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Bojack's gang vs SSJ Broly (Movie 10)
Topic Started: Apr 26 2014, 04:35 AM (3,058 Views)
lazerbem
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Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 05:12 PM
Gohan wasn't even putting much effort into that blast. Otherwise, the blast would have killed him on the spot.
More effort than against Cell, at least he actually used his hands right
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Yeah but the blast itself was quickly charged and it would seem Gohan was only toying with Bojack during that beam stuggle just to land that punch on him.

Besides, we all know that Ki Attacks > Physical Attacks so for Bojack to hold his own againat Gohan's KHH but not being able to withstand a punch from him obviously means Gohan wasn't trying.
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Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 05:35 PM
Yeah but the blast itself was quickly charged and it would seem Gohan was only toying with Bojack during that beam stuggle just to land that punch on him.

Besides, we all know that Ki Attacks > Physical Attacks so for Bojack to hold his own againat Gohan's KHH but not being able to withstand a punch from him obviously means Gohan wasn't trying.
Either that or Bojack powered up in seconds or his attack has ludicrous amp
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I suppose you can argue his attack was heavily amped whereas Gohan's was hardly amped.
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Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 06:09 AM
M10 SSJ Broly was on par with his M8 LSSJ self and I have that Broly trouncing anyone in Bojack's gang including himself so it's a stomp in Broly's favor.
Out of curiosity how powerful is your M8 LSSJ Broly?
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Super Saiyan
Apr 26 2014, 05:49 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 06:09 AM
M10 SSJ Broly was on par with his M8 LSSJ self and I have that Broly trouncing anyone in Bojack's gang including himself so it's a stomp in Broly's favor.
Out of curiosity how powerful is your M8 LSSJ Broly?
On par with FP Perfect Cell. I have...

MSSJ CG Goku: 9,000,000,000
MSSJ CG Gohan: 18,000,000,000
Super Bojack: 20,000,000,000
M8 LSSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
M10 SSJ Broly: 30,000,000,000
FP Perfect Cell: 30,000,000,000
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Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 04:58 PM
I know but that was after Gohan lost power from one of Bojack's minions remember? Prior to that, Super Bojack only had a minor lead against Gohan whereas Zangya held her own against a restrained MSSJ Gohan.

Cell's feats are much more impressive given all of that.
Umm Gohan never really held his own against Bojack. The best we see him do is deflect a blast, which wasn't a very impressive one looking Bojack's face. Honestly if Zangya is able to keep up with and deflect blasts from Gohan, it would seem Bojack is not even trying. Thus a conclusion of FP Bojack being stronger than Perfect Cell can be made. Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 26 2014, 09:52 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 04:58 PM
I know but that was after Gohan lost power from one of Bojack's minions remember? Prior to that, Super Bojack only had a minor lead against Gohan whereas Zangya held her own against a restrained MSSJ Gohan.

Cell's feats are much more impressive given all of that.
Umm Gohan never really held his own against Bojack. The best we see him do is deflect a blast, which wasn't a very impressive one looking Bojack's face. Honestly if Zangya is able to keep up with and deflect blasts from Gohan, it would seem Bojack is not even trying. Thus a conclusion of FP Bojack being stronger than Perfect Cell can be made. Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
using a multiplicative model of ssj transformations (ssj actually multiplies the power you have, instead of just adding some extra power), the initial ssj transformation in a battle has to restore most, if not all, of your ki. goku went from a pl that was essentially 0 (not only was he badly injured, but he was totally exhausted, on top of that) to 150,000,000 when he transformed against frieza. that would mean the transformation restored him to 3,000,000 base, and then multiplied his power by 50. it makes sense for ssj2 to do the same.

that's actually one of the reasons i use an additive model. ssj is actually a separate reserve of ki that just happened to be 50 times the size of base goku's full power in the fight against frieza. so instead of ssj being base x50, it's base +150,000,000 (for that one fight. later ssj transformations add more as the ki reserve is expanded through training). if that's the case, then all the power that gohan lost as an ssj would barely put a dent in his ssj2 power, because the ssj2 ki reserve is just so much bigger than base + ssj put together.

