more than that without pushing the numbers way further than they are meant to go.

Only, there's a problem. That conflicts with the official SSJ multiplier. Even if it dropped, I don't think it would drop below 5 times at most. I also don't see how Dabura's statement conflicts with anything. Damage being dealt to anyone provides Buu with a great deal of energy. Majin Vegeta and Goku provided the remaining half of Buu's energy after a short scuffle.

Havoc_Wreaker

May 18 2014, 10:05 PM

i thought it was a good movie
as far as im concerned its cannon
and lunar convered the, goten/trunks age discrepancy, its just AT's style
which can be seen with goku in db

pretty sure, the power up is temp and permanent
the power he got, he kept but its just not as strong as it was initially, meaning he retained most of the god powers