ice1994

Apr 3 2014, 06:38 PM

@Krystal I'm 99% sure that's the main reason why most women fight for abortions(under any cirmustance) so ardently. I really don' think it's a misconception at all.

& I do understand the necessity and pain behind them. I just think they should only have them if they have a viable reason for doing so.

ice1994

Apr 3 2014, 06:57 PM

Krystal

Apr 3 2014, 06:41 PM

ice1994

Apr 3 2014, 06:38 PM

@Krystal I'm 99% sure that's the main reason why most women fight for abortions(under any cirmustance) so ardently. I really don' think it's a misconception at all.

& I do understand the necessity and pain behind them. I just think they should only have them if they have a viable reason for doing so.

You understand it as a necessity or as sexual freedom?

Mainly a necessity.

Edit: I was browsing youtube and I found some disturbing videos about the matter. I'm just posting them for general discussion.

Here'a one about a fetus reacting to getting poked. : (you have to have a YouTube account and be over 18 to watch it)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fat-ASCJWZo&has_verified=1&layout=mobile&client=mv-google

And here's one about a fetus that survived abortion & found out later on in life that she was aborted. Warning: it's pretty sad.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vdm-i62hRdc

On another note, I noticed many women on YouTube regret their abortions and they seem really emotionally scarred about it.

Father Brofist

Apr 3 2014, 12:48 PM

@ Lunar: I suggest you look up the term "Strawman Fallacy before start throwing stuff out. Secondly, yes you are declaring the fetus more important. You are saying that the rights of the woman to abort it is less important than the rights of the fetus itself. It's like saying you're going to save the dog trapped on the sinking boat but not the full grown man. And heck at least the dog might have done something to make itself known. Might have had a family that loved it, might have done something socially.

It's very hard to make a comparison for fetus to many things and make the fetus look better because it's literally one of the most useless things in the world.

But you seem to have this ideology that all things deserve life. I do hope you're saving every last insect, every last animal, every last bacteria in the world then, because not only are all of those alive...all of them provide more than that fetus did.

People abort females because its a social issue, something countries and places actually try to fight against. For example in China, do you know why the One Child Policy was integrated? It's because during the 1970s China had made a huge increase in its society by an increase in an industrial build up. This along with the fact that about 5-6 children were born per family lead to a massive increase in the population until it began to overrun China.

Girls were being killed because of the social desire to have male heirs but the Chinese Government mind you outlaws this sort of action. Even after the One Child Policy was implemented, the increase in population still rose by a great amount. So yes, abortion here would actually be quite good. Less pregnancy and lowering the population rate in such a scenario here would be quite decent.
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Women aren't stupid, if they don't want to get pregnant, they're going to do anything they can not to get pregnant. Abortions still costs a lot of money and why bother with all of that when we can use protection. But it is really infuriating for me to see all of you people acting like we need to give these fetus' chances when they haven't done anything at all and potentially provide negative impacts on the woman both physically, psychologically and socially.

I made the point before some pages back. If birthing was as easy as sneezing, it wouldn't be a problem. There would be no physical issues, or psychological issues or social issues. You could sneeze out your baby and if you don't want it, hand it over to the doctors and go on your way. But its not that easy and yes as cruel as it might sound, there are some things more important than others.

1.) Pregnancy can lead to physical complications

2.) Pregnancy can lead to psychological complications

3.) Pregnancy can lead to social complications

4.) Pregnancy if not adopted leads to increase economical issues with raising the child.

5.) A child decreases relationship happiness until the age of when the child leaves.

6.) For thousands of years women were treated as nothing more than property of the man and their virginity nothing more than a product of the man's possession.

7.) Unlike today, population control was not an issue.

8.) Children in the past actually provided labor support for families and were well desired by families.

It's very simple people. If a woman doesn't want to give birth, she shouldn't have to give birth. This "so called life" you all keep talking about will not be remembered nor is it wanted at all and it has not made a single impact on anyone and has not even reached some of the most basic stages of development.

So yes a woman's right over her body and what is inside of her body is most important.

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A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" implies an adversarial, polemic, or combative debate, and creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument, ("knock down a straw man,") instead of the original proposition.

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.

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this is exactly what you did, and are continuing to do. i made the argument that mother's health > fetus's life > mother's convenience. you're arguing against the point fetus > woman, which was never a part of my argument. so yes, you are arguing a strawman.

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also, there is no such thing as a "right to abort". that's some made up bulls*** by pro-choice advocates. so yes, the fetus's actual rights are more important than the nonexistent right to abort.

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dog vs. man: another strawman. a more accurate representation would be that i would save the dog before i saved the man's bible. when comparing an actual life to an inanimate object or intangible ideal, the life wins every time.

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you are also still making the mistake that your value is external. that what you are worth is determined by what you have done or what people think of you. it's not. your value is inherent. it is simply a part of existing. you exist, therefore you have a potential future, and it is that future that gives you value.

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you obviously don't understand simple math. if a family is only having one child, then in the long term, population growth not only stops, it reverses itself. the rate of population growth couldn't have possibly increased after the implementation of the one child policy, because people were having fewer children. only the very rich families could afford to pay the fines associated with multiple children, so only the very rich families are still having a bunch of kids.

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3.) Pregnancy can lead to social complications

so? life is more important than social status.

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if you can't afford to raise the child, you certainly can't afford to have an abortion. and no one forced you to keep the child, that's on you.

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generally false. most families with children are happier than those without. it may have something to do with all those hormones released in the brains of parents to make them love and care for each other more. relationships with children are statistically much more stable than those without, even after the child is grown.

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abortion isn't what changed this, and doesn't address this problem at all. birth control actually goes much further in addressing this issue, and is both cheaper and safer

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most children do still help around the house, and are desired by the families that keep them. child labor, on the other hand, was always a bad thing.

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and the rest of your post is the same crap about your value being determined by what other people think of you, and what you have already done, and that somehow one person's desires are more important than another person's life. you really should look at where those attitudes have led us in the past. hint: it's never anything good, and generally devolved into some of the darkest periods of human history. those attitudes have never once led to positive change in society.

lunar2

Apr 3 2014, 11:00 PM

fetus vs. animals: none of those animals, barring a few such as an ape or a dolphin, even come close to the value of that fetus, because they don't have the same potential. it's not about what you have done, it's about what you will do.

Steve

Apr 4 2014, 01:37 AM

This is off any current points but still relevant to the topic at hand.

You have to pay for abortion in America I assume? That seems...warped...
I mean it's not really a person but it kind of is like hiring doctors to murder

Sounds a bit disgusting to have to pay for it really, what if it's a child? "Oh sorry you don't have $3000, better get having that baby then even though it will ruin your life and body which we won't attempt to fix because you don't have money, have a nice day"
(not that I know how much it costs)

Not really a fan of having to pay for medical care anyway since taxes should cover that but abortion definitely shouldn't be something people have to pay for, it's big enough an ordeal for the woman.

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Guess it's up to the dude to convince the woman whether not it would be a good thing to do either way but if a woman goes ahead and has a baby the guy 100% didn't want he shouldn't have to care for it, depending on the circumstances.