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| Abortion Disussion and Arguments | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 31 2014, 11:58 PM (11,983 Views) | |
| + Steve | Apr 14 2014, 10:43 AM Post #196 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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No offense but I'm not seeing how a majority of American's being pro or con something makes it any less or more legit, most don't seem to be all that well informed about things like that, gay marriage etc. Abortions aren't that complicated compared to childbirth depending on when the thing is aborted I'm guessing they were American statistics where the healthcare isn't that great. I know a girl that had no less than 4 abortions and miscarried to other babies, physically she is fine, mentally probably not but it's not as risky a surgery as those statistics make it sound, at least not in the UK. Statistics from a place where it's heavily frowned upon I wouldn't trust, if they make it seem like people die from abortion all the time less people are going to want to have them. Why shouldn't a woman view herself and her life as more important than a fetus just because in 9 months or so it will be a human? She is more important, she has made an impact on the world, she might have a job possibly even other kids to take care of maybe she's a single mother with an infant. What if she was an extremely important surgeon who basically daily transplants new organs in to people and saves their lives, is the thing inside her that doesn't even have a brain yet more important? Your personal experiences and how you think you would handle the situation don't really matter, to be blunt, you are not every other woman everyone experiences things differently and everyone has different options available to them. Adoption is no guarantee they will have a good or better life anyway they could still just never get adopted or get adopted in to some hellhole, fairly sure there are way more kids up for adoption than there are people looking to adopt in most countries so there is a good chance the kid will never get adopted and have to live alone. Why bring something in to the world if you don't have it in you to give it the best life you could possibly give it? It's just cruel to bring an unwanted child in to the world and then assume that a non psychopath will adopt them, rather than kill something that has no feelings or brain function. Neither is a fantastic option but having the child just generates more problems for everyone involved. There's no legitimate reason why abortion should be illegal, especially not with the population as it is. |
 Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| EMIYA | Apr 14 2014, 01:01 PM Post #197 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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I'll say it once more. Denying abortion is a denial of women's rights. You are essentially saying that a fetus, a near parasitic organism that is unable to take care of itself for several years and that we in our western society are required to raise until about 18 years of age) one that costs social, physical, psychological and economical issues and relationship issues. People get abortions for several reasons. But it all goes down to one point, they don't want it. The positive outcomes of having a baby doesn't overweight the negative outcomes. And let's be honest, having a baby now a days is far less valuable than it was in the past. Women who get abortions don't want the baby, they don't want to deal with the issues that occur with it. A women should not be treated lesser than a fetus. A woman should have control over her own body and what is literally feeding off of it. A woman should have the right to decide what is best for her. Not for the parasitic organism that she doesn't want, but for herself. I'll say it right now. If some of you people honestly think the rights of a fetus should be above the rights of cognitive woman...than perhaps you shouldn't rights yourself. |
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Apr 14 2014, 05:17 PM Post #198 |
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Here's the thing, though, and like Brofist I've already said it multiple times in this thread. Just because you personally wouldn't have an abortion doesn't mean that all women think the same and that all women should have their rights restricted. I don't personally think that I would have an abortion, but my reasons are my own, just as another woman's reasons are her own. So I am all for abortion because I believe in women's (and peoples) rights, not because I personally want one. |
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| lunar2 | Apr 14 2014, 07:15 PM Post #199 |
 
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did you actually read my post, or did you just scan for key words? because i'm seriously getting the feeling that no one here is actually taking the time to read and understand what i am saying. i did not use americans' opinion on abortion to justify my stance on abortion. i simply pointed out that abortion is an unpopular procedure, and has a greater social stigma than giving a child up for adoption. because the proponents of elective abortions int his thread have repeatedly used the social stigma of having a child in certain situations as justification for elective abortions, i pointed out that the social stigma of getting an abortion is generally going to be worse. yes, i realize that early term abortions are relatively safe. only 3% of abortions have any complications, and only 1/6 of those are serious. and i seriously doubt that 6/100,000 deaths for surgical abortions is a number biased to discourage abortions. especially not when the rate of deaths for birth is 10/100,000. btw, the death rate for births is from wikipedia, the death rate from