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[Summer 2014 Budokai] Gohan's State vs Dabura; Naked Snake vs Urameshi
Topic Started: May 4 2014, 10:45 PM (3,714 Views)
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Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Right, I'll start off with my opening statement.

In this debate, I intend to show that Gohan was in his SSJ2 state in the fight with Dabra or that, at the very least, it's a likely possibility. I'll be making concise posts, with statements, implications and photographic evidence, along with my personal opinion on the matter.

I'll hand it over to Yusuke, so he can clarify his position.
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Thanks Snake.

My position in this debate is that Gohan was indeed an SSJ for his entire fight with Dabra based on the fight itself and other things to go along with it.

I'll hand it over to Snake to make his first couple of points in this debate.
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Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Round 2, Match 1: Naked Snake vs Urameshi

Topic: Gohan's State vs Dabura

Rules:

1) Only the thread's participants are allowed to post.
2) Participants will be eliminated if they don't respond within 48 hours.
3) The debate must be concluded within 1 week.
4) Everybody is expected to be civil during the tournament.

For the two matches in progress, an extra 2 days will be given for response time.

Good luck and have fun!


This will be resumed!
Edited by Emmeth, Jul 31 2014, 06:50 PM.
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Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

So it begins!

I'll be arguing that Gohan was a SSJ2 during the fight with Dabra.

Firstly, I'll tackle the context (which is completely relevant, by the way). Gohan's battling against Dabra and he knows that the only way to reverse the effects of his stone spit on Piccolo and Krillin is by defeating him. This would surely be enough motivation for him to go all-out in the battle. Moving swiftly on, there's quite an obvious reason why Gohan was SSJ2 in the battle. At the Budokai, he transformed into a SSJ2 while showing Kibito his power. There are two points that can be made using this;

1) Gohan can transform into a SSJ2 without rage
2) Goku and Vegeta saw him transform

Now, Goku and Vegeta don't call Gohan out on not using SSJ2 during the battle, so it's likely that they were comparing his SSJ2 form to what it was 7 years prior. We hardly saw MSSJ Gohan do anything at the Cell Games, aside from an attack or two and taking hits like a champ. Everyone saw Gohan fight as a SSJ2, so we can conclude that they were talking about SSJ2, as MSSJ Gohan was quickly overshadowed by his new transformation.

Goku claims that Gohan needs to get angry in order to draw out his true power. He doesn't reference transforming at all, so it's logical to say that he was referring to a rage boost.

SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Angry) > SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Calm) >~ Dabra

Goku knows that Gohan can transform at will, so the anger comment wasn't about his ability to transform. He would've said something along the lines of;

"Use your anger and transform like you did back then. Do that, and you won't lose to anyone."

Well, that about wraps up my opening post.
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Naked Snake
Jul 28 2014, 05:49 PM
So it begins!

I'll be arguing that Gohan was a SSJ2 during the fight with Dabra.

Firstly, I'll tackle the context (which is completely relevant, by the way). Gohan's battling against Dabra and he knows that the only way to reverse the effects of his stone spit on Piccolo and Krillin is by defeating him. This would surely be enough motivation for him to go all-out in the battle. Moving swiftly on, there's quite an obvious reason why Gohan was SSJ2 in the battle. At the Budokai, he transformed into a SSJ2 while showing Kibito his power. There are two points that can be made using this;

1) Gohan can transform into a SSJ2 without rage
2) Goku and Vegeta saw him transform

Now, Goku and Vegeta don't call Gohan out on not using SSJ2 during the battle, so it's likely that they were comparing his SSJ2 form to what it was 7 years prior. We hardly saw MSSJ Gohan do anything at the Cell Games, aside from an attack or two and taking hits like a champ. Everyone saw Gohan fight as a SSJ2, so we can conclude that they were talking about SSJ2, as MSSJ Gohan was quickly overshadowed by his new transformation.

Goku claims that Gohan needs to get angry in order to draw out his true power. He doesn't reference transforming at all, so it's logical to say that he was referring to a rage boost.

SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Angry) > SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Calm) >~ Dabra

Goku knows that Gohan can transform at will, so the anger comment wasn't about his ability to transform. He would've said something along the lines of;

"Use your anger and transform like you did back then. Do that, and you won't lose to anyone."

Well, that about wraps up my opening post.
Well, allow me to make my case for Gohan being an SSJ in the fight and then I shall address your points. And I agree, context in this issue is very relevant.

Sorry if this post is rather short. This post will be mainly providing Manga Scans hence me only adding tidbits and information to what you see in the panels.

