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| Abortion Disussion and Arguments | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 31 2014, 11:58 PM (11,991 Views) | |
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Apr 2 2014, 04:56 AM Post #76 |
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Maybe the reason I'm so pro-choice is because I can easily sympathize with rapists and murderers. Damn. Maybe I'm just a terrible person all around. I really want to make a thread about that someday... but now is not the time. 
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| Krystal | Apr 2 2014, 06:52 AM Post #77 |
Cooking Mama
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I honestly think this thread is a perfect example as to WHY abortion should be legal. Look at how OFG is treated simply for being pro-choice. She is called cold, likened to a murderer, said to"disgust" people... even if abortion is legal, there will still be people that can guilt women to carry their child to full term! And I still believe if a woman wants to miscarry, she will find a way. So why not have a safe way available? |
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| SaiyanHajime | Apr 2 2014, 07:24 AM Post #78 |
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Well actually, yeah, I'd argue they aren't a person anymore if there ain't s*** going on inside their brain. Because they've lost personhood. But I'd have a hard time coming to terms with them being gone. Because that's essentially what that is, they are gone. Everything I knew of them is gone. Now that's just a shell. I have a great aunt going through alzheimer's and she's most definitely gone. And whilst the concept is driving us all to think out thoughts are cruel, we're literally waiting for her to body to die. She and everything that she was is long gone. Her consciousness is so damaged it's not even functioning on basic animalistic levels anymore. The difference between that and a foetus is still pretty monumental. That person has lived, has accumulated a life of experience, of impact on others, of memories others carry with them. When anyone dies, in any way, the biggest and most important thing about that death is not themselves but those around them. This goes back to what I said about projecting of concept onto a foetus. If you want a child in any way, you project the concept of their future personhood onto what is literally a collective cellular pile of vegetable. And that's great, there's nothing wrong with that. I projected humanisms onto my pet dog, too. Humans do that, but I don't project humanisms onto the chickens I'm about to eat. It's about your relationship with a thing. None of it has any objective basis. So when a woman looses her unborn to a miscarriage after experiencing the delight of finding herself pregnant, that's a valid grief. She's mourning the loss of what she'd projected. If another woman chooses to abort the pregnancy at the same length into it who hasn't felt this way, that's an objective and perfectly valid way to feel also. |
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| Tonneh | Apr 2 2014, 07:43 AM Post #79 |
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Uh, if that was directed at me with the murderer thing - i was actually on the same side as OFG. I was prochoice under certain circumstances beforehand but Brofist swayed my opinion to all abortions should be legal. |
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| SaiyanHajime | Apr 2 2014, 07:46 AM Post #80 |
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Nah they're calling out Ice for comments earlier in the thread. |
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| EMIYA | Apr 2 2014, 12:56 PM Post #81 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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Gender Equality isn't going to get anywhere when the rights of a nigh parasitic useless fetus overweighs the right of a cognitive adult woman. |
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| Krystal | Apr 2 2014, 02:50 PM Post #82 |
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Cooking Mama
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I'm on my phone so i don't know who made each comment, I just noticed a lot pf hate her way. And if that's for being a pro-choice woman, imagine what it would be for actually considering abortion. I think the opinions of others will serve as a powerful weapon to prevent it even if it is legal. |
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| Deleted User | Apr 2 2014, 03:01 PM Post #83 |
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Deleted User
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@ofg Sorry about my harsh comments yesterday. @Saiyanhajime I see where you're coming from. But I think the main problem with abortion is that both sides have completely different opinions on what should be considered human. Let's have a look at the official definition: hu·man be·ing noun 1. a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance. Now the next big question: should fetuses be considered children? If not, then my stance on the matter was arguably wrong. |
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| EMIYA | Apr 2 2014, 03:37 PM Post #84 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Let's use that definition there and see what happens for a fetus. Superior Mental Development? You could argue such a thing but its clear that main development of the mental capacity occurs after birth as the child grows and adapts to its societal surroundings. Going through different subsections of mental growth such as the: 1.) Sensorimotor stage 2.) Pre-operational stage 3.) Concrete operational stage 4.) Formal operational stage based upon the theory of mental development for humans by the developmental psychologist Jean Piaget. Now each stage comes in order and the first one, Sensory Motor stage during birth to the first few weeks, confines mostly of the reflexives stages. For the others. Power of articulate speech? I think we can disagree on that. Upright stance? If there's anything we can agree on its that this doesn't apply to a fetus. But then again if that was the case than babies themselves wouldn't be human. The simple point is the so called definition of human given here (which I know you got from Google) doesn't even fit what a fetus is. |
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| Deleted User | Apr 2 2014, 04:27 PM Post #85 |
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Deleted User
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You're completely right. Fetuses don't have the qualities to be classified as a human by that definition. However, that's just one definition. Here's some more definitions (from TheFreeDictionary.com) : hu·man (hyo̅o̅′mən) n. 1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens. 2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica. adj. 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans: the course of human events; the human race 2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness. 3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans: a mistake that shows he's only human; human frailty. 4. Having the form of a human. 5. Made up of humans: formed a human bridge across the ice. [Middle English humain, from Old French, from Latin hūmānus; see dhghem- in Indo-European roots.] hu′man·hood′ n. hu′man·ness n. I bolded the definitions that apply to fetuses. |