surgical abortions is from a pro choice website. because i'm not stupid enough to trust a pro life website about the medical risks of abortion (and i couldn't find any neutral sources). but yeah, you want to dispute the statistics (when they actually come out somewhat in your favor) maybe you should actually do some research instead of relying on anecdotal evidence and accusing people of being biased. nice argument about importance that ignores basically everything i've said on the subject, and then picks the most unlikely situation possible to try to justify every woman's right to get an abortion whenever they want. fun fact. transplants are performed by a team of doctors. no one doctor in that team is absolutely essential. transplants are also usually done in major hospitals that have more than one such team. and the argument about personal experiences falls flat because i even pointed out in the post you most definitely skimmed instead of actually reading that the standards i would hold myself to are different than the standards i think are fair, because i recognize that i am not the average person. did you seriously just try to argue that killing a human being without their knowledge or consent is better than giving a perfectly healthy person at least a chance to decide whether they want to live? do you even listen to the stuff you are saying? try saying some of that stuff out loud in front of people. you'd be committed in a heartbeat, as a danger to the people around you. but seriously before you go off spouting nonsense. do some research and compare how many adopted children were abused since 1973 to the 50,000,000 abortions committed in the US in that same time period. while you're at it, since you are so convinced that it's better to be dead than to be a ward of the state, check how many wards have committed suicide since that time, and compare it to the same 50,000,000 abortions. now, to make sure you get a balanced picture, see if you can find any statistics on the happiness or success of those wards, and compare it to the 50,000,000 children who never got a chance to be happy, or to have success. now granted, it would be harder to find statistics on happiness and success, because humans are obsessed with the negative. but if you really want to make the claim that killing a healthy human being is more humane than allowing them to be a ward of the state or be adopted, i expect you to back that up with some damn numbers. you don't get to throw out nonsense claims like that without some proof. @OFG like i said, i'm not basing the standards i set forth on my own experiences. the standards i would hold myself to if i were in that situation are much stricter than the standards i think are fair for the average person. and this isn't a hypothetical. scientists have already demonstrated the ability to actually grow a fully functional vagina from stem cells. once they figure out the rest of the reproductive system, i fully intend to get one. and yes, before you say anything, i know that still wouldn't make me an average woman. i'm just pointing out that i'm not coming from the standpoint of a man trying to keep women down, i'm coming from a standpoint of a genuine respect for the inherent value of human life. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| EMIYA | Apr 14 2014, 08:17 PM Post #200 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I do hope someone here isn't trying to compare abortion to suicide and child abuse. And I don't even know what this whole organ transplant business is. Edited by EMIYA, Apr 14 2014, 08:19 PM.
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| Krystal | Apr 14 2014, 08:29 PM Post #201 |
Cooking Mama
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Um no, you would not, unless we were transported to 1984 while I was sleeping and opinion is a crime now. Don't passively aggressively tell people they are crazy. How do you expect to be tak seriously as an advocate for unborn life if you can't respect the living people you speak to? |
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| + Steve | Apr 14 2014, 08:45 PM Post #202 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Too tired to read all that right now but I'll just point out one thing. Social stigma over abortion? Sure some people look down on others for having them but why should their be any stigma at all? Last I checked women who've recently had an abortion don't feel the need to tell everyone like it'd boost their street cred... Social stigma isn't really any kind of reason to keep a baby, pretty sure that if a young girl is walking around quite obviously pregnant more people are going to look down on her than if she had an abortion before anyone knew. It's seen it all the time, girls just at or under the legal age are usually branded lovely ladys for getting pregnant whereas if they get an abortion they face no social stigma unless they tell everyone. Not sure why people would favour adoption anyway, don't people tend to just have a "So you're too lazy to look after the child?" stance on it? |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| EMIYA | Apr 14 2014, 08:49 PM Post #203 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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You keep trying to compare a fetus to a full human life. There is a huge difference there and it shouldn't even be compared. The problem with making abortions illegal is what I and everyone else has been saying over and over again. You are denying the rights of a congnitive woman, a full human over the rights of a non-cognitive lesser human. Why should the rights of an adult human mean less than the rights of a fetus? It is literally no different than saying I have less rights than my sperm since my sperm is capable of becoming a child. That so called fetus was once a sperm. Edited by EMIYA, Apr 14 2014, 08:52 PM.
