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| Kibito Kai vs SSJ2 Gohan (Movie 10) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 15 2014, 05:22 PM (5,094 Views) | |
| + Yusuke | Mar 16 2014, 07:36 PM Post #31 |
 
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Does getting someone off guard really matter? If Trunks was so weak, his kick would have done nothing to Buu. And why should Trunks surving Super Buu's punch be treated as a gag? More importantly, why is everything in the RoSaT a "gag". Kaioshin clearly asked for help against Yakon where as if he wasn't stronger than him, he wouldn't ask for anyone's help and would blitz his head off. In addition to that... - If Kaioshin was SSJ2 tier, why would he fear Dabura? Dabura was only on par with MSSJ Gohan so if Kaioshin was on that level, he'd be laughing at how weak Dabura is. Obviously, that's not the case. - His Potara fusion with Kibito would take him well above SSJ3 tier to a point where he can one shot Pure Buu if he was SSJ2 tier. |
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| Gohan Boo | Mar 16 2014, 07:59 PM Post #32 |
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It did the same damage to him as Piccolo's kick to 50% Freeza. Because it's clear there just for laughs.Toriyama even says it's gag in one of the interviews. Kaioshin doesn't know Yakon's power. -Gohan was arguably a SSJ2 against Dabra and he is the king of the Demon Realm. -How Potara works is a mystery.It could easily be because Kibito is much weaker, that he actually almost hinders the Kaioshin part. |
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| + Yusuke | Mar 16 2014, 08:11 PM Post #33 |
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The bottom line in that matter is that it was able to do damage to Buu. Whether or not he was caught off guard is irrelevant. I don't get what's so funny about that particular scene? And what's the interview you speak of? Why wouldn't Kaioshin know Yakon's power? That sounds like a lot of balony to me. Gohan was indeed an SSJ against Dabura. His design in the manga even shows it. Goku even remarks that Dabura was on the same level as the Cell he fought. All signs point to Gohan being an SSJ and he still had the upper hand against Dabura. Vegito as an SSJ literally crushed Buuhan. Goku and Vegeta as SSJ's aren't even stronger than FP Perfect Cell. With that kind of increase, Kibitokai would one shot Pure Buu with an unamped ki blast. |
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Mar 16 2014, 08:14 PM Post #34 |
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Lol, Kaioshin rivalling SSjin 2 Gohan? He is much weaker than SSjin Gohan based on the Z Sword I doubt he is much stronger than Base Goku |
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| Gohan Boo | Mar 16 2014, 08:33 PM Post #35 |
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How is that irrelevant?Piccolo couldn't even touch Initial Freeza, yet off-guard and with Gohan and Kuririn's ki, he kicked 50% Freeza miles away. How about the fact, that Trunks complains to Evil Boo about not letting them fuse. Boo, a monster that wiped out hundreds of planets in the past(if not more) , and who just few minutes ago wiped out the entire population. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-5-akira-toriyama-super-interview/ Because he is a Majin.They can't sense their ki. Designs are innacurate and Gohan even has one bang instead of two.Plus, the story itself hints at Gohan being SSJ2 in many occasions. Goku telling Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell, instead of just saying ''go past the Super Saiyan wall''.Fat Boo post-1st power up being a threat to the likes of SSJ2 Goku, when before, he was trash talked by Dabra and Gohan even mentioned, that if he unleashes his full power, he will be able to do something.Goku is extremely vague and just says he is strong as Cell.Nothing about Cell being the one he fought. Vegeta and Goku are equals/rivals.Kibito and Kaioshin aren't.Hence the rivals comment from Elder Kaioshin. The Z-Sword scene doesn't really prove much, as it could be based on their physical power, not ki. Edited by Gohan Boo, Mar 16 2014, 08:34 PM.
