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Bojack's gang vs SSJ Broly (Movie 10)
Topic Started: Apr 26 2014, 04:35 AM (3,057 Views)
lunar2
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 03:17 AM
Why? It's 50 times your current power level. Why would it replenish one's Ki, and if that was the case, why wouldn't they just revert and transform again when they're running low?
i explained it in the post you quoted. goku had no power left when he first transformed against frieza, but afterwards he went straight to full. if you use a multiplicative model, then transforming restores your ki. simple as that. as for why they don't do it, they never really have a chance. the only time it would be beneficial is goku at the cell games, but as soon as he realized he needed to get back in the fight, he got jumped by a cell kid, and it would have been suicide to revert to base.

but like i said, that is one of the reasons i don't use a multiplicative model. ssj doesn't restore the ki you've already used, it is just a separate reserve of ki that gets added on to whatever you have left.

base goku 3,000,000
exhausted base goku 0
ssj goku 150,000,000
FP ssj goku 153,000,000

ssj doesn't multiply anything, it just adds a really big number that at that time happened to be 50x goku's base power.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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lunar2
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lazerbem
Apr 27 2014, 03:18 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:14 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 02:32 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 01:58 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 26 2014, 09:52 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 04:58 PM
I know but that was after Gohan lost power from one of Bojack's minions remember? Prior to that, Super Bojack only had a minor lead against Gohan whereas Zangya held her own against a restrained MSSJ Gohan.

Cell's feats are much more impressive given all of that.
Umm Gohan never really held his own against Bojack. The best we see him do is deflect a blast, which wasn't a very impressive one looking Bojack's face. Honestly if Zangya is able to keep up with and deflect blasts from Gohan, it would seem Bojack is not even trying. Thus a conclusion of FP Bojack being stronger than Perfect Cell can be made. Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
using a multiplicative model of ssj transformations (ssj actually multiplies the power you have, instead of just adding some extra power), the initial ssj transformation in a battle has to restore most, if not all, of your ki. goku went from a pl that was essentially 0 (not only was he badly injured, but he was totally exhausted, on top of that) to 150,000,000 when he transformed against frieza. that would mean the transformation restored him to 3,000,000 base, and then multiplied his power by 50. it makes sense for ssj2 to do the same.

that's actually one of the reasons i use an additive model. ssj is actually a separate reserve of ki that just happened to be 50 times the size of base goku's full power in the fight against frieza. so instead of ssj being base x50, it's base +150,000,000 (for that one fight. later ssj transformations add more as the ki reserve is expanded through training). if that's the case, then all the power that gohan lost as an ssj would barely put a dent in his ssj2 power, because the ssj2 ki reserve is just so much bigger than base + ssj put together.
What does this have to do with anything?


Quote:
 
Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
with multiplicative ssj, transforming restores your ki.

lazerbem
Apr 27 2014, 02:34 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 02:27 AM
so gohan not transforming into a form that hadn't been discovered yet is your clue that gohan is weaker? as for the others, nobody except goku knew that gohan was the strongest one there, and goku was saving gohan for cell. also, goku is the only one with any experience handling other people's ki, so he can make better use of it.

there is also the fact that gohan can't be weaker, because he has to be strong enough to take on cell. if gohan is weaker than goku, then he is too weak to win against super perfect cell, even as an ssj2. but we know he won, because earth survived for movie 10 to be made.

also, your estimate of movie 10 broly is very weak. ssj broly > base m10 gohan >> mssj buu arc gohan => mssj goten and trunks. consider this even though base gohan is performing at a much higher level than his canon ssj counterpart possibly could, he still went straight to ssj2 just to combat ssj broly. even ssj gohan would not be enough to beat ssj broly, because broly is still that much more powerful than gohan.

also, lssj broly did not struggle against ssj2 gohan. you might want to rewatch the movie. gohan got thrashed, and was barely able to do anything at all.
Broly got kicked away 4 times, got his hold broken by brute strength, and outsped by Gohan

Another clue to this fact is that in Bio-Broly, Pikkon is expected to help against Broly. That would never happen if Broly was just so strong.

