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- Abortion Disussion and Arguments
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| Abortion Disussion and Arguments | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 31 2014, 11:58 PM (11,984 Views) | |
| Master Gohan | Apr 13 2014, 06:21 AM Post #181 |
 
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I still don't see what's the big deal about a whatever week old fetus is to everyone. who gives |
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| lunar2 | Apr 13 2014, 04:55 PM Post #182 |
 
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metabolism happens on a cellular level. as long as nutrients go in, cellular activity happens, and waste materials go out, the metabolism is functioning properly. yes, a fetus can't survive outside the womb. that's because the womb is where the fetus is supposed to be. a fish can't survive outside of water. do we say that it's not alive because it can't leave the environment that it is supposed to live in? |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| + Pelador | Apr 13 2014, 05:06 PM Post #183 |
Crazy Awesome Legend
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People with Downs Syndrome don't have the same number of chromosomes either. So by your logic it would be acceptable to terminate them? |
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| lunar2 | Apr 13 2014, 08:27 PM Post #184 |
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a person with downs syndrome has a chromosomal disorder. they have more chromosomes then they are supposed to. a haploid cell has exactly how many chromosomes it is supposed to have, which is not how many chromosomes a human has. nice try, though. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| SaiyanHajime | Apr 13 2014, 10:15 PM Post #185 |
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 Well, many fish did and some still do today, and they paved the way for all life on land, including ourselves. Welcome to Evolution. Can I recommend the book "Your Inner Fish" by Neil Shubin? But seriously, a foetus is a parasite and it's pretty massively different to any creature in it's adult form. Your argument about being working or functional is a mess. All individuals differ, some of those differences are beneficial others not. That's what evolution is all about. The process isn't conscious, so any judgement call about what is "functional" or "normal" or "correct" or "working" is not objective, but something a human mind (yours, in this case) just made up arbitrarily. Edited by SaiyanHajime, Apr 13 2014, 10:18 PM.
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| lunar2 | Apr 13 2014, 10:57 PM Post #186 |
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yes, a few species of fish can survive on land. my argument still applies to the over 99% of fish that can't. they are alive, despite being restricted to a single environment. life is not determined by the variety of environments you can survive in. and evolution has absolutely nothing to do with abortion. you guys are really grasping at straws trying to justify elective abortions. and that's the issue. when you try to argue that one human has the right to kill another human simply because they don't want to take care of them, you have to go to increasingly crazy lengths to justify that position. if you go to the parasite argument. have you ever heard of a parasitic twin? it is an identical twin that never detached during pregnancy, and, being not fully developed, is dependent on the host twin for sustenance. according to your arguments, since the parasitic twin is, by definition, a parasite, the functional twin has every right to kill their twin simply because they do not want them, even if the parasitic twin is not causing health problems. it should be noted that there has been at least one case where the parasitic twin definitely had a brain, and appeared to be conscious. unfortunately, in that case the twin had to be removed anyway to save the host twin's life. i'm restricting this argument specifically to the (so far unrecorded, but most defintely possible) case of a parasitic twin that both has a brain and is not a danger to the host twin's life or health. is merely being dependent on another human enough to give that person the right to kill you if they don't want you? |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| EMIYA | Apr 13 2014, 11:44 PM Post #187 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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Telling someone to just give up a child for adoption is like me going up to an AIDS victim, smacking them in the face and going "stop having AIDS!" You really think its that simple people?
Edited by EMIYA, Apr 13 2014, 11:44 PM.
