sekzee

May 2 2014, 08:04 PM

That is all fine and dandy, but you are the one that suggested that the Androids cannot use their energy to amplify their defenses.

19 would have been ripped to shreds otherwise.

The only idiotic inconsistency is Gero's door.

lazerbem

 

Is power level the same as ki? We know that people like Burter and Ginyu have unusually high and low(respectively) speeds, maybe it's the same for strength?

Before you ask, with Ginyu, while he was coasting around in Goku's meager 23,000 body, he said "Haha, this body is even faster".

Travel speed and power level clearly do not align linearly, not at all

The Assassin

May 2 2014, 07:50 PM

Instead of getting mad at me, you need to prove that androids/cyborgs are able to use ki to increase their durability. That argument falls on you since you're the one arguing that.

Manifesting a force stronger than yourself is not the same thing as increasing your durability with ki, because that ki, once manifested, is no longer a part of your body.

For example, once Goku manifests a Kamehameha, that's not part of his body. His durability doesn't increase because that Kamehameha is manifested. Just because you can't see the ki doesn't mean that it isn't being used. For example, Goku's ki increased against Raditz when he took his weights off. You couldn't see physically it, but never the less, we knew that his ki had increased because Raditz tells us that it had.

Quote:

 

Androids/Cyborgs (since the don't have ki) are not capable of improving their own bodies through ki like organic people can.

bardock1990

May 2 2014, 08:15 PM

The Assassin

May 2 2014, 07:50 PM

Instead of getting mad at me, you need to prove that androids/cyborgs are able to use ki to increase their durability. That argument falls on you since you're the one arguing that.

Manifesting a force stronger than yourself is not the same thing as increasing your durability with ki, because that ki, once manifested, is no longer a part of your body.

For example, once Goku manifests a Kamehameha, that's not part of his body. His durability doesn't increase because that Kamehameha is manifested. Just because you can't see the ki doesn't mean that it isn't being used. For example, Goku's ki increased against Raditz when he took his weights off. You couldn't see physically it, but never the less, we knew that his ki had increased because Raditz tells us that it had.

What is it with you and your constant explanation of KI and non-KI forms? I have made it pretty clear to you that that is not what I am talking about, and you're right about what Ki is and is not but it's beside the point. Maybe you're still hung up on when I said "17's KI shield"? I acknowledge that he does not have KI. How about you acknowledge that you made a mistake earlier when you said that the Androids cannot make their bodies stronger. Here is your quote from earlier:

Quote:

 

Androids/Cyborgs (since the don't have ki) are not capable of improving their own bodies through ki like organic people can.

Which is false and you should own up to it instead of challenging me to prove something that I redacted already.

The issue here is that the Androids ARE able to make their bodies more durable and I have proven it by pointing out 17's shield. I do not know if AT ever went into details about it but they do have some kind of force that increases their durability. I personally never needed proof of this because honestly, who believes that the Androids are made of material that can withstand attacks from guys who can easily blow up planets? Nobody.

The Assassin

May 2 2014, 08:22 PM

I didn't make a mistake because you haven't proven it. Why would I apologize for something that I didn't make a mistake on?

Quote:

 

You have continually failed to explain how ki increases physical durability in androids. All you've said is that they can create ki shields, and it was confirmed as canon by lazerbem. But manifesting ki and increasing your durability with ki isn't the same thing, and I've already explained why numerous times.

bardock1990

May 2 2014, 08:15 PM

The Assassin

May 2 2014, 07:50 PM

Instead of getting mad at me, you need to prove that androids/cyborgs are able to use ki to increase their durability. That argument falls on you since you're the one arguing that.

Manifesting a force stronger than yourself is not the same thing as increasing your durability with ki, because that ki, once manifested, is no longer a part of your body.

For example, once Goku manifests a Kamehameha, that's not part of his body. His durability doesn't increase because that Kamehameha is manifested. Just because you can't see the ki doesn't mean that it isn't being used. For example, Goku's ki increased against Raditz when he took his weights off. You couldn't see physically it, but never the less, we knew that his ki had increased because Raditz tells us that it had.