First of all, we need to take a look at the different aura's of both SSJ and SSJ2. AT makes it very clear when the said character is using either SSJ or SSJ2. I'll use Goku a lot here because we see him go SSJ/SSJ2 the most in this Arc.

Here are various scans of Goku using SSJ...

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Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Notice how in pretty much every instance Goku used SSJ his aura never has any sparks or anything that would clearly indicate SSJ2? All of these appearances clearly indicate SSJ by the aura shown in the panels.

This is further evident before Goku and Majin Vegeta are about to fight.

Posted Image

Posted Image

AT makes the clear distinction of showing SSJ from SSJ2 by having Goku and Majin Vegeta shown as SSJ's in the first panel without any sparks. Later on, Goku goes SSJ2 and we can clearly see from the bottom panel the differences between the auras of SSJ and SSJ2. One is rather plain while the other has sparks and is more rigid.

While all of the above may seem like a lot, it's useful in determining when SSJ2 is used and how we can identify the form when it's being used. I think it's safe to say, based on all the panels shown that...

SSJ = Flame Aura, nothing else
SSJ2 = A More Rigid Flame Aura with Sparks to identify the forms usage.

Now, lets have a look at the major question at hand in this topic, Gohan's SSJ state when fighting Dabura.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

With the differences of SSJ and SSJ2 in mind, how can one argue that Gohan was an SSJ2 when clearly, throughout this fight he's shown with an SSJ aura and never the former? AT always makes sure to differentiate the two forms. If that wasn't enough, lets have a look at Gohan's aura at the Budokai...

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

What were seeing here is a very distinct differentiation between Gohan having an SSJ2 aura in the Budokai and Gohan having a SSJ aura in his fight with Dabura. With all those panels taken into consideration, I think it's very safe to say that AT is very careful when showing the differences between the two SSJ forms.

That's it for my Opening Argument, will have more to come as the debate continues. On to your post...

Quote:
 
Firstly, I'll tackle the context (which is completely relevant, by the way). Gohan's battling against Dabra and he knows that the only way to reverse the effects of his stone spit on Piccolo and Krillin is by defeating him. This would surely be enough motivation for him to go all-out in the battle. Moving swiftly on, there's quite an obvious reason why Gohan was SSJ2 in the battle. At the Budokai, he transformed into a SSJ2 while showing Kibito his power. There are two points that can be made using this;

1) Gohan can transform into a SSJ2 without rage
2) Goku and Vegeta saw him transform

Now, Goku and Vegeta don't call Gohan out on not using SSJ2 during the battle, so it's likely that they were comparing his SSJ2 form to what it was 7 years prior. We hardly saw MSSJ Gohan do anything at the Cell Games, aside from an attack or two and taking hits like a champ. Everyone saw Gohan fight as a SSJ2, so we can conclude that they were talking about SSJ2, as MSSJ Gohan was quickly overshadowed by his new transformation.


But everyone was amazed by MSSJ Gohan's power at the Cell Games. This was a kid that just surpassed his own Father who was thought of to be the best in the Z-Group and here comes Gohan wondering if Goku wasn't going all out against Cell and proceeds to show everyone that he was superior to his Father.

Quote:
 
Goku claims that Gohan needs to get angry in order to draw out his true power. He doesn't reference transforming at all, so it's logical to say that he was referring to a rage boost.

SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Angry) > SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Calm) >~ Dabra

Goku knows that Gohan can transform at will, so the anger comment wasn't about his ability to transform. He would've said something along the lines of;

"Use your anger and transform like you did back then. Do that, and you won't lose to anyone."


Is that really necessary though? Goku @The Cell Games pretty much banked on Gohan's ability to beat Cell by his anger alone and not another transformation. Throughout all of Gohan's fights, he was shown to obtain power through Rage Boost's alone and not extra transformations. Goku could very well be banking on just a rage boost based on that.
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Yu Narukami
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Urameshi
Jul 29 2014, 07:00 PM
Naked Snake
Jul 28 2014, 05:49 PM
So it begins!

I'll be arguing that Gohan was a SSJ2 during the fight with Dabra.