@Lazerbem. there is no evidence that movie 8 gohan is weaker than cell games gohan. there is significant evidence that he is not weaker, one of the main points being that the cell games happened in the broly trilogy timeline, gohan transformed to ssj2 and killed super perfect cell. gohan only appears weak against broly because broly was so much more powerful than everyone that their apparent ability is determined solely by the interest he takes in them. gohan was a kid, so broly didn't care about him. because broly didn't care, he just knocked him around, instead of toying with him like the adults. you have to remember that broly was fully capable of killing each and every one of them in a single blow.

also, the two sentences are one thought. broly is still a monster, even though i'm stronger. the first sentence is confirmed as a power statement by the nature of the second sentence. you have to take statements in context.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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lazerbem
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lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 01:58 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 26 2014, 09:52 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 04:58 PM
I know but that was after Gohan lost power from one of Bojack's minions remember? Prior to that, Super Bojack only had a minor lead against Gohan whereas Zangya held her own against a restrained MSSJ Gohan.

Cell's feats are much more impressive given all of that.
Umm Gohan never really held his own against Bojack. The best we see him do is deflect a blast, which wasn't a very impressive one looking Bojack's face. Honestly if Zangya is able to keep up with and deflect blasts from Gohan, it would seem Bojack is not even trying. Thus a conclusion of FP Bojack being stronger than Perfect Cell can be made. Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
using a multiplicative model of ssj transformations (ssj actually multiplies the power you have, instead of just adding some extra power), the initial ssj transformation in a battle has to restore most, if not all, of your ki. goku went from a pl that was essentially 0 (not only was he badly injured, but he was totally exhausted, on top of that) to 150,000,000 when he transformed against frieza. that would mean the transformation restored him to 3,000,000 base, and then multiplied his power by 50. it makes sense for ssj2 to do the same.

that's actually one of the reasons i use an additive model. ssj is actually a separate reserve of ki that just happened to be 50 times the size of base goku's full power in the fight against frieza. so instead of ssj being base x50, it's base +150,000,000 (for that one fight. later ssj transformations add more as the ki reserve is expanded through training). if that's the case, then all the power that gohan lost as an ssj would barely put a dent in his ssj2 power, because the ssj2 ki reserve is just so much bigger than base + ssj put together.

@Lazerbem. there is no evidence that movie 8 gohan is weaker than cell games gohan. there is significant evidence that he is not weaker, one of the main points being that the cell games happened in the broly trilogy timeline, gohan transformed to ssj2 and killed super perfect cell. gohan only appears weak against broly because broly was so much more powerful than everyone that their apparent ability is determined solely by the interest he takes in them. gohan was a kid, so broly didn't care about him. because broly didn't care, he just knocked him around, instead of toying with him like the adults. you have to remember that broly was fully capable of killing each and every one of them in a single blow.

also, the two sentences are one thought. broly is still a monster, even though i'm stronger. the first sentence is confirmed as a power statement by the nature of the second sentence. you have to take statements in context.
The fact that power was donated to Goku, Goku told Gohan to get out of there, and that Gohan somehow doesn't go SSJ2 highly suggests to me he's the weakest on there. I mean, when Vegeta's energy means more than yours, yeah.

Personally, I find Movie 10 SSJ Broly to be in the realm of MSSJ Gohan(Cell Games). At the most, I can squeeze him up to Base Bojack level or something like that. I just don't see him going any higher than that, not when his LSSJ form is having problems against Gohan
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so gohan not transforming into a form that hadn't been discovered yet is your clue that gohan is weaker? as for the others, nobody except goku knew that gohan was the strongest one there, and goku was saving gohan for cell. also, goku is the only one with any experience handling other people's ki, so he can make better use of it.

there is also the fact that gohan can't be weaker, because he has to be strong enough to take on cell. if gohan is weaker than goku, then he is too weak to win against super perfect cell, even as an ssj2. but we know he won, because earth survived for movie 10 to be made.

also, your estimate of movie 10 broly is very weak. ssj broly > base m10 gohan >> mssj buu arc gohan => mssj goten and trunks. consider this even though base gohan is performing at a much higher level than his canon ssj counterpart possibly could, he still went straight to ssj2 just to combat ssj broly. even ssj gohan would not be enough to beat ssj broly, because broly is still that much more powerful than gohan.

also, lssj broly did not struggle against ssj2 gohan. you might want to rewatch the movie. gohan got thrashed, and was barely able to do anything at all.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 01:58 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 26 2014, 09:52 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 04:58 PM
I know but that was after Gohan lost power from one of Bojack's minions remember? Prior to that, Super Bojack only had a minor lead against Gohan whereas Zangya held her own against a restrained MSSJ Gohan.