What is it with you and your constant explanation of KI and non-KI forms? I have made it pretty clear to you that that is not what I am talking about, and you're right about what Ki is and is not but it's beside the point. Maybe you're still hung up on when I said "17's KI shield"? I acknowledge that he does not have KI. How about you acknowledge that you made a mistake earlier when you said that the Androids cannot make their bodies stronger. Here is your quote from earlier:

Quote:

 

Androids/Cyborgs (since the don't have ki) are not capable of improving their own bodies through ki like organic people can.

Which is false and you should own up to it instead of challenging me to prove something that I redacted already.

The issue here is that the Androids ARE able to make their bodies more durable and I have proven it by pointing out 17's shield. I do not know if AT ever went into details about it but they do have some kind of force that increases their durability. I personally never needed proof of this because honestly, who believes that the Androids are made of material that can withstand attacks from guys who can easily blow up planets? Nobody.

bardock1990

May 2 2014, 08:29 PM

The Assassin

May 2 2014, 08:22 PM

I didn't make a mistake because you haven't proven it. Why would I apologize for something that I didn't make a mistake on?

Are you serious? I literally showed you the quote where you said that Androids are not able to make their bodies more durable with their energy, and then I pointed out that 17 used his shield made by his articifial energy which protected him from Piccolo's massive attack, proving you wrong.

I already proved it, and do not tell me I "need" to do anything so don't give me orders. I also did not ask you to apologize for anything, only for you to admit that you made a mistake, but I can tell that you have way too much pride to do that. I could tell already when you got desperate and tried to pass off 17's shield scene as non-canon.

Quote:

 

You have continually failed to explain how ki increases physical durability in androids. All you've said is that they can create ki shields, and it was confirmed as canon by lazerbem. But manifesting ki and increasing your durability with ki isn't the same thing, and I've already explained why numerous times.

I imagine that they are using that ariticial energy from the shield throughout their bodies during the fight to protect them, you just don't see a circle around them.

I wanna ask, do you actually believe that the metals they are made of are durable enough on their own to withstand attacks from planet busters like Piccolo?

lazerbem

May 2 2014, 08:39 PM

bardock1990

May 2 2014, 08:15 PM

The Assassin

May 2 2014, 07:50 PM

Instead of getting mad at me, you need to prove that androids/cyborgs are able to use ki to increase their durability. That argument falls on you since you're the one arguing that.

Manifesting a force stronger than yourself is not the same thing as increasing your durability with ki, because that ki, once manifested, is no longer a part of your body.

For example, once Goku manifests a Kamehameha, that's not part of his body. His durability doesn't increase because that Kamehameha is manifested. Just because you can't see the ki doesn't mean that it isn't being used. For example, Goku's ki increased against Raditz when he took his weights off. You couldn't see physically it, but never the less, we knew that his ki had increased because Raditz tells us that it had.

What is it with you and your constant explanation of KI and non-KI forms? I have made it pretty clear to you that that is not what I am talking about, and you're right about what Ki is and is not but it's beside the point. Maybe you're still hung up on when I said "17's KI shield"? I acknowledge that he does not have KI. How about you acknowledge that you made a mistake earlier when you said that the Androids cannot make their bodies stronger. Here is your quote from earlier:

Quote:

 

Androids/Cyborgs (since the don't have ki) are not capable of improving their own bodies through ki like organic people can.

Which is false and you should own up to it instead of challenging me to prove something that I redacted already.

The issue here is that the Androids ARE able to make their bodies more durable and I have proven it by pointing out 17's shield. I do not know if AT ever went into details about it but they do have some kind of force that increases their durability. I personally never needed proof of this because honestly, who believes that the Androids are made of material that can withstand attacks from guys who can easily blow up planets? Nobody.

Making a ki shield is not the same thing as enhancing your body, with a ki shield, the shield takes the impact, not your body. Otherwise, Freeza would have been ripped to shreds by the Kamehameha(You don't stop gigantic blasts from rivals just by focusing your ki)

Enhancing your body is something like what Freeza tried to do to Goku in their fight. You very clearly see Freeza's fist gain an aura as he tries a kidney shot on SSJ Goku. Presumably, this is defensive and offensive.