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| lunar2 | Apr 15 2014, 12:36 AM Post #204 |
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if you don't want to take the time to read and understand what i'm saying, then don't respond to it. you've made it painfully clear you have no interest in an actual discussion, and really just want to insult people that don't agree with you. steve attempted to make the point that it is more humane to have an abortion than it is to give a child up for adoption or as a ward of the state. i challenged him to prove that with some actual statistics on things like quality of life for those adopted, or how many wards of the state decide they don't want to live. if you think being dead is better than being a ward of the state, then prove it by showing how many actual wards agree with you, because only they are qualified to actually make that comparison.
when people start talking crazy and randomly arguing against things you didn't even say, it's hard to respect their position. yes, i stepped over the line a bit. but still, saying that aborting a healthy fetus is a humane thing to do is just crazy.
people get killed over abortion. people stand outside abortion clinics and harass patients and employess going in and out. yes, there is extreme social stigma over abortions. there are several states here in the US trying to pass laws making it so that if a relative of a woman, or the father of the child, kills the doctor who performed the abortion, it is justifiable homicide. that is how much abortion is hated over here. yes, there is extreme social stigma to getting an abortion. going to an abortion clinic is something that could actually get a woman physically assaulted. and since you're talking about underage girls, in case you didn't notice i did say that minors should be able to get an abortion because they are not developed enough to safely carry a child to term. as for adoption. no, the stance is generally not seen as "too lazy to take care of it". adoption is generally seen as "how noble to do what's best for the child, even though it's so hard."
and you keep trying to misrepresent my position. if you are going to jump back into this argument after you said you were going to stay out, you can at least take the time to read and understand what i'm saying. i never once said fetus' rights > womans' rights. i said woman's life and health (both physical and mental) > fetus' life > woman's desires. not all rights are created equal. my right to life, for example, is more important than your right to your beliefs, despite the fact that because of my severe mental disabilities, my sexual orientation, my economic status, and several other traits, i would be considered by many to be a "lesser human." it is very different than saying you have less rights than your sperm. for one, and i repeat, i never said that the woman's rights were less than the fetus' equivalent rights. in fact, i said exactly the opposite. when you look at equivalent rights (life to life, health to health), i've consistently said the woman's rights are more important. in fact, unlike most pro life people, i even went a step further and said the woman's right to health > fetus' right to life. look it works like this. you have a bunch of different rights. but they don't all exist on the same level. some of them are more important than others. for example, a person's right to life is more important than a person's right to freedom of speech. that's why fighting words and attempts to cause panic (such as yelling fire in a theater)are not protected forms of speech. because those forms of speech endanger people's lives, the right to free speech is overridden by the right to life. so my claim is not that the fetus' rights outweigh the woman's rights in general. my claim is merely that the fetus' greater rights (life and health) outweigh the woman's lesser rights. and for the record, although i do believe that a woman has the right to choose what to do with her body, i believe that right was adequately satisfied when she made the threefold choice to get pregnant to begin with. that threefold choice being 1. the choice to have intercourse. 2. the choice not to use birth control, or to improperly use birth control. and 3. the choice not to use emergency contraceptive when any layer of birth control fails (and who is it that really doesn't want a child and isn't using at least 2 layers of birth control, when condoms and pills are available for free). and no, go back and reread your biology textbooks. a fetus was never a sperm. the zygote comes into existence when the sperm and egg combine. the zygote did not exist before that combination. quit trying to make false comparisons to prove your point, because it doesn't work. you know what? i have been thinking, though. it really pains me to say this. but if a woman can prove that birth control was used properly, and she got pregnant anyway, she should be able to get an abortion if she either couldn't have known the birth control had failed, she took plan b and that also failed, or she had a medical reason she couldn't take plan b. examples i would consider of proper birth control: unexpired hormone implants unexpired intrauterine devices broken or defective condoms that were not weakened by oil. condoms that fall off don't count, because they were the wrong size. condoms weakened by oil don't count, because you aren't supposed to use oil based lubricants with condoms. vasectomy tubal ligation if it can be proven that it was taken consistently, birth control pills would count, too. but i don't know if that can be proven. i realize that 2 of those are meant to be permanent (and expensive), and 2 are relatively expensive (but are also the most effective forms of reversible birth control). condoms and birth control pills, on the other hand, are available for free, and have very low failure rates when used properly. and condoms can definitely be proven if it was used properly or not. a google search turns up nothing on whether proper pill use can be proven. instead all i get is a bunch of crap about the pill being an abortificant, or about it not being foolproof. anyway, that's as far as i'm willing to go. if a woman can prove she properly used birth control, and got pregnant anyway, she can get an abortion, even if she's healthy. you have no clue how badly it hurts to type that. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Apr 15 2014, 12:56 AM Post #205 |
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But... how do these arguments even go together?