To make it clear, I don't believe in hax, so Base Gohan fighting Broly is, IMO, pure and utter nonsense. Even if you believe in hax, Gohan hardly did better, he didn't even land a single hit on Broly and Broly was clearly toying with him.

Then somehow, LSSJ Broly is getting outsped and knocked away by Gohan?


gohan wasn't haxed in M10. that's how powerful he would actually be if he had spent the 7 years training, like he would have done if he'd fought broly and cell back to back, convincing him that super powerful enemies can pop up out of nowhere. besides, it doesn't matter what you want to believe. what matter is what we are shown, which is gohan performing at an entirely different level than goten and trunks. since they couldn't have been nerfed by the shifting timeline (their power is natural, not from training, so there's no way to make them weaker) that means gohan has to be just as strong as he looks, whether you like it or not. that much is not up for debate. he outright states that he is stronger than he used to be, demonstrating exactly what the break from canon is, and then proves it by casually outperforming two fighters that are on par with his canon self, at least in the same form.

as to the ssj2 vs. lssj.

gohan punches broly, who powers through it and knocks gohan away with his own punch. clear advantage: broly

broly slams gohan into a rock, breaking through it. gohan escapes, and kicks broly, knocking his head to the side a little. broly grabs gohan by the arm, and puts him in a lock. gohan manages to get a little leverage, but has to actually kick broly to escape. also, strength and power are unrelated, so gohan being able to match broly physically is not a power feat.

then gohan does his lava run, where he is only matching broly's speed. this is despite the fact that gohan is one of the character's that is explicitly mentioned to be faster than normal, like burter, frieza, yakon, piccolo, and cell. so even with gohan's higher than normal speed, he can still only match broly's speed, he hardly outsped him. he never managed to put any distance between himself and broly.

then there is the fact that that little exchange burnt out gohan's reserves, since he immediately passed out afterwards, without even being able to get himself to safety.

and gohan didn't really do anything else until the beam battle, where it took 2 ssj2s and an mssj to slow down broly (not even stop him), and another mssj to to interrupt broly's attack.

so yeah, at no point did gohan do anything that even began to compare to broly's power.
Gohan was MSSJ in the beam struggle, so was Goku.

And physical strength should probably go to Broly, he's buff as Hell.

And when was Gohan stated to be faster than normal? Is this about Cell's little "Quick rodent!" comment? Because if so, I can say that about a 4 year old who's being more fast than I thought. Cell caught up instantly, it wasn't a case of Gohan being especially fast.

And Gohan knocks Broly away three times, imagine if Vegeta's kicks were doing the same thing to Cell
i just watched the fight (but not the beam struggle i was going off memory for that part, since youtube was lagging badly). gohan never actually kicked broly away. he moved him a little bit, but that's it. compare gohan's best kick against broly to broly's first punch against gohan, and then say the two have nearly equal power. broly dominated the entire fight.

as for strength, size has never meant anything in the DBZ universe. gohan trains, broly doesn't, therefore gohan is physically stronger than broly.

as for speed:

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P9.2, P11.3
Context: as Gohan and Kaioshin flee from Boo
Gohan: “It’s alright! I’m confident in my speed!”
*Boo quickly catches up to them*
Gohan: “…! Th-that can’t be…!”

gohan knows he's weaker than buu, but still expects to be faster. this is because some characters, gohan included, are just faster than their power level would suggest. gohan's only fault was that he was still underestimating buu, because buu's ki is stated to be "like a lie". it's difficult to get an accurate read on him.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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lazerbem
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lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:38 AM
lazerbem
Apr 27 2014, 03:18 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:14 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 02:32 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 01:58 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 26 2014, 09:52 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 04:58 PM
I know but that was after Gohan lost power from one of Bojack's minions remember? Prior to that, Super Bojack only had a minor lead against Gohan whereas Zangya held her own against a restrained MSSJ Gohan.