Firstly, I'll tackle the context (which is completely relevant, by the way). Gohan's battling against Dabra and he knows that the only way to reverse the effects of his stone spit on Piccolo and Krillin is by defeating him. This would surely be enough motivation for him to go all-out in the battle. Moving swiftly on, there's quite an obvious reason why Gohan was SSJ2 in the battle. At the Budokai, he transformed into a SSJ2 while showing Kibito his power. There are two points that can be made using this;

1) Gohan can transform into a SSJ2 without rage
2) Goku and Vegeta saw him transform

Now, Goku and Vegeta don't call Gohan out on not using SSJ2 during the battle, so it's likely that they were comparing his SSJ2 form to what it was 7 years prior. We hardly saw MSSJ Gohan do anything at the Cell Games, aside from an attack or two and taking hits like a champ. Everyone saw Gohan fight as a SSJ2, so we can conclude that they were talking about SSJ2, as MSSJ Gohan was quickly overshadowed by his new transformation.

Goku claims that Gohan needs to get angry in order to draw out his true power. He doesn't reference transforming at all, so it's logical to say that he was referring to a rage boost.

SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Angry) > SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Calm) >~ Dabra

Goku knows that Gohan can transform at will, so the anger comment wasn't about his ability to transform. He would've said something along the lines of;

"Use your anger and transform like you did back then. Do that, and you won't lose to anyone."

Well, that about wraps up my opening post.
Well, allow me to make my case for Gohan being an SSJ in the fight and then I shall address your points. And I agree, context in this issue is very relevant.

Sorry if this post is rather short. This post will be mainly providing Manga Scans hence me only adding tidbits and information to what you see in the panels.

First of all, we need to take a look at the different aura's of both SSJ and SSJ2. AT makes it very clear when the said character is using either SSJ or SSJ2. I'll use Goku a lot here because we see him go SSJ/SSJ2 the most in this Arc.

Here are various scans of Goku using SSJ...

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Notice how in pretty much every instance Goku used SSJ his aura never has any sparks or anything that would clearly indicate SSJ2? All of these appearances clearly indicate SSJ by the aura shown in the panels.

This is further evident before Goku and Majin Vegeta are about to fight.

Posted Image

Posted Image

AT makes the clear distinction of showing SSJ from SSJ2 by having Goku and Majin Vegeta shown as SSJ's in the first panel without any sparks. Later on, Goku goes SSJ2 and we can clearly see from the bottom panel the differences between the auras of SSJ and SSJ2. One is rather plain while the other has sparks and is more rigid.

While all of the above may seem like a lot, it's useful in determining when SSJ2 is used and how we can identify the form when it's being used. I think it's safe to say, based on all the panels shown that...

SSJ = Flame Aura, nothing else
SSJ2 = A More Rigid Flame Aura with Sparks to identify the forms usage.

Now, lets have a look at the major question at hand in this topic, Gohan's SSJ state when fighting Dabura.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

With the differences of SSJ and SSJ2 in mind, how can one argue that Gohan was an SSJ2 when clearly, throughout this fight he's shown with an SSJ aura and never the former? AT always makes sure to differentiate the two forms. If that wasn't enough, lets have a look at Gohan's aura at the Budokai...

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

What were seeing here is a very distinct differentiation between Gohan having an SSJ2 aura in the Budokai and Gohan having a SSJ aura in his fight with Dabura. With all those panels taken into consideration, I think it's very safe to say that AT is very careful when showing the differences between the two SSJ forms.

That's it for my Opening Argument, will have more to come as the debate continues. On to your post...

Quote:
 
Firstly, I'll tackle the context (which is completely relevant, by the way). Gohan's battling against Dabra and he knows that the only way to reverse the effects of his stone spit on Piccolo and Krillin is by defeating him. This would surely be enough motivation for him to go all-out in the battle. Moving swiftly on, there's quite an obvious reason why Gohan was SSJ2 in the battle. At the Budokai, he transformed into a SSJ2 while showing Kibito his power. There are two points that can be made using this;

1) Gohan can transform into a SSJ2 without rage
2) Goku and Vegeta saw him transform

Now, Goku and Vegeta don't call Gohan out on not using SSJ2 during the battle, so it's likely that they were comparing his SSJ2 form to what it was 7 years prior. We hardly saw MSSJ Gohan do anything at the Cell Games, aside from an attack or two and taking hits like a champ. Everyone saw Gohan fight as a SSJ2, so we can conclude that they were talking about SSJ2, as MSSJ Gohan was quickly overshadowed by his new transformation.


But everyone was amazed by MSSJ Gohan's power at the Cell Games. This was a kid that just surpassed his own Father who was thought of to be the best in the Z-Group and here comes Gohan wondering if Goku wasn't going all out against Cell and proceeds to show everyone that he was superior to his Father.

Quote:
 
Goku claims that Gohan needs to get angry in order to draw out his true power. He doesn't reference transforming at all, so it's logical to say that he was referring to a rage boost.

SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Angry) > SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Calm) >~ Dabra

Goku knows that Gohan can transform at will, so the anger comment wasn't about his ability to transform. He would've said something along the lines of;

"Use your anger and transform like you did back then. Do that, and you won't lose to anyone."


Is that really necessary though? Goku @The Cell Games pretty much banked on Gohan's ability to beat Cell by his anger alone and not another transformation. Throughout all of Gohan's fights, he was shown to obtain power through Rage Boost's alone and not extra transformations. Goku could very well be banking on just a rage boost based on that.

I concede on the art point as a whole, but the context and intention surrounding the situation supports my argument
I've got some things going on, so this will likely be my last post, so I'll make it count.

You make a very good point regarding the differences between SSJ and SSJ2. However, this is where context comes in. If Gohan was fighting in SSJ, surely it would've been noted by Goku or Vegeta, who had seen him transform easily into a SSJ2 not an hour ago. You could argue that he was angry at the tournament and that's why he was able to transform, but then you'd have to argue that Videl getting beat up made him angrier than Krillin and Piccolo, his two best friends, being turned into stone. I'd welcome such an argument, so try if you wish.

Furthermore, one can argue that Toriyama intended Gohan to be SSJ2 in the battle. He had just shown Gohan transforming quite easily at the Budokai, and Goku's comment (which I'll get to in a bit) suggests that Gohan was SSJ2 for the duration of the battle. Now, if you take a look at 50% Kid Gohan at the Cell Games and Majin Vegeta after his battle with Goku, you'll notice that neither of them have sparks in some panels. I believe that the lack of sparks indicate that they are quite weak and don't have enough ki to cause the sparks. Recall Kibito when he was healing Gohan at the Budokai; he was shocked at how much power Gohan had. With this, it's possible that Kibito wasn't able to heal Gohan fully. If this is the case, then he may have been too weak to have any sparks, as 50% Kid Gohan and Majin Vegeta were. If this is the case, we would have;

SSJ2 Gohan (Angry) > SSJ2 Gohan (Resting/Budokai) > SSJ2 Gohan (@Dabra) >~ Dabra

We see that Vegeta has attained the SSJ2 transformation during Goku's battle with Yakon, and there would be no real reason to hide that fact. So when we get his statement that he could flatten Dabra with ease, we can assume that he's talking about his SSJ2 form.

SSJ2 Gohan (Angry) > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan (Budokai) > SSJ2 Gohan (@Dabra) >~ Dabra

Vegeta never makes a comment about how Gohan should use SSJ2, so it wood be logical to conclude that he was actually using the form.

Now, regarding Goku's comment;

He was relying on a rage boost, yeah. However, he had seen Gohan transform into a SSJ2 during the Budokai. If he knew that Gohan could transform and get stronger, why didn't he simply tell Gohan to do that? Why would he specify anger? Unless Dabra was over twice as strong as Gohan, it wouldn't make any sense. Anger was Gohan's only way to succeed without fail, not SSJ2, so Gohan could only have been a SSJ2 during the battle. Even Gohan states that he 'couldn't get angry like back then'. We just saw him transform at the Budokai, so it's just anger that's the issue, not transforming.
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Quote:
 
You make a very good point regarding the differences between SSJ and SSJ2. However, this is where context comes in. If Gohan was fighting in SSJ, surely it would've been noted by Goku or Vegeta, who had seen him transform easily into a SSJ2 not an hour ago. You could argue that he was angry at the tournament and that's why he was able to transform, but then you'd have to argue that Videl getting beat up made him angrier than Krillin and Piccolo, his two best friends, being turned into stone. I'd welcome such an argument, so try if you wish.


Quote:
 
Now, regarding Goku's comment;

He was relying on a rage boost, yeah. However, he had seen Gohan transform into a SSJ2 during the Budokai. If he knew that Gohan could transform and get stronger, why didn't he simply tell Gohan to do that? Why would he specify anger? Unless Dabra was over twice as strong as Gohan, it wouldn't make any sense. Anger was Gohan's only way to succeed without fail, not SSJ2, so Gohan could only have been a SSJ2 during the battle. Even Gohan states that he 'couldn't get angry like back then'. We just saw him transform at the Budokai, so it's just anger that's the issue, not transforming.


Why would it need to be commented on? SSJ Gohan was arguably fighting on the same level (if not, stronger) as Dabura in that fight. It really has nothing to do with Anger seeing as Gohan didn't need to be angry to go SSJ2 at the tournament.

Seeing as Gohan could fight Dabura as an SSJ, Goku's statement could very well mean he wants Gohan to get a rage boost on top of his power to beat Dabura as he's already on the same level as him...

