SaiyanHajime

Apr 1 2014, 07:45 PM

Sort of irrelevant but just to throw a spanner in the works and get people's brains working,

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Let me create another scenario. Two college students have sex while drunk and don't use protection. This type of situation happens all the time. But this time, the woman gets pregnant, and the man abandons her to deal with it on her own. You may argue that it is her fault for getting drunk and having sex without protection, but do you know how she feels? The man who impregnated her abandoned her. She has to deal with this on her own. She's in college, and now her whole life is ruined because she made one simple mistake with someone, and now she bears all of the responsibility for it. Not the man, but her. As a woman.

Is that fair? No.

What if couple have drunken sex, male doesn't want to keep it, female does?

Should the dude have to pay to support a child he never wanted and had less* power to stop happening?

*Unfortunate biological fact that females have more opportunity to prevent a pregnancy than males do, since it's their body. With power comes responsibility.

Serious question? Not sure how I feel myself. I think perhaps men should be entitled to "opt out", but with that comes forgoing ALL contact with both mother and child.

ObsessiveFanGirl

Apr 1 2014, 07:36 PM

A human being is capable of thoughts, emotions, happiness, etc. A human being has had past experiences and learned from them; a human being actually exists in this world. I do not consider a fetus or sperm to be the same as an already living human being. Sorry. I would never kill my brother who I love. I would kill a fetus if it was threatening my life because it is not the same. We can't even determine its gender until a much later point in the pregnancy because it hasn't developed as a human being.

When I can see a month old fetus smile and laugh at me and see that sparkle in its eyes, maybe then I would consider it a human being. But that will never happen.

Father Brofist

Apr 1 2014, 07:46 PM

A heart or a lung is useful. You don't have to pay expenses for your heart and lung. Your heart and lung isn't feeding off your body, it's something that is very important for you to survive. You can live without a fetus or a baby, you can't live without your heart or lungs so while I get your idea, even I think that comparison doesn't fit.

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And no, females don't really have more opportunity to prevent pregnancy. Condoms work just as well as birth control does, and oftentimes they work better.

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You're downright cold.

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You'd kill a fetus simply because it' d be inconvenient for you? Wow. I'll say it again, wow.

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& a fetus is pretty different from sperm. Sperm die shortly after it leaves the body. It doesn't develop or grow like a fetus unless it enters another body. Sperm doesn't really have any human attributes, unlike fetuses. Fetuses are capable of feeling pain. As far as i know, sperm aren't.

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And by your logic a new born baby isn't a human being because it doesn't have any past experiences? Wow, idk what you're smoking, but I want some.

ice1994

Apr 1 2014, 07:51 PM

ObsessiveFanGirl

Apr 1 2014, 07:36 PM

A human being is capable of thoughts, emotions, happiness, etc. A human being has had past experiences and learned from them; a human being actually exists in this world. I do not consider a fetus or sperm to be the same as an already living human being. Sorry. I would never kill my brother who I love. I would kill a fetus if it was threatening my life because it is not the same. We can't even determine its gender until a much later point in the pregnancy because it hasn't developed as a human being.

When I can see a month old fetus smile and laugh at me and see that sparkle in its eyes, maybe then I would consider it a human being. But that will never happen.

You're downright cold.You'd kill a fetus simply because it' d be inconvenient for you? Wow. I'll say it again, wow.

& a fetus is pretty different from sperm. Sperm die shortly after it leaves the body. It doesn't develop or grow like a fetus unless it enters another body. Sperm doesn't really have any human attributes, unlike fetuses. Fetuses are capable of feeling pain. As far as i know, sperm aren't.

And by your logic a new born baby isn't a human being because it doesn't have any past experiences? Wow, idk what you're smoking, but I want some.

SaiyanHajime

Apr 1 2014, 07:55 PM

ice1994

Apr 1 2014, 07:51 PM

ObsessiveFanGirl

Apr 1 2014, 07:36 PM

A human being is capable of thoughts, emotions, happiness, etc. A human being has had past experiences and learned from them; a human being actually exists in this world. I do not consider a fetus or sperm to be the same as an already living human being. Sorry. I would never kill my brother who I love. I would kill a fetus if it was threatening my life because it is not the same. We can't even determine its gender until a much later point in the pregnancy because it hasn't developed as a human being.

When I can see a month old fetus smile and laugh at me and see that sparkle in its eyes, maybe then I would consider it a human being. But that will never happen.

You're downright cold.You'd kill a fetus simply because it' d be inconvenient for you? Wow. I'll say it again, wow.

& a fetus is pretty different from sperm. Sperm die shortly after it leaves the body. It doesn't develop or grow like a fetus unless it enters another body. Sperm doesn't really have any human attributes, unlike fetuses. Fetuses are capable of feeling pain. As far as i know, sperm aren't.

And by your logic a new born baby isn't a human being because it doesn't have any past experiences? Wow, idk what you're smoking, but I want some.

Okay I can't ignore you anymore.

A developing human foetus is less human-like than most of the animals we slaughter for food.

It is a parasite.

Yes, it's a gradual scale of development. Yes, there's a point it becomes sentient and conscious, but that point is comparatively late.