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| + Steve | Apr 14 2014, 12:33 AM Post #188 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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I don't see why a fetus shouldn't be aborted just because it's alive, it is just a parasite for a long time until their brain develops it's just a hunk of working organs, it's not a being of any sort with conscious thought and serves no real purpose. Keeping them alive just because they live is as logical as keeping a braindead coma patient with no chance of recovery alive. Neither serve a purpose in their current states, they are forced to remain only because of emotion based decisions. Why should any woman be forced to have the child? Ruin her body and cause all that stress just because she got pregnant beyond her control, adoption doesn't fix anything the woman still has to live with the fact that her body will probably never be the same and that she gave up a child, just because it was illegal to abort it when it was merely a parasite. Possible life long physical and psychological problems just because someone else dictated she had to go through that and/or keep a child she didn't want and possibly couldn't support. Plus the months of pain and sickness during the actual pregnancy, why should she be forced through that when she didn't ask for the child? She hardly deserves the punishment because sperm managed to get through whatever contraception methods were used and fertilized an egg. It's not like women have any kind of control over whether or not they get pregnant, short of getting their ovaries removed. The thing being "alive" in the early stages is a senseless argument, it's as alive as the bacteria you scrub off your toilet or kitchen floor, why should it deserve rights over the actual living being? |
 Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| lunar2 | Apr 14 2014, 01:30 AM Post #189 |
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actually, if they really don't want the child, it is that simple, at least in the US. you take the child to the nearest fire station, you leave them at the front desk, and you walk out. no paperwork, no embarrassing questions, nothing. the only thing you have to deal with is the emotional toll it will take on you, and the social stigma if anyone cares. which, if you have any kind of conscience, will be the same or less than the emotional toll of getting an abortion, and certainly less social stigma. also, the AIDS comparison is a little faulty, since at least 1 person has actually been completely cured of AIDS, and the cure is currently in clinical trials. so yes, in a few more years, i will go around slapping AIDS patients in the face and yelling "stop having AIDS!" |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Apr 14 2014, 01:36 AM Post #190 |
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That is one of the most untrue statements/arguments I've seen posted here in a long time. |
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| + Steve | Apr 14 2014, 01:38 AM Post #191 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Sorry but you make it sound like the whole process of going through pregnancy and just leaving a child somewhere is totally easy, like the baby just flies out of there and you can toss it in the nearest bush, lol. Regardless of whether or not they want it most mothers form an emotional attachment to it, knowing you're not good for the child and having to leave it is enough to break anyone. The actual act of leaving the child is simple but there's so much more to it than that. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| lunar2 | Apr 14 2014, 03:21 AM Post #192 |
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actually, as of 2002, 41 states had passed "safe haven" laws, allowing a parent to leave the child at a hospital or fire station (and sometimes other areas) within a certain amount of time after birth (usually 72 hours, but some, such as texas, as long as 60 days). depending on the individual law, this either conferred an affirmative defense to abandonment, endangerment, or abuse charges, or provided outright immunity. of course, in the majority of cases, having an affirmative defense means you won't be charged to begin with. while some laws may have different requirements of the parent, the texas law merely requires the parent to leave the child at Emergency medical services provider Employee at a licensed child-placing agency Employee at a licensed residential child-care provider and not express an intent to return for the child. so yes, what i said was, in fact, true. it is as simple as walking into a hospital, handing them the child, and walking out. next time you want to call someone a liar, do your research first. http://www.cwla.org/programs/pregprev/safehaventx.htm @steve: and many of the risks of carrying a child to term are the same risks you face during an abortion. quit trying to make it seem like we are comparing some life ending, horrible process of birth to something equivalent to getting a flu shot. abortion is much riskier than you seem to think it is, and pregnancy is much safer than you seem to think it is. and yes, there are emotional issues and social stigma to having a child and giving it away. there are also emotional issues and social stigma to having an abortion. having an abortion is not the "easy way out" most of you seem to think it is. it has its own set of risks, its own consequences, and is a very expensive procedure that insurance generally doesn't cover. generally, the people who think they need an abortion for economic reasons are the very people who can't afford to get one in the first place. on the risks of complications from abortions vs. pregnancy: abortion in first 13 weeks (when the vast majority of abortions happen): 3% risk of complications (2.5% minor, .5% serious) i can't find exact numbers for later term abortions, or for the various risks associated with childbirth. however, the current rate of mortality from childbirth in the US is 1/10,000. death from surgical abortion is .6/10,000. so the numbers are fairly close. you know, there is an interesting fact i learned the other day. did you know that Norma McCorvey, better known as Jane Roe, is pro life? back in '73, she was 21, pregnant for the 4th time, and seeking a legal abortion in texas. she gave birth before the case reached the supreme court. she has 3 daughters now (her second and 3rd child were given up for adoption) and has never had an abortion. she is horrified by elective abortions, and the consequences of the case she was a part of, and now fights to get it overturned. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Apr 14 2014, 03:34 AM Post #193 |
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I wasn't talking about the "facts," lunar. I know it's perfectly possible to drop a kid off. What I'm arguing is the validity of your statements. You're lumping all adoptions and women together into the same group. Maybe you should try being a pregnant woman first before calling these things "easy" or "simple." Because emotionally it is anything but that, and it is NOT the same or less than the emotional toll of abortion. So you're dead wrong. Sorry.