And the androids are just that tough presumably. Gero was an absolute genius, making strong metals surely isn't that hard. Who knows, maybe they are super dense and so they're heavy as Hell

bardock1990

May 2 2014, 09:01 PM

lazerbem

May 2 2014, 08:39 PM

bardock1990

May 2 2014, 08:15 PM

The Assassin

May 2 2014, 07:50 PM

Instead of getting mad at me, you need to prove that androids/cyborgs are able to use ki to increase their durability. That argument falls on you since you're the one arguing that.

Manifesting a force stronger than yourself is not the same thing as increasing your durability with ki, because that ki, once manifested, is no longer a part of your body.

For example, once Goku manifests a Kamehameha, that's not part of his body. His durability doesn't increase because that Kamehameha is manifested. Just because you can't see the ki doesn't mean that it isn't being used. For example, Goku's ki increased against Raditz when he took his weights off. You couldn't see physically it, but never the less, we knew that his ki had increased because Raditz tells us that it had.

What is it with you and your constant explanation of KI and non-KI forms? I have made it pretty clear to you that that is not what I am talking about, and you're right about what Ki is and is not but it's beside the point. Maybe you're still hung up on when I said "17's KI shield"? I acknowledge that he does not have KI. How about you acknowledge that you made a mistake earlier when you said that the Androids cannot make their bodies stronger. Here is your quote from earlier:

Quote:

 

Androids/Cyborgs (since the don't have ki) are not capable of improving their own bodies through ki like organic people can.

Which is false and you should own up to it instead of challenging me to prove something that I redacted already.

The issue here is that the Androids ARE able to make their bodies more durable and I have proven it by pointing out 17's shield. I do not know if AT ever went into details about it but they do have some kind of force that increases their durability. I personally never needed proof of this because honestly, who believes that the Androids are made of material that can withstand attacks from guys who can easily blow up planets? Nobody.

Making a ki shield is not the same thing as enhancing your body, with a ki shield, the shield takes the impact, not your body. Otherwise, Freeza would have been ripped to shreds by the Kamehameha(You don't stop gigantic blasts from rivals just by focusing your ki)

Enhancing your body is something like what Freeza tried to do to Goku in their fight. You very clearly see Freeza's fist gain an aura as he tries a kidney shot on SSJ Goku. Presumably, this is defensive and offensive.

And the androids are just that tough presumably. Gero was an absolute genius, making strong metals surely isn't that hard. Who knows, maybe they are super dense and so they're heavy as Hell

It's a circular shield yes, but why wouldn't they be able to make a shield that fits around their entire body? They clearly are able to generate a protective barrier, it would not make any sense to only use it sometimes. It appears that for the Piccolo scene, 17 enhanced the shield into a large circular shape as to ensure more protection than usual.This to me sounds far more plausible than the metal of the androids being tough enough to withstand planet busting attack. That brings another problem, 17 and 18 are Cyborgs. Which means they have muscle tissue, blood etc.

They just have mechanical parts inside their bodies. How would Gero make 17 and 18's bodies tough enough when they're not fully mechanical, and they don't have KI like the humans to protect them?

EDIT-Just noticed your post above, Assassin. This reply is directed towards you and your close mindedness as well since you're both arguing the same thing.

Ssj3vegito96

May 2 2014, 09:13 PM

This is getting off topic. I'll make what I'm actually asking in OP more clear: android 19 is durable enough to withstand planet destroying attacks. Vegeta was capable of physically literally pulling him apart. Yet we see that goku struggles with 10 tons on one limb. Doesn't vegeta being able to grab something that durable(I don't care where androids get their durability from) and pull it apart mean the 40 tons scene is an outlier?

lazerbem

May 2 2014, 09:16 PM

Ssj3vegito96

May 2 2014, 09:13 PM

This is getting off topic. I'll make what I'm actually asking in OP more clear: android 19 is durable enough to withstand planet destroying attacks. Vegeta was capable of physically literally pulling him apart. Yet we see that goku struggles with 10 tons on one limb. Doesn't vegeta being able to grab something that durable(I don't care where androids get their durability from) and pull it apart mean the 40 tons scene is an outlier?