Cell's feats are much more impressive given all of that.
Umm Gohan never really held his own against Bojack. The best we see him do is deflect a blast, which wasn't a very impressive one looking Bojack's face. Honestly if Zangya is able to keep up with and deflect blasts from Gohan, it would seem Bojack is not even trying. Thus a conclusion of FP Bojack being stronger than Perfect Cell can be made. Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
using a multiplicative model of ssj transformations (ssj actually multiplies the power you have, instead of just adding some extra power), the initial ssj transformation in a battle has to restore most, if not all, of your ki. goku went from a pl that was essentially 0 (not only was he badly injured, but he was totally exhausted, on top of that) to 150,000,000 when he transformed against frieza. that would mean the transformation restored him to 3,000,000 base, and then multiplied his power by 50. it makes sense for ssj2 to do the same.

that's actually one of the reasons i use an additive model. ssj is actually a separate reserve of ki that just happened to be 50 times the size of base goku's full power in the fight against frieza. so instead of ssj being base x50, it's base +150,000,000 (for that one fight. later ssj transformations add more as the ki reserve is expanded through training). if that's the case, then all the power that gohan lost as an ssj would barely put a dent in his ssj2 power, because the ssj2 ki reserve is just so much bigger than base + ssj put together.
What does this have to do with anything?
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lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 02:27 AM
so gohan not transforming into a form that hadn't been discovered yet is your clue that gohan is weaker? as for the others, nobody except goku knew that gohan was the strongest one there, and goku was saving gohan for cell. also, goku is the only one with any experience handling other people's ki, so he can make better use of it.

there is also the fact that gohan can't be weaker, because he has to be strong enough to take on cell. if gohan is weaker than goku, then he is too weak to win against super perfect cell, even as an ssj2. but we know he won, because earth survived for movie 10 to be made.

also, your estimate of movie 10 broly is very weak. ssj broly > base m10 gohan >> mssj buu arc gohan => mssj goten and trunks. consider this even though base gohan is performing at a much higher level than his canon ssj counterpart possibly could, he still went straight to ssj2 just to combat ssj broly. even ssj gohan would not be enough to beat ssj broly, because broly is still that much more powerful than gohan.

also, lssj broly did not struggle against ssj2 gohan. you might want to rewatch the movie. gohan got thrashed, and was barely able to do anything at all.
Broly got kicked away 4 times, got his hold broken by brute strength, and outsped by Gohan

Another clue to this fact is that in Bio-Broly, Pikkon is expected to help against Broly. That would never happen if Broly was just so strong.

To make it clear, I don't believe in hax, so Base Gohan fighting Broly is, IMO, pure and utter nonsense. Even if you believe in hax, Gohan hardly did better, he didn't even land a single hit on Broly and Broly was clearly toying with him.

Then somehow, LSSJ Broly is getting outsped and knocked away by Gohan?
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 02:32 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 01:58 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 26 2014, 09:52 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 04:58 PM
I know but that was after Gohan lost power from one of Bojack's minions remember? Prior to that, Super Bojack only had a minor lead against Gohan whereas Zangya held her own against a restrained MSSJ Gohan.

Cell's feats are much more impressive given all of that.
Umm Gohan never really held his own against Bojack. The best we see him do is deflect a blast, which wasn't a very impressive one looking Bojack's face. Honestly if Zangya is able to keep up with and deflect blasts from Gohan, it would seem Bojack is not even trying. Thus a conclusion of FP Bojack being stronger than Perfect Cell can be made. Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
using a multiplicative model of ssj transformations (ssj actually multiplies the power you have, instead of just adding some extra power), the initial ssj transformation in a battle has to restore most, if not all, of your ki. goku went from a pl that was essentially 0 (not only was he badly injured, but he was totally exhausted, on top of that) to 150,000,000 when he transformed against frieza. that would mean the transformation restored him to 3,000,000 base, and then multiplied his power by 50. it makes sense for ssj2 to do the same.

that's actually one of the reasons i use an additive model. ssj is actually a separate reserve of ki that just happened to be 50 times the size of base goku's full power in the fight against frieza. so instead of ssj being base x50, it's base +150,000,000 (for that one fight. later ssj transformations add more as the ki reserve is expanded through training). if that's the case, then all the power that gohan lost as an ssj would barely put a dent in his ssj2 power, because the ssj2 ki reserve is just so much bigger than base + ssj put together.
What does this have to do with anything?