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| + Yusuke | Mar 16 2014, 08:54 PM Post #36 |
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- Not being to touch an opponet is not the same thing as someone tanking an attack. And? What about it? Super Buu isn't exactly the smartest person in the world. - And Piccolo can sense Majin Vegeta. Once again, your point? - Not only is this supported by the designs but Toriyama clearly shows SSJ2 when it's being used with the SSJ2 lighting effect (see the manga for yourself). Goku even specifically says Dabura is on the same level as the Cell he fought. There's no getting around this. - Buu was shown to power up various times in the manga. Initial Buu was a joke to Gohan but after he powered up, he was'much stronger than Gohan. - Their's a huge gap between Base Goku and Mystic Gohan yet Old Kai still encouraged using Potara. So what? |
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| Gohan Boo | Mar 16 2014, 09:08 PM Post #37 |
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They usually are the same thing, only it's just that the fighter just decides to tank the attack instead of dodging it. That's the joke.He disses and whines at a monster, that wiped out the populace. Majin Vegeta wasn't under his control, so that could be why he could sense him. Not always have the SSJ2 lightning.Take Vegeta for example when he takes the senzu bean from Goku. Goku doesn't say that. Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…” If Gohan was FPSSJ, then he wouldn't need to power up that much, let alone be a threat to SSJ2 Goku. They would have fused in base.He didn't want them to fuse as Super Saiyans, as it would have shortened their lifespan.Ultimate could have the same effect. |
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| + Yusuke | Mar 16 2014, 09:38 PM Post #38 |
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- And Freiza was never shown to tank Piccolo's attacks. That's a pretty big assumption. - So I guess that means every instance of cockiness is a gag then right? Vegeta doing the same thing to Frieza and 18 is also a gag I suppose under that logic. - He was still a Majin and Babidi helped raised his power. That's a pretty lame excuse TBH. - That was towards the end of the fight were both fighters are clearly worn out. Toriyama doesn't make mistakes like that. Clearly, their's no lightning on Gohan@Dabura. It's universally accepted that Gohan is an SSJ and is supported multiple times throughout the manga? Why do you continue to deny it? - Then what Cell do you think he's talking about? SPC? Obviously he's talking about the same Cell he fought given Gohan lost a lot of power in the 7 year gap. - That's because theirs multiple levels Fat Buu was at. 1. Initial (The form Gohan thought he could beat) 2. Buu @Kaioshin/Gohan (The Buu Gohan said he would have no chance against and the one Vegeta was initally beating). 3. Buu @Vegeta (Buu when powering up against Vegeta. Also the same Buu Goku fought). - That's another problem right there. Your assuming Ultimate is a transformation when all the Old Kai did was raise Gohan's Base power go a point were SSJ is not significant. |
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| Gohan Boo | Mar 16 2014, 09:56 PM Post #39 |
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True, but Vegeta's blast got easily deflected by his mere foot and Vegeta is way stronger than Piccolo there. You ignored that interview link and no, it's not cockiness, it's him whining at Boo.Vegeta wasn't whinning at them not being fair, now was he? He wasn't under his control.How come he is the only Majin, who's ki can be sensed and just so happens to be disobeying Babidi? A good chunk of their fight is cut out by the Budokai scenes of 18 vs. Goten and Trunks, so he could have easily been worn out.Goku even says to Gohan, that he lost good chunk of energy. Please show me, where is it supported, that he was FPSSJ, aside from the sparks issue? Both Daizenshuu 7 and Chozenshuu state Gohan was SSJ2.Official material>Fan opinions. Cell, as in Cell.There isn't a name like Super Perfect Cell or Buff Cell in the manga.He is just Cell.Dabra is just in that wide range of power. It just depends on what form do you believe Gohan was in.I believe he was SSJ2, so Full Power Perfect Cell does it for me, especially since it's last Cell Goku saw the movements of.Also works with that one guide saying Dabra was weaker than Gohan. I know that(although there might be another two).Why would he need to power up that much to just beat up FPSSJ Gohan? No, that's never confirmed.It could easily be a replacement for SSJ for Gohan.He did say to Gohan, that he should do his SSJ thing, but he went Ultimate instead. |
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| + Yusuke | Mar 17 2014, 12:35 AM Post #40 |
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- He was visibly concerned prior to the blast hitting him. Getting a hit on someone doesn't correlate with their strength. - I'm not ignoring it at all.
He was talking about the fight in general. Just because something is a gag, doesn't mean it should completely disregarded. If your going by that logic, we should disregard that Gotenks's Kamikaze attack blew Buu in to pieces because it's a "gag". My god how I hate it when people use the gag excuse. - Goku sensed Dabura's power and even compared him to Cell. Debunked... - And...? Once again, it's clearly shown that Gohan doesn't have any lightning sparks around him other than the Budokai scene. Toriyama always makes sure to draw SSJ2 correctly as demonstrated in these scans. Gohan as an SSJ2 Spoiler: click to toggle Gohan as an SSJ Spoiler: click to toggle Spoiler: click to toggle Spoiler: click to toggle All three examples shown below are from the Videl VS Spopovitch fight, the Gohan VS Buu fight, and the Gohan VS Dabura fight. All of which Gohan did not have a lighting aura in. Do you think it's a coincidence that their isn't lightning in all these scenes except for the Budokai? No. Even during the Goku VS Majin Vegeta fight, Toriyama made sure to distinguish SSJ from SSJ2 by having Goku have a lightning aura and Majin Vegeta not have one whilst still an SSJ. Spoiler: click to toggle Face it man, Gohan was an SSJ against Dabura. Throw your Daiz material or whatever the hell makes you think Gohan was an SSJ2 but that doesn't change the fact that Toriyama made an effort to show when SSJ2 was used and when it's not. Manga material > Daiz material - So why can't we assume SPC then if were going by all the Cell's? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Wouldn't it be reasonable for Goku to say that Dabura is one the same level as the Cell he fought? It makes much more sense since he has a clear way to measure both the power of Dabura and the Suppressed Cell Goku fought because he had the chance to fight him. If we go by the "all Cell" theory, he very well may be referring to Buff Cell since he was their to witness his power. - Buu powers up however much he see's fit. Remember, he powers up when he's angry so him being in control of how much stronger he gets is unlikely. - BoG begs to differ. Gohan was shown to be an SSJ in the movie even though it doesn't grant any additional power after the ritual. Edited by Yusuke, Mar 17 2014, 12:39 AM.