Cell's feats are much more impressive given all of that.
Umm Gohan never really held his own against Bojack. The best we see him do is deflect a blast, which wasn't a very impressive one looking Bojack's face. Honestly if Zangya is able to keep up with and deflect blasts from Gohan, it would seem Bojack is not even trying. Thus a conclusion of FP Bojack being stronger than Perfect Cell can be made. Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
using a multiplicative model of ssj transformations (ssj actually multiplies the power you have, instead of just adding some extra power), the initial ssj transformation in a battle has to restore most, if not all, of your ki. goku went from a pl that was essentially 0 (not only was he badly injured, but he was totally exhausted, on top of that) to 150,000,000 when he transformed against frieza. that would mean the transformation restored him to 3,000,000 base, and then multiplied his power by 50. it makes sense for ssj2 to do the same.

that's actually one of the reasons i use an additive model. ssj is actually a separate reserve of ki that just happened to be 50 times the size of base goku's full power in the fight against frieza. so instead of ssj being base x50, it's base +150,000,000 (for that one fight. later ssj transformations add more as the ki reserve is expanded through training). if that's the case, then all the power that gohan lost as an ssj would barely put a dent in his ssj2 power, because the ssj2 ki reserve is just so much bigger than base + ssj put together.
What does this have to do with anything?


Quote:
 
Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
with multiplicative ssj, transforming restores your ki.

lazerbem
Apr 27 2014, 02:34 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 02:27 AM
so gohan not transforming into a form that hadn't been discovered yet is your clue that gohan is weaker? as for the others, nobody except goku knew that gohan was the strongest one there, and goku was saving gohan for cell. also, goku is the only one with any experience handling other people's ki, so he can make better use of it.

there is also the fact that gohan can't be weaker, because he has to be strong enough to take on cell. if gohan is weaker than goku, then he is too weak to win against super perfect cell, even as an ssj2. but we know he won, because earth survived for movie 10 to be made.

also, your estimate of movie 10 broly is very weak. ssj broly > base m10 gohan >> mssj buu arc gohan => mssj goten and trunks. consider this even though base gohan is performing at a much higher level than his canon ssj counterpart possibly could, he still went straight to ssj2 just to combat ssj broly. even ssj gohan would not be enough to beat ssj broly, because broly is still that much more powerful than gohan.

also, lssj broly did not struggle against ssj2 gohan. you might want to rewatch the movie. gohan got thrashed, and was barely able to do anything at all.
Broly got kicked away 4 times, got his hold broken by brute strength, and outsped by Gohan

Another clue to this fact is that in Bio-Broly, Pikkon is expected to help against Broly. That would never happen if Broly was just so strong.

To make it clear, I don't believe in hax, so Base Gohan fighting Broly is, IMO, pure and utter nonsense. Even if you believe in hax, Gohan hardly did better, he didn't even land a single hit on Broly and Broly was clearly toying with him.

Then somehow, LSSJ Broly is getting outsped and knocked away by Gohan?


gohan wasn't haxed in M10. that's how powerful he would actually be if he had spent the 7 years training, like he would have done if he'd fought broly and cell back to back, convincing him that super powerful enemies can pop up out of nowhere. besides, it doesn't matter what you want to believe. what matter is what we are shown, which is gohan performing at an entirely different level than goten and trunks. since they couldn't have been nerfed by the shifting timeline (their power is natural, not from training, so there's no way to make them weaker) that means gohan has to be just as strong as he looks, whether you like it or not. that much is not up for debate. he outright states that he is stronger than he used to be, demonstrating exactly what the break from canon is, and then proves it by casually outperforming two fighters that are on par with his canon self, at least in the same form.

as to the ssj2 vs. lssj.

gohan punches broly, who powers through it and knocks gohan away with his own punch. clear advantage: broly

broly slams gohan into a rock, breaking through it. gohan escapes, and kicks broly, knocking his head to the side a little. broly grabs gohan by the arm, and puts him in a lock. gohan manages to get a little leverage, but has to actually kick broly to escape. also, strength and power are unrelated, so gohan being able to match broly physically is not a power feat.

then gohan does his lava run, where he is only matching broly's speed. this is despite the fact that gohan is one of the character's that is explicitly mentioned to be faster than normal, like burter, frieza, yakon, piccolo, and cell. so even with gohan's higher than normal speed, he can still only match broly's speed, he hardly outsped him. he never managed to put any distance between himself and broly.

then there is the fact that that little exchange burnt out gohan's reserves, since he immediately passed out afterwards, without even being able to get himself to safety.

and gohan didn't really do anything else until the beam battle, where it took 2 ssj2s and an mssj to slow down broly (not even stop him), and another mssj to to interrupt broly's attack.

so yeah, at no point did gohan do anything that even began to compare to broly's power.
Gohan was MSSJ in the beam struggle, so was Goku.