Quote:
 
Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
with multiplicative ssj, transforming restores your ki.

lazerbem
Apr 27 2014, 02:34 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 02:27 AM
so gohan not transforming into a form that hadn't been discovered yet is your clue that gohan is weaker? as for the others, nobody except goku knew that gohan was the strongest one there, and goku was saving gohan for cell. also, goku is the only one with any experience handling other people's ki, so he can make better use of it.

there is also the fact that gohan can't be weaker, because he has to be strong enough to take on cell. if gohan is weaker than goku, then he is too weak to win against super perfect cell, even as an ssj2. but we know he won, because earth survived for movie 10 to be made.

also, your estimate of movie 10 broly is very weak. ssj broly > base m10 gohan >> mssj buu arc gohan => mssj goten and trunks. consider this even though base gohan is performing at a much higher level than his canon ssj counterpart possibly could, he still went straight to ssj2 just to combat ssj broly. even ssj gohan would not be enough to beat ssj broly, because broly is still that much more powerful than gohan.

also, lssj broly did not struggle against ssj2 gohan. you might want to rewatch the movie. gohan got thrashed, and was barely able to do anything at all.
Broly got kicked away 4 times, got his hold broken by brute strength, and outsped by Gohan

Another clue to this fact is that in Bio-Broly, Pikkon is expected to help against Broly. That would never happen if Broly was just so strong.

To make it clear, I don't believe in hax, so Base Gohan fighting Broly is, IMO, pure and utter nonsense. Even if you believe in hax, Gohan hardly did better, he didn't even land a single hit on Broly and Broly was clearly toying with him.

Then somehow, LSSJ Broly is getting outsped and knocked away by Gohan?


gohan wasn't haxed in M10. that's how powerful he would actually be if he had spent the 7 years training, like he would have done if he'd fought broly and cell back to back, convincing him that super powerful enemies can pop up out of nowhere. besides, it doesn't matter what you want to believe. what matter is what we are shown, which is gohan performing at an entirely different level than goten and trunks. since they couldn't have been nerfed by the shifting timeline (their power is natural, not from training, so there's no way to make them weaker) that means gohan has to be just as strong as he looks, whether you like it or not. that much is not up for debate. he outright states that he is stronger than he used to be, demonstrating exactly what the break from canon is, and then proves it by casually outperforming two fighters that are on par with his canon self, at least in the same form.

as to the ssj2 vs. lssj.

gohan punches broly, who powers through it and knocks gohan away with his own punch. clear advantage: broly

broly slams gohan into a rock, breaking through it. gohan escapes, and kicks broly, knocking his head to the side a little. broly grabs gohan by the arm, and puts him in a lock. gohan manages to get a little leverage, but has to actually kick broly to escape. also, strength and power are unrelated, so gohan being able to match broly physically is not a power feat.

then gohan does his lava run, where he is only matching broly's speed. this is despite the fact that gohan is one of the character's that is explicitly mentioned to be faster than normal, like burter, frieza, yakon, piccolo, and cell. so even with gohan's higher than normal speed, he can still only match broly's speed, he hardly outsped him. he never managed to put any distance between himself and broly.

then there is the fact that that little exchange burnt out gohan's reserves, since he immediately passed out afterwards, without even being able to get himself to safety.

and gohan didn't really do anything else until the beam battle, where it took 2 ssj2s and an mssj to slow down broly (not even stop him), and another mssj to to interrupt broly's attack.

so yeah, at no point did gohan do anything that even began to compare to broly's power.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Why? It's 50 times your current power level. Why would it replenish one's Ki, and if that was the case, why wouldn't they just revert and transform again when they're running low?
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lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 03:14 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 27 2014, 02:32 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 01:58 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Apr 26 2014, 09:52 PM
Yusuke Urameshi
Apr 26 2014, 04:58 PM
I know but that was after Gohan lost power from one of Bojack's minions remember? Prior to that, Super Bojack only had a minor lead against Gohan whereas Zangya held her own against a restrained MSSJ Gohan.

Cell's feats are much more impressive given all of that.
Umm Gohan never really held his own against Bojack. The best we see him do is deflect a blast, which wasn't a very impressive one looking Bojack's face. Honestly if Zangya is able to keep up with and deflect blasts from Gohan, it would seem Bojack is not even trying. Thus a conclusion of FP Bojack being stronger than Perfect Cell can be made. Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
using a multiplicative model of ssj transformations (ssj actually multiplies the power you have, instead of just adding some extra power), the initial ssj transformation in a battle has to restore most, if not all, of your ki. goku went from a pl that was essentially 0 (not only was he badly injured, but he was totally exhausted, on top of that) to 150,000,000 when he transformed against frieza. that would mean the transformation restored him to 3,000,000 base, and then multiplied his power by 50. it makes sense for ssj2 to do the same.

that's actually one of the reasons i use an additive model. ssj is actually a separate reserve of ki that just happened to be 50 times the size of base goku's full power in the fight against frieza. so instead of ssj being base x50, it's base +150,000,000 (for that one fight. later ssj transformations add more as the ki reserve is expanded through training). if that's the case, then all the power that gohan lost as an ssj would barely put a dent in his ssj2 power, because the ssj2 ki reserve is just so much bigger than base + ssj put together.
What does this have to do with anything?