The joints on a machine are always weaker than the rest. Besides, you can't just scale like that.

SSJ3 Goku's best punch is unable to destroy King Kai's wimpy planet, yet the Cell Jrs, who should logically be able to survive planet busting attacks like Freeza, are quite literally torn limb from limb by SSJ2 Kid Gohan

Is SSJ2 Gohan now stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

lazerbem

May 2 2014, 09:16 PM

Ssj3vegito96

May 2 2014, 09:13 PM

This is getting off topic. I'll make what I'm actually asking in OP more clear: android 19 is durable enough to withstand planet destroying attacks. Vegeta was capable of physically literally pulling him apart. Yet we see that goku struggles with 10 tons on one limb. Doesn't vegeta being able to grab something that durable(I don't care where androids get their durability from) and pull it apart mean the 40 tons scene is an outlier?

The joints on a machine are always weaker than the rest. Besides, you can't just scale like that.

SSJ3 Goku's best punch is unable to destroy King Kai's wimpy planet, yet the Cell Jrs, who should logically be able to survive planet busting attacks like Freeza, are quite literally torn limb from limb by SSJ2 Kid Gohan

Is SSJ2 Gohan now stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

Ssj3vegito96

May 2 2014, 09:19 PM

lazerbem

May 2 2014, 09:16 PM

Ssj3vegito96

May 2 2014, 09:13 PM

This is getting off topic. I'll make what I'm actually asking in OP more clear: android 19 is durable enough to withstand planet destroying attacks. Vegeta was capable of physically literally pulling him apart. Yet we see that goku struggles with 10 tons on one limb. Doesn't vegeta being able to grab something that durable(I don't care where androids get their durability from) and pull it apart mean the 40 tons scene is an outlier?

The joints on a machine are always weaker than the rest. Besides, you can't just scale like that.

SSJ3 Goku's best punch is unable to destroy King Kai's wimpy planet, yet the Cell Jrs, who should logically be able to survive planet busting attacks like Freeza, are quite literally torn limb from limb by SSJ2 Kid Gohan

Is SSJ2 Gohan now stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

The cell jr's weren't torn limb from limb though. They practically exploded when they were hit by gohan's punches

Quote:

 

can you prove that the joints are weaker in the androids?

edit: base freiza also ripped nail's arm off who can also survive planetary destruction

lazerbem

May 2 2014, 09:24 PM

Ssj3vegito96

May 2 2014, 09:19 PM

lazerbem

May 2 2014, 09:16 PM

Ssj3vegito96

May 2 2014, 09:13 PM

This is getting off topic. I'll make what I'm actually asking in OP more clear: android 19 is durable enough to withstand planet destroying attacks. Vegeta was capable of physically literally pulling him apart. Yet we see that goku struggles with 10 tons on one limb. Doesn't vegeta being able to grab something that durable(I don't care where androids get their durability from) and pull it apart mean the 40 tons scene is an outlier?

The joints on a machine are always weaker than the rest. Besides, you can't just scale like that.

SSJ3 Goku's best punch is unable to destroy King Kai's wimpy planet, yet the Cell Jrs, who should logically be able to survive planet busting attacks like Freeza, are quite literally torn limb from limb by SSJ2 Kid Gohan

Is SSJ2 Gohan now stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

The cell jr's weren't torn limb from limb though. They practically exploded when they were hit by gohan's punches

Getting your head exploded when you are hit in the face counts as getting torn limb from limb

Quote:

 

can you prove that the joints are weaker in the androids?

edit: base freiza also ripped nail's arm off who can also survive planetary destruction

It's simple logic. Unless your bot is just a stiff wall, the joints NEED to be weaker to flex around and what not. Vegeta tore off 19's wrists, a joint.

Think about it like this, which is easier, dislocating someone's arm or breaking arm entirely through brute force?

Namekian limbs are really weak though. Piccolo tore off his own arm, that is not a good thing when you can tear off your own arm