And physical strength should probably go to Broly, he's buff as Hell.

And when was Gohan stated to be faster than normal? Is this about Cell's little "Quick rodent!" comment? Because if so, I can say that about a 4 year old who's being more fast than I thought. Cell caught up instantly, it wasn't a case of Gohan being especially fast.

And Gohan knocks Broly away three times, imagine if Vegeta's kicks were doing the same thing to Cell
i just watched the fight (but not the beam struggle i was going off memory for that part, since youtube was lagging badly). gohan never actually kicked broly away. he moved him a little bit, but that's it. compare gohan's best kick against broly to broly's first punch against gohan, and then say the two have nearly equal power. broly dominated the entire fight.

as for strength, size has never meant anything in the DBZ universe. gohan trains, broly doesn't, therefore gohan is physically stronger than broly.

as for speed:

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P9.2, P11.3
Context: as Gohan and Kaioshin flee from Boo
Gohan: “It’s alright! I’m confident in my speed!”
*Boo quickly catches up to them*
Gohan: “…! Th-that can’t be…!”

gohan knows he's weaker than buu, but still expects to be faster. this is because some characters, gohan included, are just faster than their power level would suggest. gohan's only fault was that he was still underestimating buu, because buu's ki is stated to be "like a lie". it's difficult to get an accurate read on him.
Being faster than your power level would suggest doesn't really mean much. We saw how Goku utterly trashed Burter. By your logic, even assuming Gohan has a Burter esque speed, Broly should have still caught him very quickly.

And Broly was still getting staggered back several feet. Remember when Vegeta kicked Cell? That's what should have happened
Posted Image
Posted Image

I couldn't get some good shots for the knee to the face, but Broly doesn't look happy about it, he looks more pissed off than anything

And in Movie 11, before Goku's SSJ3 was revealed, Goku's reaction to hearing about Broly in Hell was "meh"
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lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:31 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 03:17 AM
Why? It's 50 times your current power level. Why would it replenish one's Ki, and if that was the case, why wouldn't they just revert and transform again when they're running low?
i explained it in the post you quoted. goku had no power left when he first transformed against frieza, but afterwards he went straight to full. if you use a multiplicative model, then transforming restores your ki. simple as that. as for why they don't do it, they never really have a chance. the only time it would be beneficial is goku at the cell games, but as soon as he realized he needed to get back in the fight, he got jumped by a cell kid, and it would have been suicide to revert to base.

but like i said, that is one of the reasons i don't use a multiplicative model. ssj doesn't restore the ki you've already used, it is just a separate reserve of ki that gets added on to whatever you have left.

base goku 3,000,000
exhausted base goku 0
ssj goku 150,000,000
FP ssj goku 153,000,000

ssj doesn't multiply anything, it just adds a really big number that at that time happened to be 50x goku's base power.
I just assume transforming the first time replenishes your energy. Like I said, we never see someone revert and transform to regain their energy. That aside, I don't do fan theories when we are told straight up it's 50 times base.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Apr 27 2014, 01:26 PM.
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Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 05:55 PM
Super Saiyan
Apr 26 2014, 05:49 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 06:09 AM
M10 SSJ Broly was on par with his M8 LSSJ self and I have that Broly trouncing anyone in Bojack's gang including himself so it's a stomp in Broly's favor.
Out of curiosity how powerful is your M8 LSSJ Broly?
On par with FP Perfect Cell. I have...

MSSJ CG Goku: 9,000,000,000
MSSJ CG Gohan: 18,000,000,000
Super Bojack: 20,000,000,000
M8 LSSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
M10 SSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
Ok, if you have M10 LSSJ Broly = FP Perfect Cell, then how do you have his LSSJ < SSJ 2 Goku? That makes no sense to me. The LSSJ multiplier shouldn't change.
Edited by SSJ, Apr 27 2014, 04:03 PM.
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Super Saiyan
Apr 27 2014, 01:56 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 05:55 PM
Super Saiyan
Apr 26 2014, 05:49 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 06:09 AM
M10 SSJ Broly was on par with his M8 LSSJ self and I have that Broly trouncing anyone in Bojack's gang including himself so it's a stomp in Broly's favor.
Out of curiosity how powerful is your M8 LSSJ Broly?
On par with FP Perfect Cell. I have...