Quote:
 
Also, a quick side note, why would Gohan suddenly be good as new when he's fighting Bojack? He didn't exactly eat a senzu.
with multiplicative ssj, transforming restores your ki.

lazerbem
Apr 27 2014, 02:34 AM
lunar2
Apr 27 2014, 02:27 AM
so gohan not transforming into a form that hadn't been discovered yet is your clue that gohan is weaker? as for the others, nobody except goku knew that gohan was the strongest one there, and goku was saving gohan for cell. also, goku is the only one with any experience handling other people's ki, so he can make better use of it.

there is also the fact that gohan can't be weaker, because he has to be strong enough to take on cell. if gohan is weaker than goku, then he is too weak to win against super perfect cell, even as an ssj2. but we know he won, because earth survived for movie 10 to be made.

also, your estimate of movie 10 broly is very weak. ssj broly > base m10 gohan >> mssj buu arc gohan => mssj goten and trunks. consider this even though base gohan is performing at a much higher level than his canon ssj counterpart possibly could, he still went straight to ssj2 just to combat ssj broly. even ssj gohan would not be enough to beat ssj broly, because broly is still that much more powerful than gohan.

also, lssj broly did not struggle against ssj2 gohan. you might want to rewatch the movie. gohan got thrashed, and was barely able to do anything at all.
Broly got kicked away 4 times, got his hold broken by brute strength, and outsped by Gohan

Another clue to this fact is that in Bio-Broly, Pikkon is expected to help against Broly. That would never happen if Broly was just so strong.

To make it clear, I don't believe in hax, so Base Gohan fighting Broly is, IMO, pure and utter nonsense. Even if you believe in hax, Gohan hardly did better, he didn't even land a single hit on Broly and Broly was clearly toying with him.

Then somehow, LSSJ Broly is getting outsped and knocked away by Gohan?


gohan wasn't haxed in M10. that's how powerful he would actually be if he had spent the 7 years training, like he would have done if he'd fought broly and cell back to back, convincing him that super powerful enemies can pop up out of nowhere. besides, it doesn't matter what you want to believe. what matter is what we are shown, which is gohan performing at an entirely different level than goten and trunks. since they couldn't have been nerfed by the shifting timeline (their power is natural, not from training, so there's no way to make them weaker) that means gohan has to be just as strong as he looks, whether you like it or not. that much is not up for debate. he outright states that he is stronger than he used to be, demonstrating exactly what the break from canon is, and then proves it by casually outperforming two fighters that are on par with his canon self, at least in the same form.

as to the ssj2 vs. lssj.

gohan punches broly, who powers through it and knocks gohan away with his own punch. clear advantage: broly

broly slams gohan into a rock, breaking through it. gohan escapes, and kicks broly, knocking his head to the side a little. broly grabs gohan by the arm, and puts him in a lock. gohan manages to get a little leverage, but has to actually kick broly to escape. also, strength and power are unrelated, so gohan being able to match broly physically is not a power feat.

then gohan does his lava run, where he is only matching broly's speed. this is despite the fact that gohan is one of the character's that is explicitly mentioned to be faster than normal, like burter, frieza, yakon, piccolo, and cell. so even with gohan's higher than normal speed, he can still only match broly's speed, he hardly outsped him. he never managed to put any distance between himself and broly.

then there is the fact that that little exchange burnt out gohan's reserves, since he immediately passed out afterwards, without even being able to get himself to safety.

and gohan didn't really do anything else until the beam battle, where it took 2 ssj2s and an mssj to slow down broly (not even stop him), and another mssj to to interrupt broly's attack.

so yeah, at no point did gohan do anything that even began to compare to broly's power.
Gohan was MSSJ in the beam struggle, so was Goku.

And physical strength should probably go to Broly, he's buff as Hell.

And when was Gohan stated to be faster than normal? Is this about Cell's little "Quick rodent!" comment? Because if so, I can say that about a 4 year old who's being more fast than I thought. Cell caught up instantly, it wasn't a case of Gohan being especially fast.

And Gohan knocks Broly away three times, imagine if Vegeta's kicks were doing the same thing to Cell
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