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| Krystal | Apr 2 2014, 04:35 PM Post #86 |
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Cooking Mama
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Isn't that rather selective though? You ignored the definitions that would make a fetus less than human. If you can ignore them, can't others base their judgement on them and be no less wrong? |
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| Deleted User | Apr 2 2014, 04:47 PM Post #87 |
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Deleted User
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It's selective, because it has to be. It's impossible for something in this case to match up with every definition in existence. (Take the google definition above, for example) Not even children fit that definition of being human.& You have a really good point there. However, if a fetus technically fits a few definitions of being human, I don't really see why it shouldn't be seen as one. |
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| lunar2 | Apr 2 2014, 04:51 PM Post #88 |
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who said i was in favor of the death penalty? i am never in favor of the death penalty as a form of punishment. the only time i would be in favor of the death penalty is if someone commits a capital offense, gets convicted, and then commits another capital offense. because then they have proven that they are to violent to be allowed to live. the death penalty in that situation would not be used as a punishment for the crimes they have committed, but to prevent them from committing any more, just like when you put down a rabid dog. for the record, i'm also not in favor of euthanizing animals the first time they bite someone, unless it comes out that they have a medical issue or an aggressive personality. if a dog bites someone, we only have the word of the people involved as to what happened. it may have been a freak occurrence, or the person may have done something to provoke the dog. so if the dog is healthy and well behaved while in custody, it should be given another chance. as for why i am in favor of abortions in some cases. while the fetus and its mother may have equal worth, they do not have equal importance. if the mother's health is endangered by the pregnancy or childbirth, then she has to come first because she is already here. after all, she can survive without the fetus, but the fetus can't survive without her. so her health has to be protected above all. @ofg
i was actually referring to financial support. the woman has expensive medical bills coming her way, and will have a reduced capacity to perform certain types of jobs. the man should pick up the tab as his share of the responsibility, since the woman is the one who actually has to carry the child. as for damage done by a (normal) pregnancy: increased susceptibility to infection during pregnancy. this isn't so much a damage, as the body adjusting to avoid killing the other human its carrying around. it reverses itself shortly after giving birth. if you already have an immune system issue, this may be cause for an abortion, since it would exacerbate an existing health condition. and on the first two pages of google, that's all i can find on damages caused by a normal pregnancy. now, i know there are others. such as stretch marks (purely cosmetic, and avoidable with proper skin care). damage to the vagina or pelvic muscles (generally avoided in hospital births, since the doctor makes incisions in certain areas to prevent larger, messier tears). incontinence (seriously, you're going to kill your baby because you don't want to have to wear a pad?). breasts sagging (again, cosmetic. it's also correctable with a surgery that's generally cheaper and safer than abortion, so it's definitely not a reason to get an abortion). there are also complications of pregnancy, but these are separate from the symptoms and damages caused by normal pregnancy. yes, if a woman is showing risk factors for complications, she should be able to get an abortion. i already covered that with "any health condition related to or exacerbated by pregnancy". you also failed to mention the benefits of child birth. your body is built to have babies, and assuming no complications, you will be healthier over all if you have at least one. getting an abortion provides none of the health benefits of actually having a child. but what about the damages caused by abortions? http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/index.cfm/page/915/n/275 i will admit that abortion seems to be a fairly safe procedure, especially if done within the first trimester. but the potential damage done by an abortion, up to and including infertility or death, are just as bad as pregnancy and childbirth.
yes, i know condoms break. i just told you the failure rate of condoms. as for female birth control intrauterine device: 0.8% failure rate. the doctor puts it in, it stays for up to 10 years. no pills to worry about taking. just a trip to the doctor to put it in, and a trip to the doctor to take it out. Levonorgestrel intrauterine system 0.2% failure rate. like above, except it also releases small amounts of progestin to prevent pregnancy. "only" lasts for 5 years, though. Implant—The implant is a single, thin rod that is inserted under the skin of a women’s upper arm. The rod contains a progestin that is released into the body over 3 years. Typical use failure rate: 0.05%. although you are right about condoms. they have a 2% failure rate, and that was for perfect use. my bad. still, if you really don't want to get pregnant, there is the implant, with its 0.05% typical use failure rate. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| Krystal | Apr 2 2014, 05:01 PM Post #89 |
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Cooking Mama
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No, I get that they are human embryos, but are embryos themselves humans? If you can go simply by semblance to their adult form and the potential of life they have, why is eating an egg hardly considered animal cruelty while butchering chickens receives so much vitriol? |
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| Deleted User | Apr 2 2014, 05:20 PM Post #90 |
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Deleted User
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Human embryos are basically the equivalent to a human vegetable. Just because human vegetables aren't conscious, does it mean that they're a different species? No, of course not! That wouldn't make any sense at all. Fetuses have all the criteria to fit certain definitions of being a human. Just because they're not conscious, it doesn't mean that we should rename their species and view them as inferior. & That's a very interesting point of view. I never really thought of it from that perspective. However, I still disagree with you. |
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