MSSJ CG Goku: 9,000,000,000
MSSJ CG Gohan: 18,000,000,000
Super Bojack: 20,000,000,000
M8 LSSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
M10 SSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
Ok, if you have M10 LSSJ Broly = FP Percect Cell, then how do you have his LSSJ < SSJ 2 Goku? That makes no sense to me. The LSSJ multiplier shouldn't change.
Because I have the LSSJ multiplier being the same as the intial USSJ multiplier. I have...

CG Goku: 1,800,000,000
MSSJ: 9,000,000,000

CG Gohan: 3,600,000,000
MSSJ: 18,000,000,000
SSJ2 (Without Rage): 36,000,000,000
SSJ2 (With Rage): 52,000,000,000

FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
SPC: 50,000,000,000

M8 Broly: 3,000,000,000
RSSJ: 9,900,000,000
SSJ: 15,000,000,000
LSSJ: 25,500,000,000
LSSJ (Limits Reached): 30,000,000,000

M10 Broly: 6,000,000,000
SSJ: 30,000,000,000
LSSJ: 51,000,000,000

M10 Gohan: 4,000,000,000
MSSJ: 20,000,000,000
SSJ2: 40,000,000,000

Buu Saga Goku: 5,500,000,000
MSSJ: 27,500,000,000
SSJ2: 55,000,000,000
SSJ3: 220,000,000,000

So the final chain for me would look like...

SSJ2 Goku (Buu Arc) > SSJ2 CG Gohan (With Rage) ~ M10 LSSJ Broly ~ SPC >> M10 SSJ2 Gohan >> M10 SSJ Broly = M8 LSSJ Broly = FP Perfect Cell > MSSJ Goku (Buu Arc)
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 01:25 PM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:31 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 03:17 AM
Why? It's 50 times your current power level. Why would it replenish one's Ki, and if that was the case, why wouldn't they just revert and transform again when they're running low?
i explained it in the post you quoted. goku had no power left when he first transformed against frieza, but afterwards he went straight to full. if you use a multiplicative model, then transforming restores your ki. simple as that. as for why they don't do it, they never really have a chance. the only time it would be beneficial is goku at the cell games, but as soon as he realized he needed to get back in the fight, he got jumped by a cell kid, and it would have been suicide to revert to base.

but like i said, that is one of the reasons i don't use a multiplicative model. ssj doesn't restore the ki you've already used, it is just a separate reserve of ki that gets added on to whatever you have left.

base goku 3,000,000
exhausted base goku 0
ssj goku 150,000,000
FP ssj goku 153,000,000

ssj doesn't multiply anything, it just adds a really big number that at that time happened to be 50x goku's base power.
I just assume transforming the first time replenishes your energy. Like I said, we never see someone revert and transform to regain their energy. That aside, I don't do fan theories when we are told straight up it's 50 times base.
actually, it's never said in the manga that it's 50 times base. it is definitely shown in the buu arc that it can't be 50 times base. as in, numbers are actually given, and they don't add up with a 50x increase. now, considering how powerful the saiyans are at that point, a 150,000,000 increase would work fine with those stated numbers, but the 150,000,000 increase would be nearly insignificant as a power up (we're talking less than a 2x increase, at best). and another part of the buu arc strongly implies a 3-4x ssj boost for goku.