SSJ Gohan (Angry) > SSJ Gohan (Normal) ~ Dabura

Quote:
 
Furthermore, one can argue that Toriyama intended Gohan to be SSJ2 in the battle. He had just shown Gohan transforming quite easily at the Budokai, and Goku's comment (which I'll get to in a bit) suggests that Gohan was SSJ2 for the duration of the battle. Now, if you take a look at 50% Kid Gohan at the Cell Games and Majin Vegeta after his battle with Goku, you'll notice that neither of them have sparks in some panels. I believe that the lack of sparks indicate that they are quite weak and don't have enough ki to cause the sparks. Recall Kibito when he was healing Gohan at the Budokai; he was shocked at how much power Gohan had. With this, it's possible that Kibito wasn't able to heal Gohan fully. If this is the case, then he may have been too weak to have any sparks, as 50% Kid Gohan and Majin Vegeta were. If this is the case, we would have;

SSJ2 Gohan (Angry) > SSJ2 Gohan (Resting/Budokai) > SSJ2 Gohan (@Dabra) >~ Dabra

Vegeta never makes a comment about how Gohan should use SSJ2, so it wood be logical to conclude that he was actually using the form.


The only problem with the Majin Vegeta example is that him not having sparks at that point of time was just an inconsistency.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Vegeta is shown to have sparks just a few panels before not having it. This is just a case of Toriyama forgetting it which is very rare as shown in my previous posts. Also...

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He also makes this mistake again as you can see in the top panel. He clearly just ate the Senzu and he doesn't have his sparks in that particular panel. It's just an inconsistency by AT, very rare for him to do that. Other than that particular example, Toriyama always to make sure to signify the use of SSJ2 through the use of sparks which was lacking in every single panel of Gohan VS Dabura.

Quote:
 
I've got some things going on, so this will likely be my last post, so I'll make it count.


Alright man, things happen and such. I guess the judges can start with the judging process.
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Havoc_Wreaker
 
Naked Snake: 7.2
Urameshi: 8


Naked Snake
Pros: very clear and concise points, logical deductions,
Cons: no outside information, no manga scans(this hurt since, at least one of your points for ex, goku and vegeta not having lightning but no scan or anything to go with it)

Urameshi

Pros: great point about the difference between the different auras(between ssj1 and 2) and ssj2 having lightning, provided various manga scans to illustrate your point
Cons: no outside information


Squall Leonheart
 
Yusuke: 7

Naked Snake: 6.5

Pros for Yusuke: VERY strong opening on his part, and only a small gradual decline from there. Although that may be chalked up to the rather short debate here.

Pros for Snake: Some good responses, but ultimately left a feeling of you didn't put your heart and soul into it. The things going on is what I'm assuming is the culprit.


Itachi
 
I saw this debate was somewhat the opposite of how I saw Kienzan vs Urameshi. The "right answer" seems a bit less important here since it really is up for grabs. The evidence for both sides is very convincing - the same person on different day could end up choosing another side.

Naked Snake: 6
Urameshi: 4.8

Naked Snake

Pros: Great attention detail being very succinct - dare I say improvement from last round? Who'd of thought someone so good could improve.
Cons: Should be obvious; this one was way too short. I feel like I could have given harsher penalties for a debate that was shorter due to one side being unavailable.

Urameshi

Pros: Organized and methodical
Cons: He seemed like he was a step down from his previous round against Kienzan. There was so much more to exploit in terms of counters that could have given him the victory. If I had to pinpoint why... I'd say he fell too much into Naked Snake debate flow.


Urameshi Grand Total: 19. 8
Snake Grand Total: 19.7

After factoring in all the math it looks like we have a serious underdog victory. Urameshi, a first time player, is now a finalist! Congrats!

Good job Naked Snake for making it this far and putting up a fair fight.

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Izanagi!

Congrats, Urameshi! It was a fun debate. You'd better win this thing now!
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Thanks NS! This was a great debate.

@Itachi

Just like to point out that this is my 2nd tourney and not my 1st lol.
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Princess_Havoc

are u kidding me, .1 difference wow just wow
good debates guys, this tournament has had a lot of close results
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True, I never seen a Debate end with a .1 difference. This is going into the History books for sure lol.
Edited by Yusuke, Aug 7 2014, 02:57 AM.
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Princess_Havoc

yeah this is the closest debate i have seen
the brofist and ketchup one was almost as close .2 difference

Ketchup Grand Total: 24.2
Brofist Grand Total: 24

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