Don't get angry or aggressive or mock others for caring enough to debate with you. If you can't form a response that explains yourself, then walk away and leave it.

I cannot STAND people who find it necessary to mock others for their attempts to explain something complex.

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Fetuses are humans

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and should be treated as such.

SaiyanHajime

Apr 1 2014, 08:42 PM

Don't call me "buddy" mockingly and don't insult everyone's intelligence by playing innocent.

You've not read what I or OFG have said. You're twisting our words. You've not bothered to attempt to form any kind of argument back, just continually said "you're wrong".

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Fetuses are humans

When did I say they weren't? I think you'll find I said "less human-like" implying not biologically, but consciousness. They lack personhood. The attributes we associate with being "human". When we describe someone as "human" wer're implying they're fallible and conscious of thought and emotion and a bunch of other s*** a foetus is not capable of. This is a fact, not some belief of mine, a fact.

If you can't comprehend that then don't go on to the next bit because it's pointless.

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and should be treated as such.

Sorry, explain why?

SaiyanHajime

Apr 1 2014, 09:56 PM

The phenomenon of consciousness is an illusion created by a highly complex brain, which is in tern a highly complex collective of cells.

For the majority of development, those complexities are simply not present or not developed.

And what's more interesting? Even when it reaches a point where those facilities exist in it's body, it's under permanent sedation for the entire life in the womb. It's literally a vegetable.

There is nothing going on except very, very, very basic animalistic things.

It's not human in the metaphorical sense, it's not a person. Yes it is alive, but it's not a life. It doesn't have any of the qualities required for it to be.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19092726

ObsessiveFanGirl

Apr 1 2014, 05:16 PM

Brofist has already done a good enough job, but I may as well type out my thoughts.

Abortion and sexual rights go hand in hand with feminism. To fully understand abortion, one must first understand that men and women are still not equal.

Men cannot bear children. Women can. It's a basic biological difference that continues to make it difficult for women to attain the same rights that men have. Let me create a scenario for you. A man and a woman are dating. They both agree that they want to have sex because they are attracted to each other, find each other pleasing, and want to share that affection. They use protection. Later on, the woman discovers that she is pregnant, and the man that she has sex with abandons her to deal with the pregnancy on her own. This is a scenario that happens very often. Is it fair? No. But guess what? If the man has the right to leave the child, so does the woman. Is that a bit more fair? Yes.

We need to make things equal here. Lunar, you are placing men in higher regard than women with your argument. You're making it legal for men to abandon a fetus, but not for a woman to do the same. A woman cannot just up and leave like a man can because the fetus is inside of her, but she can abort it if she chooses to. Why? Because she is equal to a man, and she can make her own decisions the same way that a man can. Does this argument make any sense to you?

Let me create another scenario. Two college students have sex while drunk and don't use protection. This type of situation happens all the time. But this time, the woman gets pregnant, and the man abandons her to deal with it on her own. You may argue that it is her fault for getting drunk and having sex without protection, but do you know how she feels? The man who impregnated her abandoned her. She has to deal with this on her own. She's in college, and now her whole life is ruined because she made one simple mistake with someone, and now she bears all of the responsibility for it. Not the man, but her. As a woman.

Is that fair? No.

I understand that life isn't fair, but when we're dealing with inequality between two genders, it's an issue. This is a gendered issue.

Lunar, your argument about your grandmother is ridiculous, but I won't respond to it because Brofist already has.

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you did try to dictate which portions of the discussion people could have with you. relevant part bolded.

Yeah. So what? Religion should play no part in this, and I don't want to talk about it. Eat me.

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a woman can abandon the baby. after it's born. and i firmly believe that a man should stick around at least until the baby is born, as well. he should be responsible for her doctors appointments, and so on, if possible. now yes, once the baby is born, both parents can legally give up their parental rights.

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as for men and women not being equal in procreation. i don't hear you complaining that of the 1300 people executed in the U.S. since the death penalty was reinstated, only 17 were women. i don't hear you complaining that 15 men are incarcerated for every woman. or that women get custody of the children 80% of the time, and the men get saddled with obscene amounts of child support (and how often do you hear of a man getting alimony from his ex wife).

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and seriously, how often do you hear about a woman getting pregnant when they properly used protection? condoms only have a 1% failure rate (including failure due to improper use), and a woman only has a base 5% chance to get pregnant, anyway.

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don't try to compare a fetus to a sperm. a sperm is demonstrably not human (only has 23 chromosomes, humans have 46).

lunar2

Apr 2 2014, 04:35 AM

@brofist. that's what you don't get. your worth as a human being is not based on what you can contribute, or what your capabilities are. your worth as a human being is based on the fact that you are alive. and yes, a fetus is alive, and human. there is no point in your life where you are more or less human than any other point. humanity begins at conception and ends at death.

i am okay with abortions in the following situations:

the woman was sexually assaulted or abused, and that assault/abuse is what caused the pregnancy.

the mother is a minor.

the mother has a physical or mental health condition related to, or exacerbated by, pregnancy or childbirth, even if the health condition is not life threatening.

the fetus has a defect that will kill it before its first birthday.