so yeah, 50x multiplication is a fan theory just as much as any other ssj theory. AT did not come up with any of the multipliers used in the series except oozaru and kaioken. in fact, in an interview, he said he thought 50x was excessive, and wrote the goku vs. frieza scene with a 10x boost in mind. but, of course, a 10x boost doesn't work because frieza's full power is more than 20x goku's base power. and before you try to correct me on that number, it is actually possible for frieza to be less than 40x as powerful as base goku, since goku was definitely not at full power when he used the kkx20 against 50% frieza. but that's a separate topic, for another time. for this topic, we might as well use the official levels, which work just fine.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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SSJ
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Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 27 2014, 03:34 PM
Super Saiyan
Apr 27 2014, 01:56 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 05:55 PM
Super Saiyan
Apr 26 2014, 05:49 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 06:09 AM
M10 SSJ Broly was on par with his M8 LSSJ self and I have that Broly trouncing anyone in Bojack's gang including himself so it's a stomp in Broly's favor.
Out of curiosity how powerful is your M8 LSSJ Broly?
On par with FP Perfect Cell. I have...

MSSJ CG Goku: 9,000,000,000
MSSJ CG Gohan: 18,000,000,000
Super Bojack: 20,000,000,000
M8 LSSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
M10 SSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
Ok, if you have M10 LSSJ Broly = FP Percect Cell, then how do you have his LSSJ < SSJ 2 Goku? That makes no sense to me. The LSSJ multiplier shouldn't change.
Because I have the LSSJ multiplier being the same as the intial USSJ multiplier. I have...

CG Goku: 1,800,000,000
MSSJ: 9,000,000,000

CG Gohan: 3,600,000,000
MSSJ: 18,000,000,000
SSJ2 (Without Rage): 36,000,000,000
SSJ2 (With Rage): 52,000,000,000

FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
SPC: 50,000,000,000

M8 Broly: 3,000,000,000
RSSJ: 9,900,000,000
SSJ: 15,000,000,000
LSSJ: 25,500,000,000
LSSJ (Limits Reached): 30,000,000,000

M10 Broly: 6,000,000,000
SSJ: 30,000,000,000
LSSJ: 51,000,000,000

M10 Gohan: 4,000,000,000
MSSJ: 20,000,000,000
SSJ2: 40,000,000,000

Buu Saga Goku: 5,500,000,000
MSSJ: 27,500,000,000
SSJ2: 55,000,000,000
SSJ3: 220,000,000,000

So the final chain for me would look like...

SSJ2 Goku (Buu Arc) > SSJ2 CG Gohan (With Rage) ~ M10 LSSJ Broly ~ SPC >> M10 SSJ2 Gohan >> M10 SSJ Broly = M8 LSSJ Broly = FP Perfect Cell > MSSJ Goku (Buu Arc)
Goku was implied to be barely ahead of Cell Games Gohan, so why do you have him so strong? ...
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Apr 27 2014, 04:01 PM
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Apr 27 2014, 03:34 PM
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M10 SSJ Broly was on par with his M8 LSSJ self and I have that Broly trouncing anyone in Bojack's gang including himself so it's a stomp in Broly's favor.
Out of curiosity how powerful is your M8 LSSJ Broly?
On par with FP Perfect Cell. I have...

MSSJ CG Goku: 9,000,000,000
MSSJ CG Gohan: 18,000,000,000
Super Bojack: 20,000,000,000
M8 LSSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
M10 SSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
Ok, if you have M10 LSSJ Broly = FP Percect Cell, then how do you have his LSSJ < SSJ 2 Goku? That makes no sense to me. The LSSJ multiplier shouldn't change.
Because I have the LSSJ multiplier being the same as the intial USSJ multiplier. I have...

CG Goku: 1,800,000,000
MSSJ: 9,000,000,000

CG Gohan: 3,600,000,000
MSSJ: 18,000,000,000
SSJ2 (Without Rage): 36,000,000,000
SSJ2 (With Rage): 52,000,000,000

FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
SPC: 50,000,000,000

M8 Broly: 3,000,000,000
RSSJ: 9,900,000,000
SSJ: 15,000,000,000
LSSJ: 25,500,000,000
LSSJ (Limits Reached): 30,000,000,000

M10 Broly: 6,000,000,000
SSJ: 30,000,000,000
LSSJ: 51,000,000,000

M10 Gohan: 4,000,000,000
MSSJ: 20,000,000,000
SSJ2: 40,000,000,000

Buu Saga Goku: 5,500,000,000
MSSJ: 27,500,000,000
SSJ2: 55,000,000,000
SSJ3: 220,000,000,000

So the final chain for me would look like...