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Apr 14 2014, 03:36 AM.
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| Master Gohan | Apr 14 2014, 04:39 AM Post #194 |
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I can leave a baby on the street, its not hard to physically leave a baby. Emotionally isn't easy. You can't just be like "ADOPTION GREAT IDEA DO IT NO BIG DEAL" No, it isn't like that. I haven't had a kid yet and I wouldn't ever want to give up my baby for adoption. This is what many people feel. It's not that easy. |
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| lunar2 | Apr 14 2014, 05:09 AM Post #195 |
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i never said it was emotionally easy. i simply said " the only thing you have to deal with is the emotional toll it will take on you ". so i admitted that part in the very post where you said i denied it. but if you care about your child so much that you can't give them away, how can you rationalize killing them? that takes some serious selfishness, right there. and as for the social stigma considering that, according to the latest gallup polls, a majority of americans are against elective abortions, yes, the social stigma of giving your child up for adoption is going to be far less than the social stigma of getting an abortion. because in a lot of circles, giving away a child you can't properly take care of is seen as a noble thing to do. absolutely nobody in their right mind thinks abortion is noble. even the most fervent proponents see it as a distasteful necessity, and they will admit it themselves. and you know me. if i could be a woman, i would be. i'm fervently hoping that science advances to the point they can do a true sex change before i'm too old to enjoy it. so yeah, when i think about my opinion on various women's issues, i'm thinking about them from the hypothetical situation where i am a woman. and you know what? the position i've stated here is actually more lenient than the standard i would hold myself to, because i've already accounted for the fact that i don't know what it's like to be a woman, and i don't know what the emotional impact of a lot of situations would be, and i know i've generally got more of a self sacrificing personality than other people do. so yes, if i had been a girl as a teenager, and got pregnant, i would have kept the child. yes, if i had been the 1 out of 3 women that was raped, i would keep the child. yes, if the pregnancy posed a risk to my health that was not crippling or life threatening, i would keep the child. and certainly yes, if i just didn't want a child, or couldn't afford the health costs of the pregnancy, i would go into bankruptcy to have the child, and then decide if i wanted to give it away (assuming i still didn't want it, or couldn't afford it) or keep it (assuming i changed my mind, and could afford it). because i actually respect the inherent value of human life. i actually care about people other than myself. and i actually care about the consequences of my actions. but then again, i've seen the worst that life has to offer. i've lived with the absolute dregs of humanity. i've seen what happens when people put their own desires above everything else, even the safety, wellbeing, and rights of others. i've most certainly seen what happens when you act without regard to the consequences. so yeah, when you've seen how bad life can really get, you realize just how valuable every little bit of good actually is, and how everyone deserve a chance to make the best life possible. so yeah, maybe my position is a little skewed. maybe, if i didn't have close, personal experience with the inherent value of human life even at its worst, i'd be more apt to agree with you. maybe if i didn't wake up every single day wondering if it would be the day that i die, i wouldn't value life so much. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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