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| SSJ | Mar 17 2014, 12:37 AM Post #41 |
 
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Actually you're mistaken here Gohan Boo. The Daizenshuu actually contradicts itself. While there is a piece that claims Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, another claims that he only used Super Saiyan. So I'm afraid that won't hold much weight. |
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| + Yusuke | Mar 17 2014, 12:40 AM Post #42 |
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Didn't quite pick up on that. Well there you have it Gohan-Boo. Your Daiz argument is invalid. Edited by Yusuke, Mar 17 2014, 12:44 AM.
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| SSJ | Mar 17 2014, 01:25 AM Post #43 |
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I'm having a fair amount of trouble finding this Daizenshuu article, although many reliable people have told me it existed. I'll continue to search for it. Although more proof for Gohan being SSJ is the coloured manga. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25042 |
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| Gohan Boo | Mar 17 2014, 01:39 AM Post #44 |
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-Fair enough -If you think that, then Hercule is SSJ tier, since he survived a hit from Pure Boo. -How does that debunk my argument?Yes, he did compare him to Cell.That's all there is to it.You added up the ''Cell he fought'' part, when there is none. -Vegeta doesn't have lightning after he KO's Goku.Regardless, just because his aura lacks sparks, doesn't mean he wasn't SSJ2.Vegetto has sparks as a Super Saiyan, Nappa has sparks, Cell has sparks, the latter two obviously not being SSJ2s. Toriyama goes out of his way to have Goku say to Gohan ''Get angry like against Cell'', instead of ''Go SSJ2 like you did one hour ago''.Manga matters more than Daizenshuu, yes, but writing matters more than artwork. -He doesn't mean any amount of power Cell used against them, just the general range, since he is the last super villain they fought.Suppressed Cell level just happens to work, if you think Gohan was FPSSJ. -Fair enough, but why'd Toriyama have him beat up a weaker form of Gohan?Kind of ruins the hype. -That one is more of Toriyama/Watanabe forgetting Ultimate Gohan.I mean, Gotenks goes just SSJ after seeing Ultimate Gohan get beat up. While you are at it, BoG has Beerus state Base Goku is weaker than Freeza.And since Kaioshin can one-shot Freeza.... Daizenshuu doesn't contradict itself, it just doesn't include the Budokai part.It does that several times with many characters's forms. That's just another piece of evidence for your side. Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. Edited by Gohan Boo, Mar 17 2014, 01:45 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Mar 17 2014, 02:09 AM Post #45 |
 
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You mean the two inches Boo's head budged back? Mr. Satan was able to budge Pure Boo enough to make motion lines on him.
Because Goku was so far ahead of what he thought he was capable of. The Saiyans in general were.
It wasn't until later in the ship sequence that he even remembered Gohan's power at the Budokai. There's also the implication that standing ki does not equal fighting ki.
Why was he afraid of him? If he's Super Saiyan 2-tier, someone so far below him shouldn't scare him in the slightest. He should be able to flick his wrist and blow Yakon to bits. He did hold SSjin 2 Gohan in place at the Budokai, after all.
Him talking up the Saiyans would be even more proof that he's nowhere near their level. He even points out Gohan specifically.
The fight was over and he was worn out. He could've easily been a Super Saiyan 1 at that point, then with the revitalization from the senzu bean he powered back up to Super Saiyan 2 for his fight with Boo. It makes more sense than trying to make an inconsistency out of it.
I'd like to see the Chozenshuu excerpt. This is the first time I'm hearing about it. Though it doesn't matter all that much. In the same guidebook (#2), it's stated that Gohan was a normal Super Saiyan, so the guidebook contradicts itself on the matter in the first place. The manga is the first source, though -- not the guidebooks. If the manga shows Super Saiyan, that's what it is, regardless of what the guidebooks say.
The thing is, consistent lightning signifies a Super Saiyan 2. Not one panel like those others you mentioned. Vegeta's aura isn't the same after he knocks out Goku either, lightning excluded. Super Saiyan 1s and Super Saiyan 2s have distinctly different auras.
Do you really think Toriyama would draw an entire fight under a false pretense?
Forgetting would be unlikely, as Toriyama stated he went through the manga before getting to work on the movie. Those examples you gave don't really have relevance to Gohan going Super Saiyan, since the Gotenks one is just idiocy on Gotenks' part and the Base Saiyans/Freeza thing is just one toilet bowl of a debate not suited for this thread.
What do you mean by this? Why would it not include the Budokai part?
I must disagree with you here. It's clear by the fact that they're judging him by his movements that they can't sense his power. |
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