SSJ2 Goku (Buu Arc) > SSJ2 CG Gohan (With Rage) ~ M10 LSSJ Broly ~ SPC >> M10 SSJ2 Gohan >> M10 SSJ Broly = M8 LSSJ Broly = FP Perfect Cell > MSSJ Goku (Buu Arc)
Goku was implied to be barely ahead of Cell Games Gohan, so why do you have him so strong? ...
Because i'm in the belief that SSJ2 CG Gohan got most of his power the through anger so I have...

SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Gohan (With Anger) >> SSJ2 Gohan (Without Anger)

That's also why I have Pre-Majin Vegeta ahead of CG Gohan though not hs enraged SSJ2 form.
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This form has power that surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form through his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it through harsh training.

It seems to me that the rage is just the initiator of the transformation. The wasn't really any implication of a rage boost in the Cell arc, it was just the rage that allowed him to transform. It's the same in the Boo arc. Goku tells Gohan to access his rage so that he can transform. Gohan then says that he can't get angry enough, and he wasn't able to transform against Boo.
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Apr 27 2014, 04:01 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 27 2014, 03:34 PM
Super Saiyan
Apr 27 2014, 01:56 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 05:55 PM
Super Saiyan
Apr 26 2014, 05:49 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 06:09 AM
M10 SSJ Broly was on par with his M8 LSSJ self and I have that Broly trouncing anyone in Bojack's gang including himself so it's a stomp in Broly's favor.
Out of curiosity how powerful is your M8 LSSJ Broly?
On par with FP Perfect Cell. I have...

MSSJ CG Goku: 9,000,000,000
MSSJ CG Gohan: 18,000,000,000
Super Bojack: 20,000,000,000
M8 LSSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
M10 SSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
Ok, if you have M10 LSSJ Broly = FP Percect Cell, then how do you have his LSSJ < SSJ 2 Goku? That makes no sense to me. The LSSJ multiplier shouldn't change.
Because I have the LSSJ multiplier being the same as the intial USSJ multiplier. I have...

CG Goku: 1,800,000,000
MSSJ: 9,000,000,000

CG Gohan: 3,600,000,000
MSSJ: 18,000,000,000
SSJ2 (Without Rage): 36,000,000,000
SSJ2 (With Rage): 52,000,000,000

FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
SPC: 50,000,000,000

M8 Broly: 3,000,000,000
RSSJ: 9,900,000,000
SSJ: 15,000,000,000
LSSJ: 25,500,000,000
LSSJ (Limits Reached): 30,000,000,000

M10 Broly: 6,000,000,000
SSJ: 30,000,000,000
LSSJ: 51,000,000,000

M10 Gohan: 4,000,000,000
MSSJ: 20,000,000,000
SSJ2: 40,000,000,000

Buu Saga Goku: 5,500,000,000
MSSJ: 27,500,000,000
SSJ2: 55,000,000,000
SSJ3: 220,000,000,000

So the final chain for me would look like...

SSJ2 Goku (Buu Arc) > SSJ2 CG Gohan (With Rage) ~ M10 LSSJ Broly ~ SPC >> M10 SSJ2 Gohan >> M10 SSJ Broly = M8 LSSJ Broly = FP Perfect Cell > MSSJ Goku (Buu Arc)
Goku was implied to be barely ahead of Cell Games Gohan, so why do you have him so strong? ...
that implication isn't actually there. that's merely a popular interpretation of piccolo's vagueness. but piccolo is always vague when dealing with people more powerful than himself. he won't give a definite answer unless the gap is massive. so just because piccolo isn't sure that vegeta is stronger than gohan doesn't mean vegeta is only barely stronger than gohan. it just means vegeta isn't multiple times as powerful as gohan.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:55 PM
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Apr 27 2014, 01:25 PM
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Apr 27 2014, 03:31 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 03:17 AM
Why? It's 50 times your current power level. Why would it replenish one's Ki, and if that was the case, why wouldn't they just revert and transform again when they're running low?
i explained it in the post you quoted. goku had no power left when he first transformed against frieza, but afterwards he went straight to full. if you use a multiplicative model, then transforming restores your ki. simple as that. as for why they don't do it, they never really have a chance. the only time it would be beneficial is goku at the cell games, but as soon as he realized he needed to get back in the fight, he got jumped by a cell kid, and it would have been suicide to revert to base.