Sounds to me like "exception, exception, NO WAY! CRAZY!" |
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| lunar2 | Apr 15 2014, 02:36 AM Post #206 |
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i never said that it was fair or humane for a fetus to have to die just because it's mother was underage. and i reeeeeaaaaallllllly don't like the contraceptive one. so no, there's no contradiction there. aborting a healthy fetus may sometimes be necessary to protect the mother, but don't delude yourself into thinking you are somehow helping the fetus by killing it. unless you believe in some kind of afterlife or reincarnation, you are denying a human being the only chance they will have for life. and yes, it is possible that their life would suck. but you know what? it's more probable that their life would turn out pretty good, because most people are at least somewhat satisfied with their life. and you are denying them both the chance to experience life for themselves, and the choice to decide whether or not they like it. sometimes it needs to be done, but it is never a good thing. like i said before, the only time an abortion would be the humane thing to do is when the child would die very young anyway. as a rule of thumb, i would say before the first birthday, because doctors really can't predict lifespan with any degree of accuracy beyond that point. as for them being exceptions. yes, every rule has exceptions. it's impossible to make a rule that applies 100% of the time. even the law of gravity has some weird quirks to it. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| EMIYA | Apr 15 2014, 02:46 AM Post #207 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Good luck making an exception though. If a person wants an abortion there going to get an abortion. Its not like someone goes up and says: Woman: Yeah I swear we used protection! I got the condom right here! What do you want them to do, bring the doctor a used condom as proof or something? It isn't like there' s a way to differentiate between the mistakes and the just didn't bother group. |
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| lunar2 | Apr 15 2014, 04:15 AM Post #208 |
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sure there is. cuts are easily distinguishable from tears, and oil based lubricants change the chemical composition of the rubber, making it softer and weaker. so, yes. if the condom breaks, save it and bring it with you to the doctor. along with either some medical paperwork showing you can't take plan b, or a receipt from within 5 days of intercourse to show you did take plan b, and it didn't work. it isn't complicated, it's really not that big of a hassle to hold on to a piece of paper and a piece of rubber for a few weeks to make sure you don't need them. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| Krystal | Apr 15 2014, 06:30 AM Post #209 |
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Cooking Mama
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If exceptions are possible, why not make them go the other way? Make abortion legal, but individual doctors can refuse to perform abortion if they feel the circumstances are wrong, in the same way a doctor can deny a person a procedure if they believe it will not do much good. Doctors can deny alcoholics liver transplants, perhaps some abortion doctors don't want to do five abortions to a woman per year. This way it protects those who need it, and can contribute to curbing those that would abuse the right. |
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| lunar2 | Apr 15 2014, 01:36 PM Post #210 |
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doctors being able to refuse to do an elective procedure is already the reality, afaik. but yes, docotors should be able to refuse to do abortions that aren't medically necessary. also, last i heard, doctors were not allowed to refuse to perform life saving surgery. they can't just let you die. liver transplants are different because there are a limited number of transplantable livers. doctors have to make sure they will go where they will do the most good. but anything that isn't taking up a resource that there is a shortage of, doctors can't just stand by and let you die if they can save you. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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