but like i said, that is one of the reasons i don't use a multiplicative model. ssj doesn't restore the ki you've already used, it is just a separate reserve of ki that gets added on to whatever you have left.

base goku 3,000,000
exhausted base goku 0
ssj goku 150,000,000
FP ssj goku 153,000,000

ssj doesn't multiply anything, it just adds a really big number that at that time happened to be 50x goku's base power.
I just assume transforming the first time replenishes your energy. Like I said, we never see someone revert and transform to regain their energy. That aside, I don't do fan theories when we are told straight up it's 50 times base.
actually, it's never said in the manga that it's 50 times base.
The SEG says it is, and I'll take that over a fans opinion any day.
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I'd say Broly would be well above SSJ2 Gohan by that time. He was RSSJ, and he was already pretty much unstoppable compared to ASSJ Vegeta. His full SSJ form should be a good deal stronger. Broly got a zenkai, so that'd make him more powerful. I think he should be capable of defeating them. If not, then it would at least be pretty difficult for Bojack's gang to pull off.
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Apr 27 2014, 11:30 PM
I'd say Broly would be well above SSJ2 Gohan by that time. He was RSSJ, and he was already pretty much unstoppable compared to ASSJ Vegeta. His full SSJ form should be a good deal stronger. Broly got a zenkai, so that'd make him more powerful. I think he should be capable of defeating them. If not, then it would at least be pretty difficult for Bojack's gang to pull off.
Vegeta was a SSJ when he couldn't hurt RSSJ Broly. We don't see SSJG2 Vegeta until he decides to jump into the fray against LSSJ Broly. Also, if I may ask, why is Broly stronger than SSJ2 Kid Gohan? LSSJ Broly has been hurt by SSJ2 Adolescent Gohan. He shouldn't be too much stronger than him.
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Apr 27 2014, 05:00 PM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:55 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 01:25 PM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:31 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 03:17 AM
Why? It's 50 times your current power level. Why would it replenish one's Ki, and if that was the case, why wouldn't they just revert and transform again when they're running low?
i explained it in the post you quoted. goku had no power left when he first transformed against frieza, but afterwards he went straight to full. if you use a multiplicative model, then transforming restores your ki. simple as that. as for why they don't do it, they never really have a chance. the only time it would be beneficial is goku at the cell games, but as soon as he realized he needed to get back in the fight, he got jumped by a cell kid, and it would have been suicide to revert to base.

but like i said, that is one of the reasons i don't use a multiplicative model. ssj doesn't restore the ki you've already used, it is just a separate reserve of ki that gets added on to whatever you have left.

base goku 3,000,000
exhausted base goku 0
ssj goku 150,000,000
FP ssj goku 153,000,000

ssj doesn't multiply anything, it just adds a really big number that at that time happened to be 50x goku's base power.
I just assume transforming the first time replenishes your energy. Like I said, we never see someone revert and transform to regain their energy. That aside, I don't do fan theories when we are told straight up it's 50 times base.
actually, it's never said in the manga that it's 50 times base.
The SEG says it is, and I'll take that over a fans opinion any day.
The SEG is just fan opinion. no one who worked on the SEG was actually part of making the manga. they have no greater basis for their numbers than any other fan. hell, even AT himself said he never envisioned it to be a 50x increase. are you saying you're taking the words of some loser in a cubicle over AT himself? AT's memory may not be perfect, and there is such a thing as death of the author, but when he comes out and explicitly says "that's too big", that means that no source that uses that number carries any official weight.

so what you are saying is that because they got paid to right their theories down, their theories somehow are made correct despite contradicting the manga and being shot down by the creator. this isn't a matter of opinion. ssj just flat out is not 50x base, and anyone who says it is is demonstrably wrong.

edit: movie 10 lssj broly was fighting a stronger gohan, as stated in the movie. movie 10 gohan > kid gohan > canon teen gohan.
Edited by lunar2, Apr 28 2014, 12:36 AM.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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